Original Follies history

[Fenchurch]

Posted: 1/21/07 at 3:39pm

With all this talk of Follies on Encores, I wonder if anyone knows where they can point me on the internet to get a good idea of the history of the Follies itself. And also if there are any good films I can look at to get an idea of what a follies production looked like, in toto.

Thanks.

[Yankeefan007]

Posted: 1/21/07 at 3:46pm

Pick up Everything Was Possible by Ted Chapin. A great read.

[ljay889]

Posted: 1/21/07 at 3:47pm

I was going to say that, but I think the poster wants a history on the real Follies productions from the old days.

[BobbyBubby]

Posted: 1/21/07 at 4:03pm

There are 4 great CAST RECORDINGS of the show that are worth looking at too.

[BobbyBubby]

Posted: 1/21/07 at 4:06pm

You'll also notice that when your read Chapin's bio, he calls the Follies recording a Cast Recording, not a Soundtrack.

Just saying, you might not want to read a book by a theatre snob.

[Fenchurch]

Posted: 1/21/07 at 4:12pm

Youre right, LJ, I meant actual follies like Zeigfeld (sp?) Follies, but I know he wasn't the only one who did them.

Also wondering if George White's Scandals is basically the same thing, was it considered second rate or was it just another competitor?

Just curious is all. I have all the Sondheim Follies soundtracks except for the original london, where I only have the highlights, I'd love to get my hands on a complete version of that as well as pacific overtures, but never see them on ebay.

(see, you all understood what I meant...and when Condon makes his Follies film, I'll amend my language to be concise and clear, but until then, no misunderstanding seems iminent)

[BobbyBubby]

Posted: 1/21/07 at 4:14pm

I've never seen anyone wear ignorance as well as you, Fen.

[SeanMartin]

Posted: 1/21/07 at 5:55pm

The Scandals were a smaller version of the Follies: they were mostly performed on a small stage atop the New Amsterdam (back when it has a bar/restaurant on the roof) before moving into an available Broadway house while the Follies were always meant for the Big Stage.

It's difficult to write what they were like, because they were a little bit of... well, everything -- the theatrical version of a TV variety show, I guess. You got comics performing sketches, singers, lots of pretty girls (either in big dance numbers or what they called "tableaux vivants": the curtain would open to show a scene of some kind, with everyone frozen in position, then the curtain would close and we'd go to the next act). The Follies, of course, were the big ticket productions: very expensive to produce, very expensive to keep running, very expensive to see. The Scandals, on the other hand, had a smaller cast and tighter production values.

Both were re-built on an annual basis, and both would play off current social trends, which is why, for example, so many numbers in the Follies and the Scandals in the late 20s were Latin in nature, given our then fascination with everything south of the border.

Eventually, they just became too expensive to produce, period. IIRC, the last edition of Scandals was in 1935, and I think the last Follies was the year before.

[philcrosby]

Posted: 1/21/07 at 6:04pm

You could also rent THE GREAT ZIEGFELD ... history filtered through the MGM lens of course, but it will give you a good sense of the man himself.

[AJ1985]

Posted: 1/21/07 at 10:35pm

I have all the Sondheim Follies soundtracks except for the original london...

Then you dont have them all! :)

Actually thare aren't any soundtracks because they haven't made a movie of Follies yet.

The London version isn't very good. None of the new songs really fit as well as the ones they cut out. I still think the Papermill cast is the best CD of Follies but I know most prefer the originals

[PalJoey]

Posted: 1/22/07 at 8:04am

It was Ziegfeld, not George White, who produced smaller vaudeville shows on the rooftop of the New Amersterdam. Ziegfeld called them his "Midnight Frolics."



And, NO, I was not born then.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 1/22/07 at 8:11am

It seated 680 people and started out as a dance club, but in 1914, Ziegfeld decided to do a late-night miniature Follies in a nightclub setting. It was a great success until 1918, when Prohibition hurt the alcohol-based business. Nevertheless, the Frolics continued off-and-on until 1923, sometimes doing an early show at 9 PM,



There were several other rooftop theaters in New York in buildings that still stand, like the Chanin Building at 42nd and Lexington and the McAlpin Rooftop at 34th and Broadway. They have been turned into office space or apartments.

This from Musicals101.com: "Joseph Urban designed a mechanized stage that could roll back to reveal a dance floor, as well as a glass walkway that would allow chorus girls to dance right over customers' heads."



Kinky, no?

Updated On: 1/22/07 at 08:11 AM

Posted: 1/22/07 at 8:21am

"Eventually, they just became too expensive to produce, period. IIRC, the last edition of Scandals was in 1935, and I think the last Follies was the year before."

Although produced after Ziegfeld's death, don't forget Ziegfeld Follies of 1936 (which Encores! performed and which is recorded) and Ziegfeld Follies of 1956, starring Beatrice Lillie and Billy DeWolfe, which I saw at The Winter Garden.

Another series of more intimtate revues were Leonard Sillman's New Faces of ...

One of the last real revues was Two On The Aisle with Bert Lahr and Dolores Gray. The Mickey Rooney-Ann Miller show, Sugar Babies, although a tribute to burlesque was certainly a revue in the grand manner.

An uncle of mine, Owen Murphy, wrote the scores for several revues. Among them were The Greenwich Village Follies of 1925, Earl Carroll's Vanities [1925], Artists and Models [1924], and The Mimic World [1921].

[PalJoey]

Posted: 1/22/07 at 8:25am

In addition to Ziegfeld's Follies and Frolics and Earl Carroll's Vanities (which featured early music by George Gershwin), there were also Andre Charlot's revues from London, which introduced Gertrude Lawrence and Bea Lillie to New York). Then there were Earl Carroll's Vanities, which skirted the law and featured naked women, not just diaphanously covered ones like the other revues.

The Shuberts produced a series of revues called The Passing Shows and some featuring almost naked female flesh called Artists and Models.

And producer John Murray Anderson produced more intellectual revues called The Greenwich Village Follies, which were so successful that they moved to Broadway.

Updated On: 1/22/07 at 08:25 AM

[SeanMartin]

Posted: 1/22/07 at 9:08am

See, this is what happens when you get old(ish). You guys are all correct: the *Capers* were performed atop the New Amsterdam. And I'd forgotten about the Vanities.

The Ziegfield Follies of '56 really isnt a part of the canon, IMHO. It was an attempt to revive the form and tried to cash in on the name, nothing more.

And if we're discussing great Broadway stabs at revues, we cant forget HELLAPOPPIN, one of the most bizarre pieces ever mounted. Truly, the prototype of the unfilmable play.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 1/22/07 at 10:00am

That's Hellzapoppin' with a Z. (And an apostrophe.)

And what do you mean by "Capers"? There was never a show called the Capers.

[Fenchurch]

Posted: 1/22/07 at 12:31pm

Incredible info!

Thanks so much guys!

[SeanMartin]

Posted: 1/22/07 at 1:10pm

There is *always* a show called The Capers, he replied smugly. :)

[C is for Company]

Posted: 1/22/07 at 1:59pm

On the topic of Follies in general, could anybody PM me with the Follies Soundboard recording that I know Ciaron McCarthy sent a few people around here? Sorry to be a pain in the ass everyone.

edit; It could be worse! I could have started a new thread.

Updated On: 1/22/07 at 01:59 PM

[Piercemn]

Posted: 1/22/07 at 2:05pm

If you Google The Ziegfeld Follies, you should be able to learn things. Still, there are two MGM films that feature real Follies performers: The Great Ziegfeld and Ziegfeld Follies. The biographies of Will Rogers and many other performers of the time may be something to look into, and I'm certain there's at least one picture book on the Follies.

Ruth Gordon's novel, Shady Lady will tell you the story of one Follies girl. She grew up in Minnesota, and her son is now a producer and director of a theatre company here in Minneapolis.

Both Rose of Washington Square and Funny Girl deal with Fanny Brice and there are other films, including one on the George White Scandals that include acts of this nature. If you go to the Museum of TV and Radio, you can see old TV which includes a lot of vaudeville performers. Look for old Milton Berle and Ed Wynn shows, as well as old Ed Sullivan shows to see what some of these acts were like and why they went into the Follies.

[allofmylife]

Posted: 1/22/07 at 11:26pm

Another interesting thing about the Follies was "The Glorification of the American Girl" which was one of those amorphous phrases like "One-Hour Martinizing." in that nobody ever knew exactly what it meant but everyone had an opinion. Ziegfeld (proper spelling) made the final choices of the women in his chorus - let's face it, most were in their late teens or very VERY early 20's and the public assumed he slept with them, which was probably not the case. When Ziegfeld (again proper spelling) chose a young woman for his show, he "Glorified" her. People also assume Hugh Heffner sleeps with all the centerfolds in PLAYBOY and the little stars on the cover are his rating. It makes salacious press.

Ziggy was actually pretty faithful to his wives and mistresses (including the incredibly foul-mouthed Marilyn Miller and of course Billie Burke who was Miller's mirror opposite.

The other emprasarios, Carrol, White, Charlot, etc. emulated the stories of sleeping with their ladies but in reality, they all had long-term mistresses as well.

Posted: 1/23/07 at 12:46am

Fenchurch the only thing you're missing ont eh one disc London Follies that's not on the two disc is the dialogue piece with snippets of background melody that is new to the London production (party Chatter" I think tis' called--it's not wrorth looking or paying much tho for--otherwise you have everything. I largely lvoe that recording though Ia gree it doesn't represent well Follies--but it has great performances, great sound and orchestra and the new songs are all great even if only the new Loveland and Ah But Underneath are arguably ebtter than what they replace (though i do like Ben's more upbeat/happy Rachmaninov pastiche song--Country House though, while great, sounds like something from Sondheim's show of the same year Into the Woods)

The Papermill CD is essnetial to have but I find Tunick's tempi a bit too slow and the performances just so so but I like all (and the original cast) albums better than the highly overated concert cast

[Fenchurch]

Posted: 1/23/07 at 12:48am

All the same, Id love to have it. I have a thing about getting as many recordings of a show that I like as I can.

I wish they had recorded the most recent broadway production, I really enjoyed it when I saw it.

[Piercemn]

Posted: 1/24/07 at 1:08pm

Fenchurch, There's a film available in the collection of 50 movie musicals titled Glorifying the American Girl. I'd forgotten about it, and it's not a very good movie, but it does contain actual footage of the Follies. It's an early talkie, and the sound quality is debatable, but we got the set from Amazon.com for about $25 and it may be worth seeing, just because it is rare Follies footage.

[B3TA07]

Posted: 1/24/07 at 1:16pm

My local library has the recent PBS "B'WAY: The American Musical" documentary. Yours might too! The first disc has a lot of this stuff.