Miss Saigon question

[jasonf]

Posted: 11/11/06 at 11:36pm

Just got back from Miss Saigon at the Bucks County Playhouse (an admirable production that proves you DON'T need a helicopter!). Question - was there in any version of the show a REASON why Kim kills herself? In this production it seemed like it was out of grief for losing Tam -- but I could have SWORN in the original she did it because she thought it was the only way to make Chris take Tam back to America...

[thejcm]

Posted: 11/11/06 at 11:41pm

I've always thought it was to get Chris to take Tam back to America. I don't remember Chris agreeing to take Tam when Kim asks but, when she kills herself, he's forced to.

Then again it's been a couple years since I've seen the show.

[musicaltheater1]

Posted: 11/11/06 at 11:50pm

There is only one official version, which is Kim giving her life so that her son would have a future in the US. If she lives, Tam would have to stay in Bangkok with her. Remember the song "The Confrontation" right before the "American Dream"? Ellen sings "If it was only Tam, I'd take him now. He is your son. We'd make it work somehow. But Chris, she still loves you. How can I have her near?" Then the couple makes a decision and they sing "There's no choice, I think the answer's clear. They'll have to stay in Bangkok and we'll support them here."

There shouldn't be any other version otherwise, it would be deviating from the original book which may be a patent and license issue with Mackintosh.

Updated On: 11/11/06 at 11:50 PM

[shiksa_goddess]

Posted: 11/12/06 at 12:10am

Yeah, it's so that Chris and Ellen will take Tam. I wish they had left the ending the same, where Kim reprises "I'd Give My Life For You." It makes her reasoning clearer. I went with a friend once and she thought that Kim killed herself because she could never be with Chris. It's all about Tam.

[Rose_MacShane]

Posted: 11/12/06 at 12:50am

Her grief over losing Tam? What exactly did they do in this production?

[jasonf]

Posted: 11/12/06 at 11:39am

I don't know what happened here! The production was VERY good - and exactly what I remembered - but something was missing in the end. There was no indication anywhere that Kim was killing herself so Chris would take Tam back to America. There was the scene in the hotel room with Chris and Ellen saying they'd take Tam back (but Kim doesn't know) after Kim confronts Ellen. Then American Dream. Then it went to Kim saying goodbye to Tam - neither Caitie nor I head any reasoning - just her saying to look at her one last time and say goodbye. The engineer came in, took Tam to Chris and Ellen, Kim went behind the curtain and killed herself. If I didn't KNOW the reason, it would seem like it was because she was losing Tam, not as an effort to have him go to America.

[musicaltheater1]

Posted: 11/12/06 at 1:11pm

I didn't see the show you saw and I'm sure it stayed with the original book. There is nothing in the finale that hinted that Kim is going to kill herself so that Tam can go to the US. It was already pretty obvious after her confrontation with Ellen, and from her song while the couple was making a decision for Tam that she won't break her promise to her son. And, in her farewell song, she sings "...our long wait has ended. Smile Tam for you have a father at last...he has come to take you home..." Additionally, it was also mentioned many times in the Boublil and Schonberg interview that their idea for the play came from a famous picture from Vietnam of a mother who gave up her son to be with his father in the US. I hope that helps.

Updated On: 11/12/06 at 01:11 PM

[wickedrentq]

Posted: 11/12/06 at 3:13pm

Right, when I first saw the show, it was obvious to me that her reason was for Tam. I'll give my life for you foreshadows that decision and in addition to Chris & Ellen saying they'd just take Tam, when Kim meets Ellen, she tells her they have to take Tam with them, but Ellen says she could never separate a boy from his mother.

[jasonf]

Posted: 11/12/06 at 7:00pm

That's what I thought it was supposed to be, and I'm glad everyone on here is backing up what I thought. Now I'm wondering if the confusion was the fault of the production or of the book as it stands (because I'll tell you, this production was VERY solid). I did notice that there was no reprise of "I'd Give My Life For You" - which is a book thing, right?

[shiksa_goddess]

Posted: 11/12/06 at 7:03pm

The reprise of "I'd Give My Life For You" was on the OLCR, but was then changed to the new ending. I'm not sure why. To me the finale was fine that way it was. Now it confuses people.

[SweetQintheLights]

Posted: 11/12/06 at 7:05pm

Jason-

My "real home" -not college- is near Bucks County Playhouse. How far do you live from it?

I thought you lived in upstate Jersey.

[musicaltheater1]

Posted: 11/12/06 at 7:23pm

jasonf - There is no reprise of "I'd Give My Life For You."

shiksa_goddess - There is no "I'd Give My Life For You" reprise in the finale in the original London production. It was "Sacred Bird" that was changed to "Little God of My Heart" when it transfered to New York. It was then changed to the current version which is simply called "Finale." The current finale is a blend of "This Is The Hour."

Updated On: 11/12/06 at 07:23 PM

[shiksa_goddess]

Posted: 11/12/06 at 7:53pm

Yeah, it is called Sacred Bird, but Kim does reprise part of "I'd Give My Life For You" in the finale. That's what I meant.

"You will be who you want to be - you
Can choose whatever heaven grants
As long as you can have your chance
I swear I'll give my life for you

No one will stop what I must do
My son, I'll give my life for you"

[jasonf]

Posted: 11/12/06 at 7:58pm

The finale they did was the one on the CSR. She just sings about Chris taking Tam -- and I never realized that it's NOT clear on that version exactly why she kills herself. I liked the OLC version where it's VERY clear that she does it so that Chris has no choice but to take Tam with him. musicaltheater1 - you're exactly right, and that's the version they did. So now, if it's not there in the lyrics (and I just listened to the end again - it's not) - how can a director stage this to make it clear WHY she kills herself?

SweetQ -- I'm about 45 minutes from Bucks County in Twin Rivers. It's cliche, but it's right off exit 8 on the Turnpike.

[SweetQintheLights]

Posted: 11/12/06 at 8:33pm

Oh, cool.

[eatlasagna]

Posted: 11/12/06 at 8:47pm

jasonf... not to be rude... but you're confusing me... did they take anything out of the music from the CSR in this production you saw??? because to me it's VERY clear why she kills herself... I'd Give My Life For You foreshadows it... her dialogue at the end of the confrontation scene pretty much says it all... i mean it's pretty much implied that she kills herself for Tam so that he can go to America with his father because all she ever wanted for Tam was a better life than he's known.... and as for the audience KNOWING she's going to kill herself, that was exactly why the Sacred Bird was cut because they felt like it was giving away the ending essentially... as whereas the currentl FINALE doesn't... and believe me.. i've taken over 20 people to see this show and it amazes me how they don't know she's going to kill herself, so i'm guessing they made a good choice on that one...

[jasonf]

Posted: 11/12/06 at 8:59pm

I don't think they took anything out. I remember seeing the show on Broadway and having no questions about why she killed herself - it was so Chris would have to take Tam to America. In this version, it did NOT seem like that. The impression both of us had was that she did it out of grief for not being able to be with Chris/losing Tam. It's clear that it was her choice that he go with her, but I remembered her killing herself so that Chris had no choice BUT to take Tam -- the way it played here, she was killing herself because there was no other option but for him to go - it wasn't done as a maneuver to force Tam to go. I know it's a fine line, but it does make a difference in the interpretation of her final act - using her suicide to force the situation makes her more of a tragic hero, and her death far more meaningful, than if she does it simply because Tam is leaving/she can't be with Chris.

[musicaltheater1]

Posted: 11/12/06 at 8:59pm

Got that right, shiksa_goddess. :) Yes, the Sacred Bird has a few lines of IGMLFY therefore, it can be classified as a reprise within that song. I'm glad I'm not the only one here that likes Saigon.

jasonf- I take it that was your first Saigon show? I thought it was pretty clear why she killed herself and I've seen all 3 versions. "Sacred Bird" may be clearer on her intent but the composers thought it gave away too much of the ending. Pay attention to the "Confrontation" song. Chris and Ellen decided to support Tam and Kim in Bangkok since they cannot take him home to the US. At the same time, you hear Kim sings "I Still Taste Your Kisses"...which eludes to her strong will to fulfill her dream regardless of the situation, which is for Tam to be with his father in the US. And, she knows that cannot happen with her around since Chris has already married. I guess with the new "Finale," it goes without saying what her true intent was. And maybe, it would be clearer if one watches the show. Did that make sense? :)

Updated On: 11/12/06 at 08:59 PM

[eatlasagna]

Posted: 11/12/06 at 9:06pm

also... as much as i love sacred bird... the creators were right... it's too religious/mthical of a song... and that's so weird to hear... as beautiful as it is...

and once again... it goes to show that miss saigon is a show that needs FANTASTIC direction and a great cast... because this show can fail on so many levels if there's no passion with the chracters or any good direction... i hate that people think this is a helicopter production musical because it's not... when you look at the core of the story it's so beautful and passionate... but people look at all the hype... aarggh... i have seen the production with an OK Kim and Chris and their passion and chemistry was HORRIBLE... made the show so damn boring to watch... and it felt like the love songs were rehearsed.... aargh.... but then i've seen clips of lea salonga and will chase... YOWZER! that chemistry was electrifying and it made the story so much more emotional and powerful..... I MISS SAIGON! haha

[musicaltheater1]

Posted: 11/12/06 at 9:15pm

You said it, eatlasagna. I've seen awful actors that turned the show into an empty bombastic extravaganza. I guess that applies to any plays. But yes..I do miss it. I hope they bring it back...starting with the tour at least, then a revival on Broadway, and finally the movie Mackintosh has mentioned a long time ago.

[jasonf]

Posted: 11/12/06 at 10:10pm

As I said, I saw the show on Broadway so this wasn't my first time, though it was my girlfriend's. I had to explain why Kim killed herself, and I know that if I hadn't seen the show before I wouldn't have gotten it either. I think the original version was just clearer.

The production at Bucks County was VERY well done. The actors were solid, and they proved that the helicopter isn't needed (it was done with two VERY bright lights that descended from the flies along with the chopper sound, as well as floodlights searching the audience - very effective.

I have very mixed feelings about the show. On the one hand, I do love the music. However, the characters are completely one dimensional -- no one does anything in the show that they're not more or less FORCED to do with the exception of Chris and Ellen deciding to take Tam (again, why making it clear that Kim kills herself because she thinks it forces the decision is a much stronger choice). Honestly, none of the characters have any sort of personality at all. The other problem is some of the lyrics are just down-right awful. The worst offender (and I can't believe they didn't fix this in the "new" version): "Let me tell you the way I WAS, BACK when I WAS a different man, BACK when I didn't have a clue who I AM" --- AM??? Geez!!!!

[musicaltheater1]

Posted: 11/12/06 at 10:19pm

I agree, jasonf. Love the play because of the tragic ending, the love story, the score, the visual stunning effects, and most of all, the original actors but, some of the lyrics were quite awful like in The Heat Is On, Now That I've Seen Her, Confrontation, and although I love Sun and Moon Reprise, the last few lines were quite bad..."I cry no more, I know you're here, I reach your door"...what the heck?

[jasonf]

Posted: 11/12/06 at 10:29pm

The lyrics WERE translated from French, right? Was it the same guy who did the Les Mis translation? If not, why didn't they just get the same guy - Les Mis isn't perfect, but the lyrics are much less awkward than in MS!

[musicaltheater1]

Posted: 11/12/06 at 10:54pm

The Les Miz translation was refined by Herbert Kreztmer.
Saigon was originally written in French and Boublil translated it in English. Although his translation was fine, it was missing the American idioms. Kreztmer was originally selected by Mackintosh to work on the lyrics of Saigon but, he was busy working with Weber on Phantom. Mackintosh then turned to Richard Maltby Jr. instead. He's an American director-lyricist with whom he worked with on Weber's "Song and Dance." Maltby collaborated with the composers to rehash the lyrics completely. I think they over did it in some songs because they sound a little corny. That's probably why it went through more changes. The current libretto still has some of the corny lines from Maltby and Boublil. They also focused too much on what was the current idiom in the 60's and failed to realize that the lyrics may not go to well with the audience of the 20th/21st century. Regardless, the play is still quite captivating.

Updated On: 11/13/06 at 10:54 PM

[msls777]

Posted: 11/12/06 at 11:42pm

Just a few nit-picky things:

Herbert Kretzmer claims that about 1/3 of the original french text was a translation... he did do quite a bit by himself. For example, the original French Les Mis started with "At the End of the Day" so ... a lot was "conceived" by Kretzmer.

Kretzmer was approached by Boublil to do the lyrics, however, he did not turn it down because of Phantom of the Opera... which is quite clear since Hart wrote them. Kretzmer was offered to be the lyricist of Phantom, but he ended up urging Webber to try to change some of the characters, which would've delayed production,, and Webber didn't want that.

Similarly, he wanted to do "Miss Saigon" and wanted it to succeed. He is quoted in Behr's book as saying "You should have an American who could reach for the idioms instinctively. I'm a South African born resident of London, not a US lyrics writer." Also, it was clear to him that Boublil wanted to write the english lyrics with him, so it wouldn't be exactly like Les Miserables where he worked by himself. Meanwhile, Mackintosh had been contacting Maltby, who only took the job after hearing the beautiful score. In fact, he thought B&S were crazy at first to do a story on Vietnam, but with of course, hearing the score and seeing other Vietnam movies come out, he took the job.

Also, I don't think Maltby is the reason why there's the "big mac" line or anything in Heat is On in Saigon. Once again, Boublil did a major part of the lyrics. One problem with Boublil is that he doesn't know where the accents go, so that's where Maltby helped a lot... (Maltby was quoted in the book as trying to explain the "big mac" accents in relationship to some other accented word, so I think the big mac idea was Boublil's, although you can't be sure). In addition to this, Boublil usually got his way with lyrics. For example, Maltby really hated the lyrics for "The Movie in My Mind" but they were kept in. But Maltby, I believe, is quite a genius with words... I certainly respect his lyrics, e.g. in Baby, and even in Song and Dance.

And in "The Confrontation" actually, were Maltby's favorite lyrics... I think it was actually one of the better lyrics in the musical (as opposed to what someone else said). Especially, it has that line where the lyrics go "So I wanted to save her, protect her, Christ I am American, How could I fail to do good?" which really shows the perception at the time. And uh, the lyrics "Let me tell you the way it was, back when I was a different man, back when I didn't have a clue who I am" make perfect sense. Because the person he is currently is not the person he was back then. You obviously can't say "back when I didn't have a clue who I was" because he's changed now. And similarly, you can't say, "Let me tell you the way it is, back when I am a different man" since it's trying to portray the past tense. While the last statement of course references his current being.

And yeah, on that note, I heard Maltby has been contacted to help re-work The Pirate Queen, which I hope makes it better. I seriously love Boublil and Schonberg and recently saw The Pirate Queen, and despite what others say, I liked the show, though some story telling parts were not done well... so I think Maltby will really offer a new view to the show and use part of his "genius" to make it better. I certainly believe that Boublil is already very good -- possibly even a master of the English language -- but sometimes you just need another view point to make a show better.
Updated On: 11/12/06 at 11:42 PM