Next to Normal with an all-black cast- Page 5
Next to Normal with an all-black cast
#100re: Next to Normal with an all-black cast
Posted: 8/2/09 at 12:23am
I have to agree with Kelly2 when she says that race matters to a lot more people than we'd care to admit. I don't think, however, that there is a need for the producers of any show to pander to the lowest common denominator. maybe someone will come in and be a little turned off by an all Black cast, or an all Asian cast, or a mixed race cast. but maybe that same person will have such an appreciation for whatever show they're seeing, and the story there, that it won't matter what ethnicity the cast is.
This is not Ragtime, or M. Butterfly, or even Finian's Rainbow. this is a modern story about a family that could be anywhere. race really doesn't make a big difference.
When I see the phrase "the ____ estate", I imagine a vast mansion in the country full of monocled men and high-collared women receiving letters about productions across the country and doing spit-takes at whatever they contain.
-Kad
#101re: Next to Normal with an all-black cast
Posted: 8/2/09 at 12:27am
" this is a modern story about a family that could be anywhere. race really doesn't make a big difference."
For those select few who aren't in the majority of modern idiots, yeah, they'll be able to see beyond color and still appreciate the show. I want to believe I'm one of those people as well, as are, I'm sure, most people on the board. I'd love to believe that the majority of the population would feel the same way, but I'd also love to believe the majority of the population would let gays and lesbians get married. Sadly, I have been struck down on that one, many times, so...I'm more of a "wait and see" until I believe it kinda gal.
"Get mad, then get over it." - Colin Powell
#102re: Next to Normal with an all-black cast
Posted: 8/2/09 at 12:42amI know I'm optimistic, even naive at times, but if it's not there, how can we expect something to change? I mean, if plays and movies and tv shows and music aren't challenging conventions, then when will they change? if 100 people go into a show with a mixed cast, and 3 people leave with their attitudes changed, isn't that still something?
When I see the phrase "the ____ estate", I imagine a vast mansion in the country full of monocled men and high-collared women receiving letters about productions across the country and doing spit-takes at whatever they contain.
-Kad
#103re: Next to Normal with an all-black cast
Posted: 8/2/09 at 12:52amYeah, it's just hard to get people to sink millions of dollars into something that's gonna change minds and challenge conventions, but probably lose money. Next to Normal is the one in a hundred show that made it to Broadway, how many other shows like it or shows even more daring don't make it out of someone's apartment because no one will pay to put it on? Even Next to Normal had to sanitize itself somewhat. I found the off-broadway production much bolder.
"Get mad, then get over it." - Colin Powell
millie_dillmount
Broadway Legend Joined: 4/22/04
#104re: Next to Normal with an all-black cast
Posted: 8/2/09 at 1:01am
'A saddening majority of people polled don't know the capital of Illinois isn't Chicago, and can't find Iran on a map, you think those people can understand the complexities of colorblind casting?'
I guess the part that I disagree with you on how people cannot understand the complexities of colorblind casting in regards to this specific show. Sure, had the family in the show been African American or Latino, it may have attracted different audiences and brought in new perspectives. But I don't think the message of the show would have been any less shocking, especially since this show tackles mental illness, a problem universal to all Americans no matter what race, and how it can affect the ones you love.
I used to take an abnormal psychology class, and we watched case study videos of people with mental illness. Each one was shocking/intriguing, no matter what the race. I can see past a person's color because mental illness in itself can be extremely eye-opening and shocking. Next to Normal showcases how mental illness affects the 'perfect' American family. 'Perfect' families are not just white families. What upset people was that it was almost as if you were implying that this wasn't the case, since apparently the message would be less shocking if it was an African-American family.
If the American general public is turned off by the idea of a bi-racial/ethnic family in Next to Normal, it is really unfortunate.
In terms of the complexities of color blind casting, the situation would be different for a show such as, say, Jersey Boys, where audiences may distracted to see an African-American play Frankie Valli. Not because he is less talented, but because the real Frankie Valli was not African-American.
That said, I am generally open to color blind casting.
"We like to snark around here. Sometimes we actually talk about theater...but we try not to let that get in our way." - dramamama611
Updated On: 8/2/09 at 01:01 AM
#105re: Next to Normal with an all-black cast
Posted: 8/2/09 at 1:10am
millie, like it or not, the majority of Americans are white. What I meant to say, and I'm sorry for miswording what I meant, was that the majority audience for this show (like the majority of Americans) would be caucasian and not as open-minded as we'd all like them to be. I think the majority audience would have more difficulty connecting to the message of the show if it were a family of another race, as sad as that is. I don't condone that and I'm not saying I personally still wouldn't be affected by the show, but again, unfortunately, most people don't have the open-minded view of race that people on this board have.
Maybe I take a more cynical view than most, and I do wish I could be more optimistic like some of you, but life-experience tells me differently.
"Get mad, then get over it." - Colin Powell
Updated On: 8/2/09 at 01:10 AM
poochie4
Chorus Member Joined: 12/4/08
#106re: Next to Normal with an all-black cast
Posted: 8/2/09 at 1:38am
I hate to interject, but I really can't help myself. So basically Kelly2 you're saying that although you disagree with the underlying reasons you believe that an all-black/minority version of Next to Normal wouldn't be as successful (both economically and thematically) because the majority of the theatre going audience is white and would therefore not be able to relate to the Goodman family's struggles.
Nothing to do with optimism or pessism, but I have to diagree with you on the basis that I think we can all name a hundred different shows or movies (some very successful) that deal with African-American/minority characters and still move people. Why do you think that a majority of people have to see themselves exactly in a character to empathize with them? I am nothing like Natalie, but boy does her plight gut-punch me. I wish you would share with us what experiences in your life would lead you to believe that a "majority" of Americans would not be able to empathize with an African-American Diana.
I am really having a hard time wrapping me head around your statement that having a minority cast would change the effect of the show on the audience. While I may concede that a very, very small percentage of people may choose not to see the show (sad as that may be), I don't think it would ultimately change the effect it has on those who choose to.
Do you think that having an African-American Billy Elliot would kill the success of that show? Change how people felt about Billy? I sort of get what you're saying about race giving more of backstory as to what might inform a character (struggles they may have had, family situations, etc), but I think what most people are saying here is that in a lot of cases it doesn't matter or overwhelmingly affect the piece. And in this one is doesn't.
Finally, what about The Lion King...sure they're "playing" Lions, but really do you think people miss the fact that they're black. That show still packs them in after all these years and it has an all-black cast. So really...a "majority" of Americans wouldn't pay $120 to see African American actors...really???
Updated On: 8/2/09 at 01:38 AM
#107re: Next to Normal with an all-black cast
Posted: 8/2/09 at 1:41am^ hasn't there been a black Billy in London? I swear I was just reading something about that.
When I see the phrase "the ____ estate", I imagine a vast mansion in the country full of monocled men and high-collared women receiving letters about productions across the country and doing spit-takes at whatever they contain.
-Kad
#108re: Next to Normal with an all-black cast
Posted: 8/2/09 at 1:48am
It's different because 120$ is a hell of a lot more of an investment than 10$ to go see a movie or the NOTHING that it costs you to see a TV show. If you think money doesn't change a lot of things for people, you're crazy. And it isn't that people won't pay to see actors of another race. I was speaking to THIS SPECIFIC SHOW and it's SPECIFIC MESSAGE. And like I said, people can feel free to disagree with me and be more optimistic about the way the world is and the way Americans think than I am. I'd love to live in that world.
"Get mad, then get over it." - Colin Powell
Updated On: 8/2/09 at 01:48 AM
poochie4
Chorus Member Joined: 12/4/08
#109re: Next to Normal with an all-black cast
Posted: 8/2/09 at 2:00am
First of all, let's forget the economic argument about whether or not people would buy tickets to see this show if it had minority actors. We could debate for years about the logic of Broadway theatre-going habits.
What I, and I think others, are honestly curious about is why you think in this SPECIFIC instance that having actors of other races would affect the way people are affect by this show. Like I said, I understand what you're saying about race giving people some idea about the backstory of a character, but I really don't feel in this piece that having minority actors changes how people would feel about the effect mentall illness has on this family.
And let's for argument sake say that David Stone paid a bunch of random people to see an all-black version of Next to Normal. Do you honestly believe people would walk out feeling differently about the piece if it were a black family as opposed to a white family? You do, don't you? I want specific, recent examples of why you believe this to be true.
Updated On: 8/2/09 at 02:00 AM
#110re: Next to Normal with an all-black cast
Posted: 8/2/09 at 2:07am
"Is mental illness a subject matter that people must see in someone they relate to in order to be effected by?"
No, I think because the show claims to represent the "average American family", there are a lot of ignorant people who would have pretty specific expectations for that racially.
I think it's that hard of a concept to understand.
"Get mad, then get over it." - Colin Powell
millie_dillmount
Broadway Legend Joined: 4/22/04
#111re: Next to Normal with an all-black cast
Posted: 8/2/09 at 2:11am
Poochie, Kelly2 brought up an idea earlier that because the show dealt with something as controversial as mental illness, because it happened to the 'perfect whitebread family,' it made the story more shocking. This implied that if it happened to a minority family, it would be less shocking. Many disagreed.
Kelly2 was just addressing this specific show and wasn't making a generalized statement against all Broadway shows.
"We like to snark around here. Sometimes we actually talk about theater...but we try not to let that get in our way." - dramamama611
Updated On: 8/2/09 at 02:11 AM
#112re: Next to Normal with an all-black cast
Posted: 8/2/09 at 2:12amI think you all should get together for a beer. A n2n Beer Summit.
millie_dillmount
Broadway Legend Joined: 4/22/04
#113re: Next to Normal with an all-black cast
Posted: 8/2/09 at 2:13am
I'll bring the Sam Adams.
"We like to snark around here. Sometimes we actually talk about theater...but we try not to let that get in our way." - dramamama611
Updated On: 8/2/09 at 02:13 AM
#114re: Next to Normal with an all-black cast
Posted: 8/2/09 at 2:15amWho's going to be Joe Biden and get stuck drinking the non-alcoholic brew?
#115re: Next to Normal with an all-black cast
Posted: 8/2/09 at 2:19amLOL poor Joe Biden. I'm all for a N2N beer summit.
"Get mad, then get over it." - Colin Powell
#116re: Next to Normal with an all-black cast
Posted: 8/2/09 at 10:30am
Sadly, I think the show wouldn't fare as well with an all-black cast because white people wouldn't want to see it en masse (not like they're seeing this show en masse anyway, but, these are my thoughts.)
IT'S UNFORTUNATE!!!
Look at the recent revival of "Cat on a Hot Tin Roof."
Everywhere like such as.
#117re: Next to Normal with an all-black cast
Posted: 8/2/09 at 10:34amExcept that Cat on a Hot Tin Roof made a boatload of money for the producers.
#118re: Next to Normal with an all-black cast
Posted: 8/2/09 at 11:55amWell, most people didn't think N2N on Broadway would even last through the end of summer, so they're not doing so bad. Most people on here didn't even think they'd have an opening night.
"Get mad, then get over it." - Colin Powell
#119re: Next to Normal with an all-black cast
Posted: 8/2/09 at 12:19pm
The recent revival of CAT ON A HOT TIN ROOF played to a packed theatre every week, and that was when Broadway was "dying" because of the economy, so I imagine maybe "i am the one" was being a bit tongue-in-cheek (hard to tell on a message board).
Either way, Kelly2 at first you said that the show's whole message would and I quote-"of course"-change if a black woman or a black family were to inhabit these roles. Now you are saying that it would just change other peoples' view? So which one is it?
This thread had the potential to be interesting and some good suggestions were being made. Oh well.
I insist that Daphne Rubin-Vega needs to play the role, and that in 5 years from now, Anika Noni Rose should start talks to play the role in LA 
"Some people can thrive and bloom living life in a living room, that's perfect for some people of one hundred and five. But I at least gotta try, when I think of all the sights that I gotta see, all the places I gotta play, all the things that I gotta be at"
#120re: Next to Normal with an all-black cast
Posted: 8/2/09 at 12:22pm
"Either way, Kelly2 at first you said that the show's whole message would and I quote-"of course"-change if a black woman or a black family were to inhabit these roles. Now you are saying that it would just change other peoples' view? So which one is it? "
I already said that I didn't think I phrased what I meant properly and explained myself. Read the thread before posting, maybe.
"Get mad, then get over it." - Colin Powell
#121re: Next to Normal with an all-black cast
Posted: 8/2/09 at 1:41pm
Kelly2, I'm really sorry but arguing about your racist points of view at this point is like running in the special olympics. Even if you win, you're still retarded.
This is probably the most hypocritical statement I've ever read on BWW. You of all people have no right crying bigotry.
I think we can all name a hundred different shows or movies (some very successful) that deal with African-American/minority characters and still move people.
Start that list. Then we'll see how many of the completely not racist and open-minded posters here have complained about the audience behavior at those shows.
Like a firework unexploded
Wanting life but never knowing how
Wanting life but never knowing how
#122re: Next to Normal with an all-black cast
Posted: 8/2/09 at 1:54pm
Kelly2, the basis of your argument is that "the show claims to represent the average American family."
I'm sorry, but where is that distinction made? I believe the opening lyric to the show is, "We're the perfect loving family, so adoring." There's a very specific difference between that and the implication you're deriving from "the average American family." In what world is one supposed to assume that a "perfect loving family" is contextually supposed to be white?
Further more, the phrase "average American family" is not used in any of the press material either, so I'm a bit put back as to how you've determined that as a message the show is deliberately sending either in context or in marketing.
I think you're trying to say that there is added shock value in the surface normalcy of the characters within the story, but the correlation between the majority of America being white (even though minorities are fast approaching the majority) and the claim that the Goodmans represent the "average American family" is coming from you, not the show.
Tonya Pinkins: Then we had a "Lot's Wife" last June that was my personal favorite. I'm still trying to get them to let me sing it at some performance where we get to sing an excerpt that's gone.
Tony Kushner: You can sing it at my funeral.
Tony Kushner: You can sing it at my funeral.
#123re: Next to Normal with an all-black cast
Posted: 8/2/09 at 2:00pmsomethingwicked, now you're just arguing semantics. The show also refuses to disclose that it's about mental illness in any of it's marketing or press materials, which is another argument for another day about whether or not that's okay, so I'm sorry if I'm not basing any argument grounded in truth or fact on what the show chooses to advertise.
"Get mad, then get over it." - Colin Powell
#124re: Next to Normal with an all-black cast
Posted: 8/2/09 at 2:05pm
Semantics are extremely important in this instance. There's a big difference between what the show "claims" and what you derive from it.
What evidence do you have that "the show claims to represent the average American family" in any way? That's like putting words in someone's mouth, or the difference between saying, "CATS claims to be an allegory for World War II" and "I think CATS is an allegory for World War II." They're two very distinct things, especially when used as the basis for a pretty radical opinion (as you're expressing.)
I'm not strictly talking about the marketing material either. You bring up mental illness- that can clearly be identified as a major part of the show within the text, but what you're saying can't because it's you who is expressing it, not the authors of the piece.
It's fine if that's your point of view, but you can't tag that onto something the show "claims" when it doesn't.
Tonya Pinkins: Then we had a "Lot's Wife" last June that was my personal favorite. I'm still trying to get them to let me sing it at some performance where we get to sing an excerpt that's gone.
Tony Kushner: You can sing it at my funeral.
Updated On: 8/2/09 at 02:05 PM
Tony Kushner: You can sing it at my funeral.
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