O'Brien's Reason for Cutting the Final Scene of Act 1 in
O'Brien's Reason for Cutting the Final Scene of Act 1 in
Joined: 12/31/69
#1O'Brien's Reason for Cutting the Final Scene of Act 1 in
Posted: 5/10/18 at 2:31pm
Very nice article in the New York Times about Joshua Henry and how his performance has been changing since becoming a father (https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/10/theater/joshua-henry-carousel-billy-bigelow.html). However, towards the end Jack O'Brien is talking and here is an excerpt.
"In the first weeks of previews, Mr. O’Brien recalled, he had often been moved “but not stunned” by what struck him as a concert-perfect, too-safe performance of the song. “The weekend that the baby was born, it was like a dam burst inside him,” Mr. O’Brien said. “I didn’t say anything about it. He just started to relate, I think, to the depth of his own feelings, and wow. You know, there’s another scene in Act 1 as written, and we decided we were idiots to do it, because he was hitting the high point in the show, and what did you want to see after that? Nothing.” So in this “Carousel,” that’s when the first-act curtain falls, with the company’s festive departure for the clambake cut from the show."
Not really a good enough reason to cut something IMHO.
#2O'Brien's Reason for Cutting the Final Scene of Act 1 in
Posted: 5/10/18 at 2:36pm
No bueno, Jack. No bueno. I mean, yes I understand it was great, but still. I want to know how Ted Chapin feels.
"Ok ok ok ok ok ok ok. Have you guys heard about fidget spinners!?" ~Patti LuPone
GeorgeandDot
Broadway Legend Joined: 12/13/16
#3O'Brien's Reason for Cutting the Final Scene of Act 1 in
Posted: 5/10/18 at 2:38pm
<<edited by BWW staff for a personal attack>>
Updated On: 5/10/18 at 02:38 PM
#4O'Brien's Reason for Cutting the Final Scene of Act 1 in
Posted: 5/10/18 at 2:38pm
That sounds like removing a problem rather than solving it.
"...everyone finally shut up, and the audience could enjoy the beginning of the Anatevka Pogram in peace."
#5O'Brien's Reason for Cutting the Final Scene of Act 1 in
Posted: 5/10/18 at 2:46pmCan we find a way to make sure that this fool never directs on Broadway again?
"There’s nothing quite like the power and the passion of Broadway music. "
#6O'Brien's Reason for Cutting the Final Scene of Act 1 in
Posted: 5/10/18 at 3:03pm“It’s like there’s a horse loose in the hospital” jack O’Brien is that horse.
My father (AIDS)
My sister (AIDS)
My uncle and my cousin and her best friend (AIDS, AIDS, AIDS)
The gays and the straights
And the white and the spades
broadwayboy223
Broadway Legend Joined: 7/2/14
#7O'Brien's Reason for Cutting the Final Scene of Act 1 in
Posted: 5/10/18 at 3:13pmTranslation: "I'm a horrible director and didnt know how to stage the last scene"
BroadwayConcierge
Broadway Legend Joined: 7/24/15
#8O'Brien's Reason for Cutting the Final Scene of Act 1 in
Posted: 5/10/18 at 3:18pm
By O'Brien's logic, we should have an intermission after every really good number in a show.
<<edited by BWW staff for a personal attack>>
#9O'Brien's Reason for Cutting the Final Scene of Act 1 in
Posted: 5/10/18 at 3:22pmIn all fairness, I also feel that Act I should end with Soliloquy. When I directed the show myself, I tried to have the final moment of the act be on Julie and her concern and feeling of isolation, but really, why not just end on one of the greatest musical theater solos ever written?
Sondheimite
Broadway Legend Joined: 12/5/14
#10O'Brien's Reason for Cutting the Final Scene of Act 1 in
Posted: 5/10/18 at 3:42pm
These forms read like a censored book at a Christian college now. Edited for a personal attack? This board SUCKS now. And, in case you're wondering, this IS a personal attack against this board. Some 1984 garbage...
Have fun when there's no one left to look at your ever encroaching obnoxious ads, Broadwayworld.
Broadway World's Fireman.
BroadwayConcierge
Broadway Legend Joined: 7/24/15
#11O'Brien's Reason for Cutting the Final Scene of Act 1 in
Posted: 5/10/18 at 4:04pmI can’t call somebody an “idiot” now without being censored? Jeez Louise.
#12O'Brien's Reason for Cutting the Final Scene of Act 1 in
Posted: 5/10/18 at 4:13pm
Sondheimite and BroadwayConcierge, one of the things that users have said repeatedly over the last few days is that they would like transparency and explanations as to what is deleted from this board. So, rather than removing entire posts-- which often robs the board of other valuable contributions in those posts-- we are making it clear when an action has been taken.
We know that some people will complain about that, but others will complain if we simply delete and don't address, and still others will complain if we take no action at all. We understand that everyone has an opinion, and we welcome that.
So, when possible, we will leave a post up with the note that any content that violates our rules has been removed. If the post as a whole comes down, we will inform the poster via private message.
If you have other suggestions as to what might be a best practice for how to address things like this, please feel free to send me a message.
GeorgeandDot
Broadway Legend Joined: 12/13/16
#13O'Brien's Reason for Cutting the Final Scene of Act 1 in
Posted: 5/10/18 at 4:14pmI said that someone had said something that was racist and they censored the word "racist." I'm laughing so hard.
#14O'Brien's Reason for Cutting the Final Scene of Act 1 in
Posted: 5/10/18 at 4:16pm
...I think the fact that moderators feel that a poster calling a director an "idiot" for their choices is something that needs to be taken care of is the issue here.
Particularly when, say, there are over a dozen spam messages in the Off-Topic board that have been there for over an hour.
"...everyone finally shut up, and the audience could enjoy the beginning of the Anatevka Pogram in peace."
BroadwayConcierge
Broadway Legend Joined: 7/24/15
#15O'Brien's Reason for Cutting the Final Scene of Act 1 in
Posted: 5/10/18 at 4:19pmBWWMatt, the transparency is great, and I appreciate the steps you've been taking toward it. My issue is that you guys seem to be deciding what warrants being taken down without grounds. What's the difference between my calling a director an "idiot" and an earlier user calling him a "fool" (in a post which has been left up above)? Does one term—both of which are directly critical—simply prickle your skin less?
#16O'Brien's Reason for Cutting the Final Scene of Act 1 in
Posted: 5/10/18 at 4:48pm
BroadwayConcierge said: "BWWMatt, the transparency is great, and I appreciate the steps you've been taking toward it. My issue is that you guys seem to be deciding what warrants being taken down without grounds. What's the difference between my calling a director an "idiot" and an earlier user calling him a "fool" (in a post which has been left up above)? Does one term—both of which are directly critical—simply prickle your skin less?"
Honestly, in this case, yes. This is obviously not a science (not that it's art either), but when considering what is or isn't a "personal attack," to me, you have to consider both words, whether something is "personal," and if it is an "attack."
So, yes, while both "fool" and "idiot" are obviously personal, I do think "idiot" is more of an attack than "fool" is. Now, I will give you that since both were used discussing an individuals work that we probably couldn't have aired more on the side of leniency there. I know everyone has their own opinion on how they would like to see the boards run, but we are trying. Certainly we will make mistakes, we are human, but we genuinely want to learn from those mistakes so that we can avoid making them again in the future.
BroadwayConcierge
Broadway Legend Joined: 7/24/15
#17O'Brien's Reason for Cutting the Final Scene of Act 1 in
Posted: 5/10/18 at 4:55pm
BWWMatt said: "Honestly, in this case, yes."
But then Matt, respectfully, that's a you problem. I paid a considerable amount of money to see Carousel on Broadway and I think I reserve the right to call out what I think was "idiotic" direction. I'm resentful of the fact that I have to think of the least offensive term to criticize something I paid to see on Broadway which I thought was unbelievably poor in quality. Unless I'm crossing the line into hate speech or outright slander, I think calling a seasoned director's direction "idiotic" is completely warranted by a ticketbuyer and theatergoer in a discussion forum that is intended to discuss theatre.
I understand that you guys are trying better moderating procedures going forward, but when it comes to someone expressing their experience at a show which they paid money to see, I wish you would give them the ability to express themselves frankly and earnestly. Being "mean" is not the same as being racist or sexist or derogatory.
yfs
Featured Actor Joined: 11/1/13
#18O'Brien's Reason for Cutting the Final Scene of Act 1 in
Posted: 5/10/18 at 4:59pm
broadwayboy223 said: "Translation: "I'm a horrible director and didnt know how to stage the last scene""
You can disagree with the choice, and you can even say he should not have ben allowed to make the choice. but declaring Jack O'Brien a "horrible director" seems patently silly and uncalled for. He's had a distinguished 40 year career directing everything from Stoppard to Shakespeare to Hairspray, and often (Invention of Love) brilliantly. I'm sure he could and did stage the last scene of Act One (it's not a particularly tough one) capably, and then cut it. Is it a wise or valid choice? Arguable, but in every John Raitt tour I ever saw of Carousel (and I saw a few) it was cut, so it's not a new idea. Does it define Jack O'Brien as a "horrible director"? Don't be ridiculous.
JSquared2
Broadway Legend Joined: 3/23/17
#19O'Brien's Reason for Cutting the Final Scene of Act 1 in
Posted: 5/10/18 at 5:05pm
BroadwayConcierge said: "BWWMatt said: "Honestly, in this case, yes."
But then Matt, respectfully, that's ayouproblem.I paid a considerable amount of money to seeCarouselon Broadway and I think I reservethe right to call out what I think was "idiotic" direction. I'm resentful of the fact that I have to think of the least offensiveterm to criticize something I paid to see on Broadway which I thought was unbelievably poor in quality. Unless I'm crossing the line into hate speech or outright slander, I think calling a seasoned director's direction "idiotic" is completely warranted by a ticketbuyer and theatergoer in a discussion forum that is intended to discuss theatre.
I understand that you guys are trying better moderating procedures going forward, but when it comes to someone expressing theirexperience at a show which they paid money to see, I wish you would give them the ability to express themselves frankly and earnestly. Being "mean" is not the same as being racist or sexist orderogatory."
Now THAT'S something I would consider "idiotic". Basing your "right" to be as offensive as you like because you paid "a considerable amount of money" to see something. Does that mean that the people who buy at TKTS can only be 50% as offensive (or even 40% in some cases)? Do the people who are comped have to not be offensive at all?
BroadwayConcierge
Broadway Legend Joined: 7/24/15
#20O'Brien's Reason for Cutting the Final Scene of Act 1 in
Posted: 5/10/18 at 5:09pm
How do you know how much money I paid to see the show, JSquared? Do you know that I didn't buy a ticket through TKTS or TDF?
Regardless, my point is that if I pay even a single penny to see a Broadway show, I should have the right to discuss it frankly with others, including on this forum. I'm just irked that I paid money, saw an element of the show I personally found "idiotic" (which is, truthfully, putting O'Brien's direction lightly), and am being told it's too mean for me to use that word. That I can criticize the show, yes, but I have to use "less attack-y sounding" language.
#21O'Brien's Reason for Cutting the Final Scene of Act 1 in
Posted: 5/10/18 at 5:14pm
BWWMatt, I think it's important to take context into more consideration. BroadwayConcierge was using the term "idiot" to describe O'Brien's ARTISTIC decisions. He wasn't saying that O'Brien was an idiot for something he did in his personal life. He didn't say that he met O'Brien at a party and found him to be an idiot. The context makes it very clear that the comment was about O'Brien as an artist.
Updated On: 5/10/18 at 05:14 PM#22O'Brien's Reason for Cutting the Final Scene of Act 1 in
Posted: 5/10/18 at 5:15pm
BroadwayConcierge said: "I think calling a seasoned director's direction "idiotic" is completely warranted by a ticketbuyer and theatergoer in a discussion forum that is intended to discuss theatre."
Believe it or not, I 100% agree with you, and I think you have perfectly articulated the line between what we think is acceptable, and what maybe isn't. If you had worded the post in question like you did above, it would not have been an issue for us at all (even though, I again think we probably could have let it slide the first time). While it seems semantic to some, there is a difference for us in "attacking" (and of course I'm using that term loosely) a person's work, and "attacking" that person.
The same is true in the other thread, where we edited or deleted people calling each other racist. While that is obviously a level or 12 up from calling someone an idiot, there is a big difference between saying someone is racist, and saying that something someone says/believes is racist.
I get that this seems like we are splitting hairs here on this, but I truly believe that if you call someone a racist (for example), that ends the discussion whether you want it to or not, because it makes someone automatically defensive.
However, if you say that you believe that what the other person thinks is racist (and then hopefully explain why), that leaves the other person the opportunity to step back and disassociate with what was said, so that the dialogue can continue in a hopefully positive manner.
So, in neither case were we trying to "censor" anyone's thoughts about "Carousel" or from calling out opinions that they felt were racist. We just want to keep all threads on a plane where we are discussing the topics, and not insulting others. I hope that makes sense.
BroadwayConcierge
Broadway Legend Joined: 7/24/15
#23O'Brien's Reason for Cutting the Final Scene of Act 1 in
Posted: 5/10/18 at 5:20pm
That's fair. I really do appreciate your thorough explanation, Matt. You're a good guy. Cutting off speech in any regard is bound to inflame anybody's feelings, but I'm willing work with you on this continued dialogue 
#24O'Brien's Reason for Cutting the Final Scene of Act 1 in
Posted: 5/10/18 at 5:24pm
I really do appreciate that, Concierge (can I call you Concierge?). Trust me, we don't like having to delete stuff, and we even more hate having anything that is offensive posted on the board, but it's part of having a message board.
I appreciate your (and others'
willingness to contribute as we work on these things, it does make this a much better process.
#25O'Brien's Reason for Cutting the Final Scene of Act 1 in
Posted: 5/10/18 at 6:22pm
I would like to point out that when I joined this board in its infancy many years ago, people were WAY nicer to each other. It was just a bunch of theater nerds having a good time together. Now we have some truly vitriolic posters and trolls, and it's just not the same.
This also includes some truly self-righteous jerks who are clearly looking for an outlet to express their moral outrage at anything that can be even slightly construed as "unwoke" or "racist" in order to feel about about themselves. It's just gross.
Videos