Report Abuse Links opinion thread- Page 11

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 3/12/16 at 1:28am

Turns for the worse are matters of opinions, but I wasn't here so I don't have one. 

 

I I sure hope the shroud of Murin becomes more obvious BO poison than her track record already shows her to be!

 

Loathe ya, Patti!  Don't wanna have drinks with ya!!!!!

[mpkie]

Posted: 3/12/16 at 1:30am

Hellob said: "We need to keep a list of who is #withpatti in case you don't want to spend money on them

 

so far I saw

 

Hilty, Rannells, Salonga, Miles and Pasquale 

 

If she is able to get her demands met, what does that say about the powers that be? Weak. Why debut the abuse button right after she complained? Now she has declared it a victory for her and looks like they are kissing her butt. Some B/C lister complains and they are falling over themselves to make her happy- what happens when an A+ star complains? A bad precedent is being set. Pacino got torn apart BAD and he didn't cry. "

 

I totally respect this even though I'm fans of many of these people. I'm disgusted by the language in Murin's post yet these theater professionals are jumping on the bandwagon.

 

I wanted to reply to them all via Twitter and tell them of the misinformation they are spreading but (a) I don't use Twitter for that purpose (b) Twitter doesn't let you have meaningful discourse.

 

Edited: Lea is not involved at all. I had to double check because I follow her on Twitter and she has never tweeted about this. Turns out it is her FAKE Facebook page with the nasty post. She hasn't been involved at all.

 

The list is actually way too huge now as the misinformation spreads like wildfire, so it looks like we would have to boycott theater. But I would definitely appreciate this list to be compiled, so that if I ever got to meet them at stage door I could politely correct them as to how UTTERLY WRONG they are.

 

Is there no one on the theatergoers' side or is that professional suicide??

Updated On: 3/14/16 at 01:30 AM

[LizzieCurry]

Posted: 3/12/16 at 1:34am

I didn't bother to read each and every actor's ringing endorsement of her post, but I wonder how many agree with her 100%. Did some actually want the boards gone, or did some just want people to be nicer? I suspect there are more of the latter, but that the majority didn't really want to elaborate/get into a tweetstorm.

[Blockhead24]

Posted: 3/12/16 at 1:36am

LizzieCurry said: "I didn't bother to read each and every actor's ringing endorsement of her post, but I wonder how many agree with her 100%. Did some actually want the boards gone, or did some just want people to be nicer? I suspect there are more of the latter, but that the majority didn't really want to elaborate/get into a tweetstorm."

 

Most of the ones I read ( which wasn't very many at all) wanted them gone 

 

ETA: Bravo to Matthew Murray!

Updated On: 3/12/16 at 01:36 AM

[Hellob]

Posted: 3/12/16 at 1:40am

AlanHenry said: "I can assure you the report abuse button was long in the works with a bunch of other new features for the site currently under work at "BWW labs". We're just trying to make it easier for the community to be able to alert us to their concerns.

 

"

I understand that but launching immediately after her post has already been claimed as a victory for her. It also disrespects and diminishes the board members who have been abused on here with no monitoring. You fall all over yourself after a blog post but have turned a blind eye to everyday people getting degraded. 

[Margo319]

Posted: 3/12/16 at 1:45am

Simply look back at the horrifying posts full of abuse, bullying, harassment, death threats, personal attacks.  Then suspend and delete the accounts of those members.  It's the least you can do for people who are not insecure, verbally abusive people who are just trying to discuss theater in a positive way.  

[LizzieCurry]

Posted: 3/12/16 at 1:45am

It was a very swift move... 13 years in the making.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 3/12/16 at 1:54am

Are you our liaison?

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 3/12/16 at 1:58am

You're nice. Thanks for that answer!

[ghostlight2]

Posted: 3/12/16 at 1:59am

"Jay Lerner-Z said: "Meanwhile, over on the OT board, tazber's thread headed "DELETE" is still up."

 

"Thanks for noticing. It's gone now."

 

Did tazber contact the Mods to delete the post, or did s/he simply expect them to notice? I'm astounded at how many of the posters were not aware of the "report abuse" button, or apparently never thought to pm rob about the issues they are having. They aren't mindreaders, folks. If you have a problem, you need to actually let them know - directly - about it. You can't assume they'll simply see it in the every day postings.

[CarlosAlberto]

Posted: 3/12/16 at 2:04am

This is the poster known as "bk" he is an actor, producer and director. He is well respected in the industry. His name is Bruce Kimmel. He is the man behind all the amazing soundtrack releases from his label Kritzerland Records but to me he will always be the guy who dated the beautiful Susan Dey as Laurie Partridge on numerous episodes of The Partridge Family and was the force behind the cult film "The First Nudie Musical" with Cindy Williams and Diana Canova. 

Updated On: 3/12/16 at 02:04 AM

[devonian.t]

Posted: 3/12/16 at 4:32am

Margo319 said: "Simply look back at the horrifying posts full of abuse, bullying, harassment, death threats, personal attacks.  Then suspend and delete the accounts of those members.  It's the least you can do for people who are not insecure, verbally abusive people who are just trying to discuss theater in a positive way.  

 

But why should all theatre be discussed in a positive way?

 

If you want to gush about something or someone, go to the fansite.

 

Though it gets acidic at times, this board is just like all discussions in the theatre community.  When I go to work, standing backstage I'll hear nice comments, but 75% time I hear amusing gossip and rumours, and 24% bitchiness and snark.  It's just how we are and if Patty Murrin etc deny that, they've never been in a chorus dressing room!

 

The board is like the business except in real life you see/ hear who is doing the gossiping.  But most of the time, what i get is: "Someone told me..." so that's still an anonymous source.

 

[10086sunset]

Posted: 3/12/16 at 6:13am

Thankful Matthew Murray gets it. 

 

[Patti LuPone FANatic]

Posted: 3/12/16 at 6:15am

 

[Patti LuPone FANatic]

Posted: 3/12/16 at 6:24am

Obviously, Patti Murin has publicized a problem that has existed here for a long time.  She's not going to get everything she wants, but at least the discussion is more prominent now.  There is more awareness and a willingness to act on the problem of BWW bullying.  To those members of BWW who have left because of some toxic people, this would be a great time to make "a return."  Hats off to  Rob and his dedicated group of moderators.   

[g.d.e.l.g.i.]

Posted: 3/12/16 at 6:58am

LizzieCurry said: "Matthew Murray did a nice tweetstorm about this. Unfortunately, he didn't chain these together, so you'll have to look at his main profile page, but they should still be easy to find.

 

https://twitter.com/MMurrayOnBway/"

 

Please allow me to chain together the first tweetstorm, for those who would rather read it in paragraph form:

 

"Consider this my admission of bias before wading into a hot-button issue. But there is nothing wrong with the existence of theatre chat boards. The boards shouldn't be abolished. They should be allowed to be where they are, what they are, and as they are. Should people give more consideration to what they write there? Sure. But I get very uncomfortable with the idea that people who like theatre shouldn't have a place to talk about theatre. And I cannot believe that people who work in theatre, and thus depend on these same people for their livelihood, want that, either. 

 

Though I write for a site with an infamous board itself, it's worth pointing out that I've been lambasted there countless times. But I want people who love theatre to have an outlet where they can talk about this stuff. They deserve that, don't they? There are certain people I choose not to read, certain subjects I choose not to read about. That system works for me. If it doesn't for you, I'm sorry. But the idea that everyone should be punished because a few people said something you don't like is not a positive one. Complain, address, reply, retaliate, rebuff, escape, whatever you need to do to make it. But take away an entire venue for discussion? No. If you insist no one talks about you or or your projects, you run the risk of waking one day to discover you no longer have an audience.

 

I empathize with what you're going through, I really do. But this isn't a solution. Cutting off others' speech, or even advocating that, because you don't like what they say is harmful to everyone -- including you. Discussing the subject publicly, taking the nasty criticisms back to the people, is what you SHOULD do. Show them you're a person. It can be easy to forget that about people you see, watch, admire, or read. And that's a lesson everyone needs to learn. But if you are flat-out telling people, 'You shouldn't be allowed to say anything negative about me,' you lose my support. If you are putting yourself out for criticism, you can't cherry-pick what you get back. That is, for better or worse, the nature of the biz. (And, once again, it applies to people like me, too. I had to make peace with it years ago myself. So I'm not just spouting off here.)

 

So, I guess, in short: Get over yourself. Learn to live with it and fight back on their terms. Because anything else makes the theatre world a worse place, not a better one, regardless of what's said. As always in the theatre, we need more voices, not fewer. You don't like what these voices say? Add yours to the mix. That's how it's supposed to work. It's easier than ever to do that now. We should all be happy about that, even if some individual words sting or hurt. We can all take our responses into our own hands. So do that. Don't tell people they shouldn't have the right to speak unless they say what you want to hear. Because, ultimately, when you do that, you're telling me that the only one not worth listening to is YOU."

[Alexander Lamar]

Posted: 3/12/16 at 7:10am

So has there been any news about where those posters who want to post/read without censorship are going? I know some posters here have an IT background, had anyone created a new board yet?

[g.d.e.l.g.i.]

Posted: 3/12/16 at 7:14am

While I'm stringing together his tweets in paragraph form, here's the other stream:

 

"I'm going to say one more thing, then close off this discussion for the night. Maybe permanently -- we'll see what the weekend brings.

 

I've seen a number of theatre artists today express the general idea that they aren't interested in their audience's opinions. You know what? That's totally fine. So don't expose yourself to them. Don't read the chat boards where theatre lovers post. Don't go to BroadwayCon. Don't go to restaurants or bars where you may overhear. But, please, take control over your own life. I'm stunned and disappointed at the number of people who think theatre lovers should not be allowed to share their opinions online at all. No one wants to be hurt by others' words, let alone be subjected to actual threats. (Which, so there's no misunderstanding, are NEVER okay.) But if people love something and they want to discuss it, they should have that option. Even if they say they don't like you.

 

As I said earlier today, I understand this as well as anyone. During my 15 years as a reviewer, I have been called every sort of name, had every aspect of my life and personality questioned. I have been sworn at by people I've given bad reviews to -- words I would never, ever use in print or on Twitter. And, yes, I have had artists make actual, physical threats to me. All because my reviews are posted on a website that hosts one of the best-known and most active theatre chat boards out there.

 

I've considered quitting. I've considered calling the authorities. I've considered canceling shows I was supposed to see. But you know what I've never, ever done? Said that the people who read me shouldn't have the right to talk about my writing and opinions. I value my readers tremendously, even when they're angry with me. Even when they claim that I hate everything I see and the theatre itself. (Because, sure, someone who goes to the theatre upwards of 250 times per year, every year, for 15 years running, obviously hates it.)

 

Beyond that, I value theatre lovers. I have met some wonderful people and kindled wonderful relationships because we share a common passion. I wholeheartedly reject the idea that sports lovers, politics lovers, movie lovers should be able to talk -- but theatre lovers shouldn't.

 

I get that the relationship between artists and audience is different in the theatre. I get that you're concerned about the process. The fact remains, however, that that relationship and that process ARE WHAT MAKE THE THEATRE SO SPECIAL. They're why performers act in impossible conditions, for little money, and why audience members sacrifice money and time to see shows. You get something from the theatre experience that you don't -- that you CANNOT -- get from any other kind of art. The communal aspect of theatre is essential to it. And, in the vast majority of cases, talking about shows is essential to that communion. What are you going to see? What have you seen? What did this thing in this show mean? All of this is relevant. All of this is important. More than that, this builds the vibrant community that is a huge part of what drew us -- on both sides of the footlights -- to the theatre.

 

Is it perfect? No. Could many audience members and anonymous chatters be more respectful? Sure. But we cannot -- and, indeed, we must not -- throw away all that is good and all that is vital about the theatre because of the bad people. The community, the family, that is New York theatre will become lesser if we rob people of their ability to participate in it in this way. I don't want that. I'm guessing no one does. But it's what you're asking for, however unintentionally, when you try to squelch discussion.

 

The greatest cure for speech you don't like is more speech. If you don't like what someone on a chat board is saying, get an account yourself and set the record straight. Take those people to task publicly, on your own blog, with your own name attached, to show them how criticism SHOULD be done. Post about it on Facebook -- a vital marketing tool practically everyone has. Or tweet about it. I even hear you can do a thing called 'tweetstorming,' but I don't really know how that works. The point is: Engage. Build. Develop. Help the community grow, prosper, and improve. Don't shut it down. If you shut down the community, you hurt it -- and you hurt yourself, because you're sending a message that your fans don't matter.

 

We all know that, Hamilton aside, the theatre is not the phenomenon, the leader of culture that it once was. Which makes it all the more important that we stay strong and stay united, whether or not we agree or disagree with each other. And to stay strong and stay united, we need a rich, diverse population. Diverse in all ways. Gender, ethnicity, sexuality, religion -- we have all those. Political ideology, in many ways, we could still work on. And beyond that, we need diversity of opinion, because there is never, ever going to be only one monolithic kind of show available to see. For all the people who complain about Broadway (including, sometimes, yours truly), it still offers a significant diversity of shows. The more shows, the more styles, the more opinions, the better we'll be. The stronger we will be. And the more this will mean -- to all of us.

 

If you or your family are seriously threatened online, you can and should seek help from the proper authorities. That's unacceptable. But if someone just doesn't like your performance, your direction, your script, and is vocal about it -- that's okay. You don't have to agree. Your opinion is just as valid as theirs, and you obviously have information they don't. Share it. Educate them. Expand their mind. And, who knows, maybe your critic has a point? Regardless, you both grow -- and so does the theatre. Shutting down the discussion before it starts prevents that from happening, and retards the necessary formation of new relationships. In this digital age, we need to connect that way. It's no longer an option. I make my living online, and even I don't like it all the time.

 

So develop a thicker skin. Learn how to separate the good from the bad. Learn how to step away sometimes. Your sanity is too important. But you got into this business to make your voice heard. So let the people who love you make their voices heard, too."

[best12bars]

Posted: 3/12/16 at 7:45am

Matthew Murray summed it up beautifully, and he is right.

 

Over the years, I've been an actor, writer, singer, novelist, director, arranger, graphic designer, animator, producer, musician, etc.---in short, I've chosen professions and paths that have put me and my work out there for public scrutiny. The response is not always favorable. I've heard everything from "you're the BEST" to "you are the WORST" and all points in between. I take the whole gamut with a grain of salt, including the high praise. Knee-jerk reactions (often emphasizing the jerk) come with the territory. Not everyone does it, but some people (more and more today) have an odd way of speaking in extremes as if it somehow makes an opinion more relevant and pronounced. It's the emotional equivalent of TYPING IN ALL CAPS. They can't just say they didn't care for something, they have to HATE it with six exclamation points. They can't just say they enjoyed something, they have to LOVE it with nine emoticons. Misguided and self-undermining as that is, I admire their passion at least.

 

But artists who ask to censor or hide or relegate to an "off-site ghetto" comments about them or their work don't deserve to have their own art or selves censor-free either. Freedom of expression is not a one-way street based on personal perspective or taste. It doesn't exist in a vacuum either. By taking the interaction away from some, you will take it away from all, in the end. Patti Murin and others don't get to decide who speaks freely and who does not to suit themselves. A sour opinion and a bitter remark? That's unfortunate. I've received plenty myself along with the positive praise. Cyberbullying and defamation of character, however, are punishable crimes, and if Ms. Murin and others feel they have been victims of those crimes, they should prosecute.

 

The one comment made about her that I found to be defamatory was about her not being able to hit her own high notes as a singer and having them prerecorded or sung by someone else off-stage. That was a lie and could be damaging to her career. I wish people who make those remarks would be held accountable, and that includes pressing charges or even suing them for libel. Remarks like that should not be made lightly or in jest or as a playful jibe. They are published on the World Wide Web for all to see, and they can and do inflict harm.

 

But "Your work sucked" doesn't fall into a criminal category, and bruising someone's ego or offering a negative opinion (even an extreme one) isn't a crime.

 

There is a difference between those two examples above, and we should learn the difference. We must learn the difference. On both sides of the stage and both sides of the argument.

Updated On: 3/12/16 at 07:45 AM

[Petralicious]

Posted: 3/12/16 at 8:29am

Wow, even Audra has aplauded Patti

[PalJoey]

Posted: 3/12/16 at 9:10am

 

I have frequently criticized individual posters on the board for excessive nastiness toward individual performers or being prematurely critical of early previews--

 

--AND I have (perhaps) been guilty myself of (perhaps) excessive criticism of certain productions and performances (Arthur Laurents's WSS)--

 

BUT I find this clamor to "TAKE DOWN THE BOARDS!" among theater artists I respect to be disturbingly fascistic.

 

There. I have said it. Rob has done a masterful job of responding to the outcry and instituting reforms. But, hey, Broadway performers, "Take down the boards!" does NOT have the heroic ring of Ronald Reagan's "Tear down this wall." It is stifling dissent, and it is as ugly as the ad hominem attacks you are protesting, perhaps uglier..

 

Thanks, Rob, as always, for the gift that this website has been and continues to be.

 

 

Updated On: 3/12/16 at 09:10 AM

[NYadgal]

Posted: 3/12/16 at 9:20am

Agree!!

 

Add me to the list of people who are disappointed to see these artists calling for this action.   

I'm also disappointed to see this story being picked up by other "new" outlets.   If the NY Times article offered a comments link (I didn't see one), I would have left one in FULL support of BroadwayWorld and Rob.  

 

Well said, PalJoey.  As always, very well said.  

[Craig]

Posted: 3/12/16 at 9:29am

Most of those in support, I believe, love BWW in general.  They don't like the chat boards.  They are giving Patti virtual high fives and ink in support of the overall message - which is more about proper moderation than about removing the boards.  It's just there's a lot of noise about both.  I don't believe Rob would ever truly consider removing the message boards from this site.  And that doesn't need to happen. What does need to happen is that people should post with respect.  Some here seem to think that means they can't say what they want or that it means it has to be rainbows and puppy dogs.  That's very black and white. It's also wrong.  It means that words matters. And that some people have not chosen their words with much thought - but in an effort to one up another in hyperbole. It serves no purpose.  There are many ways posters can dissect a show, performance, etc.   Some here certainly are all bent out of shape when it's turned on them, aren't they?

 

[dramamama611]

Posted: 3/12/16 at 9:47am

I think there are two things that bother me here about "Patti's Rant".

1.  She has largely ignored all the positive comments, discussions  and even reprimands (from amongst posters) that do happen.  Specifically, the thread about her show closing was OVERWHELMINGLY supportive of the cast & crew.    Just like an elementary teacher punishing the whole class because 4 kids misbehaved for a substitute, this is blaming the whole for the behavior of some.

 

2.  As a number of posters have pointed out, her own blog and twitter is full of the same type of comments she's calling people out for on this site.  I believe the adage, "Physician heal thyself," is apropos here.

 

 

[dramamama611]

Posted: 3/12/16 at 9:47am

I think there are two things that bother me here about "Patti's Rant".

1.  She has largely ignored all the positive comments, discussions  and even reprimands (from amongst posters) that do happen.  Specifically, the thread about her show closing was OVERWHELMINGLY supportive of the cast & crew.    Just like an elementary teacher punishing the whole class because 4 kids misbehaved for a substitute, this is blaming the whole for the behavior of some.

 

2.  As a number of posters have pointed out, her own blog and twitter is full of the same type of comments she's calling people out for on this site.  I believe the adage, "Physician heal thyself," is apropos here.