Review: Next to Normal 4/4/09 matinee (small spoilers)- Page 5

[SporkGoddess]

Posted: 4/8/09 at 7:13pm

Oh, I'm not saying the show should be closed. And I love the score. It's just people were arguing, so I thought I'd say what I thought.

jordangirl: It doesn't mention psychosis, though. But I suppose if we both agree that treating the grief alone wouldn't be effective enough, this is a moot argument.

[April Saul]

Posted: 4/8/09 at 10:30pm

SporkGoddess and Eve are right, N2N isn't very real when it comes to bipolar and it does things that might make for more interesting theater--like bashing meds, therapists and ECT--at the expense of disseminating more accurate information about manic-depression, which might have made for a more boring musical in the eyes of its creators.

The bipolar folks I know love the show anyway because the score, especially, resonates with them enormously. They are also smart enough not to throw their meds away afterward. Hopefully, the value of that identification is greater than the detrimental effect on people who might, unwisely, buy into the other stuff.

A friend of mine mentioned to Alice Ripley that it's virtually impossible for bipolars to live healthy lives without medication, and he remembers her saying something like, well, I know that, but my character doesn't.

I think the passion that people feel for N2N on the boards probably relates to their own experiences with grueling psychiatric illnesses like bipolar...and the fact that, most of the time, it's still a stigma that people avoid talking about. Clearly, many of us need to...and that, at least, is a healthy thing.

[iamdangoodman]

Posted: 4/8/09 at 10:32pm

Deep breath everyone. Sporkgoddess, it will be interesting to hear your views when you have seen the show. As JG says, it is not really possible to diagnose the play from the CD. You'd surely want to meet your client before you pronounced yourself certain, yes? There will be things in the show that alter your opinion, certainly. Like for instance, what happens between "There's a World" and the ECT. So, come back and share those things if you would. I'll be curious.

For me, I am so curious why people get so freakin' literal about this show, in particular Gabe. Did I miss it, or was there never this much discussion of whether Haley Joel Osment really SAW dead people? And whether it was irresponsible filmmaking to suggest he did? It's art! It's a play. And this play has chosen a time-honored means of telling its story. One character talks to someone who is not there. What was Hamlet's disorder? Was Shakespeare irresponsible?

This is why I keep going to the trauma. Not just because it's my curse to directly relate on that level, but because it alleviates the need to micro-analyze the event (and the past) and allows me to just see a powerful story that resonates as emotionally honest and deeply moving. And HIGHLY THEATRICAL.

Diana does say, as if it's just occurred to her, that her first therapist told her she needed to be medicated because her grief had gone on too long, that it was pathological. And it sounds to me as if she wonders, at that moment, if that diagnosis was insufficient or wide of the mark. And having lived these sixteen plus years with that diagnosis she's going to try to find another way. What way? We don't know. She leaves the office and goes to find it. Does it involve meds? Talk therapy? Hypnosis? Frequent spa treatments? Who knows? We see her at the end of the play. She's alive. She's clearly working on things-- we see that. And Dr. Madden let's Dan know she's alive and that his opinion is that she will likely be OK. (Great!) He's worried about Dan. And he should be.

It is possible that the story revolves around some medical professionals making mistakes. It is possible that Gabe is a ghost-- even possible that Dan sees him as well but refuses to admit it. It is possible that Natalie and Henry are going to repeat the relationship of Diana and Dan. THIS IS STORYTELLING, y'all!

And yes, it has a deep seat in my heart and my life. Because I lived a story that goes something like it. But most of the people who write in saying it resonates directly with them are FAR MORE grateful for the fact that it resonates than concerned about whether it's a reality show. It's not reality theater. It's not docudrama. It's a play. And a damn good one. And, bonus!, it has great music. And a great cast. And a fan base. And some writers who have gone to great lengths to manage the message of their story so that it rings with authenticity and not with judgement.

So, Sporkgoddess, I really mean I'd love to read your thoughts when you've seen it. You can PM me if you don't want to get in a public discussion about it. But I also think you would do well, in the meanwhile, to suspend your judgement based on the CD. It's an insufficient data sample from which to make your call. Just enjoy it. Don't analyze it.

[April Saul]

Posted: 4/8/09 at 10:42pm

Hi again Dan--
I think you actually do better with N2N because you're focusing on the grief/trauma as your point of identification. As much as I like it, per my earlier posts and my PM to you, the problems people have here are with the bipolar references and trying to have that make sense, when it just doesn't. I still enjoy the show for what it is, but since there are actually people (younger, maybe not-so-mature ones) who are said to have actually tossed their meds after seeing it, it's hard not to be concerned at all about that stuff...even if you and I both know it's great musical theater!

[Kad]

Posted: 4/8/09 at 10:46pm

I seem to recall a line in the show about Diana's specific diagnosis- or lack thereof. Something about groups of symptoms that are put under an umbrella term to describe it? I can't recall the specific line. But it I remember recalling that it was smart of the writers to include it, as it gave them a lot of wiggle room in what they do.


I'm also curious as to what SPECIFIC things people find to be untrue and/or dangerous.

[iamdangoodman]

Posted: 4/8/09 at 11:08pm

Is that story about the young people who went out and threw their meds out a story that results from seeing this show or the Arena show? That story comes from criticism of the show at Second Stage, as far as I can tell. And leaving aside the question of whether it is true (I'll assume it is and that it was a dangerous and scary time for them when they did that), it is part of what the writers went to work on it seems. They've removed all that smart alecky stuff about meds and treatments and anything that made mania or madness look fun.

Have you seen the United States of Tara, anyone? Are there people up in arms about that show? She's a multiple personality disorder person trying to go it without meds. And it makes for a really compelling story.

It's interesting, April, but I think I go to the trauma more because that's the actual (or one possible) engine of the story as it seems to be presented. Did it, or did it not, trigger a genetic predisposition for bipolar? That's actually a question the characters in the show have. No one questions the trauma that has set this family in this struggle. I guess I'm realizing that I don't assume she is bipolar. Maybe I'm an idiot or too close but in a parallel universe. Does she have to be for the play to work? Isn't it also a viable reading of the text, that she is struggling with grief and that she's had conflicting medical advice and a husband who thinks everything's actually fine and that he can ward off any ill that might lurk for her just because he promised to? And who's not dealt with his own loss (and failure, the worst possible failure for someone with his belief set), so she's metabolizing his loss at the same time she's trying to cope with her own? And that she might, once outside of all these other complicating circumstances, find her own way home? As might he.

Sorry. TMI. And now back to our regularly scheduled program: Oh that Patti Lupone...

[April Saul]

Posted: 4/8/09 at 11:09pm

Kad--
I think the single most disturbing thing is the fact that she's diagnosed bipolar in the show and tosses her meds at the end--when effective meds are a must for virtually anyone bipolar to live a decent life. Even in her posts here, Jordangirl defends the current version of N2N by saying that it implies that Diana may have been misdiagnosed all along, which would make her NOT really bipolar after all.

So specifically, the idea that you can be bipolar and not need meds would be mostly untrue and potentially dangerous. But you are right when you point out that they gave themselves more wiggle room in this version than in the original. They do (twice) call her bipolar in the current version, and they also represent the manic part of the illness quite eloquently in "I Miss the Mountains." So even though they have these bipolar elements, they've also got the post-trauma going, too, and it does all make for a mish-mash.

The most important thing people need to know about bipolar illness is that it's something you're born with that almost always requires medication...neither of which is clear here.

[iamdangoodman]

Posted: 4/8/09 at 11:15pm

I have the same question as Kad-- IS she diagnosed as bipolar in the timeframe of this show? She WAS diagnosed that and she says "that didn't quite seem to cover it". But does Dr. Madden, who we have to assume becomes the doctor of record here, ever say that's what she has? Maybe I just block that out so I can have my own fantasy of what the show's about.

[TheBoyDownstairs]

Posted: 4/8/09 at 11:16pm

I think they really went out of their way to make it very ambiguous about what is truly causing Diana's issues. I think it was a very smart move, that way they do give themselves the wiggle room.

The show is definitely less about what is actually wrong with her and more about the resulting issues that have affected all their lives.

[Kad]

Posted: 4/8/09 at 11:16pm

I agree with you. The show presents Diana's case as being one of severe, unresolved grief that was the spark of all her issues, and that she never had adequate help with THAT.

I really think the "it made kids throw away their meds!" story was clearly an isolated incident with some already troubled people. I had never heard that anecdote until very recently- can anyone substantiate? Where did it come from? The show as it is now in no way glamorizes mental illness. Diana throwing away her medication is not portrayed positively- in fact, it's portrayed as being extremely harmful to both her and those around her. Her decision at the end of the show is fairly tentative and what she actually does is only vaguely implied. We know she leaves, but we don't know precisely what she chooses to do.

[iamdangoodman]

Posted: 4/8/09 at 11:32pm

TOO LATE, BUT SPOILERS...

I think there are also too many versions of the show in people's heads, in some ways. If you just go now, without the Second Stage version in your head, you come away without the same confidence that it's actually about bipolar illness, or that it's even entirely about Diana. This show is really about the family and the producers seem to know that, hence the marketing. But the chat makes it seem like it's all about Diana, which it was at Second Stage but isn't any longer. And I'm willing to acknowledge, and happily, that the SHOW is all about Alice. She's other worldly here and seems, therefore, to be the 'point' of the show. But is she, really, in the current rendition of it?

Also, we keep talking about Dan's role as someone who hasn't dealt with his own loss and struggles because he needs to be strong for her, but what he's really not faced is his failure. Until the moment in the nursery where he sings "How could I ever forget" and describes what happened and says "I was a child..." he's still not faced his shame. And Gabe sings with him on the lyric "I am the one who watched while you died." He and Gabe are acknowledging there that they both died that day, not just the son. And that's the grief he dumped on Diana. That's the grief she's been trying to metabolize and she can't because it's his. No amount of medicating Diana is going to help Dan.
Updated On: 4/8/09 at 11:32 PM

[April Saul]

Posted: 4/8/09 at 11:32pm

Hey Kad--
The stories about people being influenced to toss their meds were told by posters on the theater boards...they seemed to be firsthand, and I figured they were referring to younger, more impressionable people. I didn't think anybody would have made that up--especially because it's so common for folks with bipolar to try living without their meds--the side effects annoy them, or they just want to be "themselves." Hopefully, they realize the mistake in time and get back on a good medication before they kill themselves (literally) or hurt someone else.

But I do agree with you that it doesn't glamorize mental illness at all, and like I said earlier on this thread, the bipolar people I know who've seen N2N all really love it, because there's so much there to relate to...and overall, I like the show.

[teka21]

Posted: 4/9/09 at 12:48am

Spork, to answer your earlier concern that no anti-psychotic drugs were mentioned for Diana, Risperidal was mentioned I believe, which is an anti-psychotic med.

[theatreguy]

Posted: 4/9/09 at 1:09am

I just saw the show tonight and, maybe I missed something, but I didn't get the impression that Diana threw out all her pills and then never went on any sort of medication ever again. All we really know at the end is that she's "working on it" which could mean lots of different things. I don't recall anything like "I threw out my meds and then I was cured and everything was great."

[SporkGoddess]

Posted: 4/9/09 at 1:25am

Oh, if they mention Risperidol, I'm happy. So scratch that complaint. I was confused by the lack of lithium, too, but they do mention later that she was on too much of it. Huh.

iamdangoodman: I would love to see the show if I get the chance, and give it a full review for everyone to read. I'm hoping it will still be playing when I'm in NYC for a conference this November (assuming our poster gets accepted, that is). I would looove to see Alice Ripley live, if nothing else.

A friend just told me that the anti-psychotropic message was toned down a lot for the Broadway version, so I must have been going off of the previous version. Glad to hear that they dealt with that better, though IMO it still isn't perfect.

Re: Diana's diagnosis, I really think that she has to be bipolar (assuming that you believe she is mentally ill, that is). She mentions mania so she can't just have major depression, and she definitely doesn't have flattened affect, autistic interactions, cognitive and speech problems, etc. that tend to go along with schizophrenia. Schizophrenia would make more sense for her age of onset, though. As mentioned earlier, bipolar usually manifests itself earlier, such as in the teenaged years, so that's why I'm going with idea that she was disposed but the disorder would not have manifested itself had the trauma with Gabe not happened. I do think that if the show wants to be more generic, it needs to take out the reference to mania and maybe not list Diana's diagnosis.

Yes, diagnoses are only for a cluster of behavioral symptoms, but that's how all mental illnesses are diagnosed. It's not perfect, but it's the best thing that we've got. There's more to it than just the DSM, though: Diana would likely have undergone a clinical interview and neuropsych testing. But I guess as someone in the field, I would need to have more faith in diagnosis than some of you do.

And, yes, the portrayal of bipolar's emotional whirlwind and the effect mental illness can have on families in the show is wonderful. I mean, as much as I can tell without having the disorder, myself. My mom's nephew's wife has it, though, and her nephew has a lot of the same problems that Dan did (especially with her not taking meds).

Updated On: 4/9/09 at 01:25 AM

[KingKong]

Posted: 4/9/09 at 1:41am

I'm calling bull**** on anyone who claims that people threw away their meds because of this show. But even if they did, that's not the fault of ANYONE involved with the show, it is the fault of whatever braindead dip**** did it.

[Craww]

Posted: 4/9/09 at 10:01am

Glad to hear that they dealt with that better, though IMO it still isn't perfect.

There is no perfect to achieve. Even if every technical detail lined up in a perfectly realistic manner, there'd still be someone to stress the burden of responsible storytelling.

The debate is tiring, and I sometimes think it hurt the evolution of the show. I'd rather my art be rich than be correct. There's a reason love songs with the stupidest sentiments often resonate the most. An issue represented more broadly can be represented more artfully, and an issue represented with more humor connects more.

[SporkGoddess]

Posted: 4/9/09 at 3:18pm

I don't know, I think that when you tackle an issue like this, you do have a certain responsibility. Though it's great that it's even trying, and that many people can relate to it emotionally, I don't think that it's a good excuse. Especially when it's propogating ideas that are already firmly entrenched by pop culture and the media, ideas that are quite damaging. Again, I think that it's a good show in terms of artistry, but I do wish that the writers had done more research, and that people who see it should be informed that it's not accurate.

If it helps, I felt the same way about A Beautiful Mind back in the day.

That said, I haven't seen N2N and will refrain from judging it further until I have done so, but from what I do know about the show, the portrayal of mental health and treatment is somewhat concerning. It's something that I believe will prevent me from fully loving the show. I do not hold it against anyone who does love it, of course.

As for the people who threw out their medication, I don't blame the show because they probably would have eventually done so anyway.

Keep in mind though that I am a nitpicker and openly admit as such--it's just a part of who I am.

Updated On: 4/9/09 at 03:18 PM

[orangeskittles]

Posted: 4/9/09 at 3:43pm

KingKong, go read the old Feeling Electric communities on LJ. There were posters who were relieved they refused ECT after experiencing previous versions of this show. I guess it's easy to make ridiculous declarations such as yours when you didn't see the version of the show with Frankensteinian electrocution sound effects during Diana's ECT.


I do believe the Arena Stage production was much improved from the NYMF version of Feeling Electric's view of mental illness. The creative team worked with mental health professionals eventually, but that was long after they had the show's music and plot set. They've inserted a handful of lines to help, but its portrayal of mental health is still about as accurate as West Side Story's portrayal of gangs.

If that's all they aspire to, fine, but then the show shouldn't constantly be hailed as "groundbreaking" for portraying mental illness anymoreso than Hamlet or The Madness of King George are.

[SporkGoddess]

Posted: 4/9/09 at 3:44pm

Wow, orangeskittles, I think this is the first time we've agreed on anything. And you said it so much better than I did, heh.

[April Saul]

Posted: 4/9/09 at 5:59pm

Good post, skittles! I like N2N, but can't quite love it for exactly that reason...unfortunately they're still using too many bipolar symptoms to completely forget about that diagnosis and focus on the grief. People can post till the cows come home like they're doing here and Diana's psychiatric symptoms will never quite jibe. It's terrific theater, but I agree that it would be even more "honest" and "groundbreaking" if it made more sense. Jeez, KingKong, you crack me up! F--- 'em if they can't take a joke might be okay, but not so much for a young, impressionable kid who's trying to navigate mental illness and might be looking for clues, even from a B'way show...and don't bash me on that one, ok? Or I will wish severe psychiatric illness on someone you care about...kidding

[iamdangoodman]

Posted: 4/9/09 at 6:07pm

Craww: did you think the show got less instead of better during its revisions? I only know it from Second Stage, not from NYMF or Feeling Electric and I thought it was much improved at Arena Stage. Are you thinking the opposite happened in their effort to make it better?

As for the tedium of the debate, sorry. It's close to my heart so I chime in. Feel free to skip past those parts.

OrangeSkittles: are you seeing the writers or the producers claiming it's about mental illness? I feel like they've intentionally pulled that out since the revisions and now just focus on it as the story of a family "that's about to face the music". I feel like the fans of the earlier versions of the show are the ones who keep arguing that point but the writers moved on some time ago.

Just to say that I think there has been a lot of responsibility taken, while protecting the space for telling a good story with some great music and outstanding performances. They just want to be taken like Hamlet or Madness, I mean, not an 'issue' play.

It's hard to see a show like this without seeing its other incarnations and marketing campaigns, I guess.

[Craww]

Posted: 4/9/09 at 11:55pm

Craww: did you think the show got less instead of better during its revisions?

I've heard the early versions, I saw it at Second Stage, and I've heard the cast recording and some recaps of the changes made at Arena Stage. I can't say for sure whether I think the revisions were a complete success until I see it on Broadway.

I'm not saying it got worse, I'm just saying I feel like the revisions were hurt by trying to please the arbiters of responsible storytelling. I feel like a lot of the dark humor was lost, for one.

Jeez, KingKong, you crack me up! F--- 'em if they can't take a joke might be okay, but not so much for a young, impressionable kid who's trying to navigate mental illness and might be looking for clues, even from a B'way show...and don't bash me on that one, ok? Or I will wish severe psychiatric illness on someone you care about...kidding

That's ridiculous. Sure, KingKong's responses on these threads are borderline trolling in how unreasonable they are, but this isn't the way to respond either. It's not the responsibility of the art to babysit troubled children. Do I think changes needed to be made to how they handled mental illness within this show? Yes, sure. If only because there's a sheer laziness to the hodgepodge of symptoms and treatments contained within. I just think any changes they made should have gone towards serving the material, not towards serving the consensus of the medical community.

I'm not even sure there'd be a show at all if everything inaccurate or unbelievable were excised. I'm not sure the barebones of the plot supports it. All these circular arguments make me wish everyone would just think of it as a ghost story and debate the supernatural instead of the psychiatric.
Updated On: 4/10/09 at 11:55 PM

[April Saul]

Posted: 4/10/09 at 12:38am

Hey Craww--

I've said in earlier posts that having Diana survive with the right meds and a good therapist might not have made for the best theater or the most spectacular ending...even if, in fact, that's the real happy ending for nearly everybody with bipolar. I've also said that I appreciate the show anyway. And no, of course it's not the responsibility of the arts "to babysit troubled children" or answer to the medical community.

The reason so many of us are posting so passionately here--and sorry if it is annoying you--is probably because bipolar, or a psychiatric issue as grueling and life-threatening as this--has touched our lives in serious ways. It certainly has mine, and I have been astounded by the ignorance out there about this illness. Our needing to talk about the issue--and our wanting N2N to get it right--is a manifestation of how much we care.

So, sure, intellectually, I get your point of view. I could be wrong, but your flip comment about "troubled children" tells me that you probably have never been one, parented one--or tried to help pull a young person through this illness. Lucky you.

[KingKong]

Posted: 4/10/09 at 12:41am

Jeez, KingKong, you crack me up! F--- 'em if they can't take a joke might be okay, but not so much for a young, impressionable kid who's trying to navigate mental illness and might be looking for clues, even from a B'way show...and don't bash me on that one, ok? Or I will wish severe psychiatric illness on someone you care about...kidding

Oh look, complete idiocy from you, yet again.