Review: Next to Normal 4/4/09 matinee (small spoilers)- Page 4

[dramamama611]

Posted: 4/6/09 at 1:49am

Wow. Audience members that go to see something like N2N are not going to be your garden-variety-legally-blonde-is-the-best-show-seeing audience. It won't appeal to them.

IT IS A STORY, Diana's story. Do you watch Lifetime movies about HS kids and think they are true or representational of all HS kids???

Additionally, MANY doc DO have the put up my feet and listen attitude. But as has been pointed out....this song is all about HER perspective...her unhealthy and delusional perspective. Most docs don't have a case load of patients with deep dark secrets....they have a variety of things they deal with: anxiety, guilt, depression, indecision. Not every patient is in crisis or heart breaking.

To back up another poster's point: sometimes we HAVE to laugh at life because we can't cry all the time.

[heo1128]

Posted: 4/6/09 at 2:06am

Can I just interject here with a quick quote from an ATC review? A review from a psychologist?

"I have to say that the subject is "dark" but so realistic to the realities of this topic.
I am a Psychologist and I work a lot with people with serious and persistent mental illness and their families. And let me say "kudos" to the writers. I thought they captured beautifully the struggles of the person with the illness as well as the family. some talk about the father being "weak" but he is the person keeping the family together and trying to keep things as "normal" as possible. I was so impressed with how well they handled the struggle for each person."

Source:
http://www.talkinbroadway.com/allthatchat/d.php?id=1708461

[Here I Am]

Posted: 4/6/09 at 2:22am

This whole debate is ridiculous! I feel like I didn't see the same show as a couple of you. How is this offensive at all?? And besides, even if it depicts Dr. Fine as an unacceptable doctor she changes to Dr. Madden in the middle of Act One simply because Dr. Fine WASN'T the right doctor for her.

And someone above posted that once the reviews come out they will only praise the performances and not the show. Umm, this isn't the first production of N2N. It has been reviewed many times before and it has been mostly critically praised, including Ben Brantley.

[heo1128]

Posted: 4/6/09 at 2:38am

^Exactly. Regarding Dr. Fine being an acceptable doctor, of course he is. It doesn't say anything to the contrary. As Dan says, it's like dating. You have to keep going until you find the right match.
Updated On: 4/6/09 at 02:38 AM

[jordangirl]

Posted: 4/6/09 at 7:56am

Here I Am, you are exactly right. Is he a bad doctor overall? Probably not. Is he a bad doctor for Diana? Probably so. The bottom line is there ARE doctors who will throw medication at a problem (any problem) to make it go away. Is that saying all doctors who prescribe medication are bad? No. Is that saying that all medication is bad? No. (Does the possibility exist that we as a society are over-medicated? Yes. But not everyone on medication is overmedicated. I teach special ed and I see kids who can only function with the assistance of medication...I also see kids who really don't need it but have been put on it and are like zombies.) But Diana clearly needs more than medication ~ if she needs medication at all. As she herself says (I'm paraphrasing) what if it's not in her brain or blood but in her soul? What if her diagnosis was wrong all along and she only needed to be permitted to grieve in a safe space where she didn't have to protect anyone? It's possible. We are so quick to want a label on everything we often miss the simplest answer for the glitter of "the great answers" so many think medicine provides.

And you're also right in the critical acclaim the show has already received. It got decent reviews in the 2econd Stage run. It got great reviews in the Arena run. Virtually everything the critics has issues with in the 2econd Stage run has been cleaned up and polished. So unless the reviewers have had total personality switches, I don't see them turning around and panning it.

Updated On: 4/6/09 at 07:56 AM

[once a month]

Posted: 4/6/09 at 8:27am

I also caught the 4/4 matinee. I loved it. From the opening number, which brought me back to seeing William Finns Falsettos for the first time, to the curtain calls this show had me in the in the throws of theatrical magic. I sat up front with my boyfriend, who is also a therapist. When Alice refused the second go-round of shock treatment, I uttered a "good". Big mistake! My bf deduced that I had no respect for him or his profession. At the end, he remarked how this show made him realize his passion for his work. I remarked that, as an actor, I couldn't imagine having to perform that role twice in one day. Needless to say, we broke up after the show, but unfortunatley, before Exit the King. Loved that too, but it was a bit tense! Loved it when Saradon said "don't ever look back if it's truly over"...and I did just that!

Funny how the shows this weekend mirrired my life....Happiness Friday night, Next to Normal Saturday and Exit the King, life imitating art, I'd say.

[Here I Am]

Posted: 4/6/09 at 10:31am

Thanks for agreeing jordangirl! Ya know, I understand that people have opinions and thats fine of course, but some of these people had really warped ones. lol.

Oh, and once a month. Wow! That's intense. Did you really break up because of Next to Normal?? And you still liked the show? lol. Good luck in the relationship department though. That's sad to hear

[April Saul]

Posted: 4/6/09 at 3:34pm

Hey, I have to give AndAllThatJazz22 credit here, for calmly standing his or her ground--and without going on and on in capital letters, go figure! And it has been reported on this very board that in the past, N2N did influence a couple of younger (and maybe especially susceptible) audience members on medication to throw their pills away, perhaps unwisely.

Jazz is not stupid, or an idiot, for expressing this. I saw N2N again last night, and I still like it, and I still have reservations about the anti-med stuff, although that's been toned down since the Second Stage production. Overall, it is great to have something out there to get people talking about psychiatric illness, the score is gorgeous, the acting terrific, and I hope they get themselves a Tony. Perhaps it was a mistake to even use the term "bipolar" in the show, since--and I'm not 14 and I speak from LOTS of experience with manic-depressives--it virtually always requires medication. It'd be even nicer to have a play that reflects the value of psychiatric meds that work and wonderful therapists, but then again, if Diana had found stability with those early on, what would N2N do for plot?

Did anyone else find themselves feeling sorry for Diana's husband? One thing N2N does exceptionally well, I think, it speak to the struggles of those whose loved ones are mentally ill, and man, on this viewing of N2N, my heart went out to that character...

[jordangirl]

Posted: 4/6/09 at 4:19pm

I think the primary thing at the end especially is that it could well be a misdiagnosis. Diana may not even BE bipolar. It could be extremely complicated bereavement masked by keeping busy. There are several possibilities, not all of which would require medication.

And I've got mixed emotions about Dan. Yes, I feel sorry for him, but at the same time I wonder how much of the situation he contributed to in his (at least from all appearances) refusal to fully grieve the loss they suffered. I'm not saying it's all his fault, but who knows how things could have been different if different decisions had been made. Example: Natalie. True, we don't know the whole back story, but given the clues we see, I suspect that having another baby ~ especially so soon (relatively speaking) based on the (admittedly much better) math ~ was largely Dan's idea as a way to try and help Diana "get over it" and "move on". It's a complicated web wherein no one (except Natalie who did not ask to be born with a job) is innocent. And in saying I wonder how much of the situation Dan contributed to, I am in no way blaming the victim. I'm just saying that I don't think it's as clear cut as him simply being an observer.

(And FWIW, the all caps was because of Jazz's refusal to even contemplate that this is one woman's story and that the song was from her perspective even after numerous attempts by numerous people to explain that. Sometimes all caps is the only way to get something across for the umpteenth time.)

Updated On: 4/6/09 at 04:19 PM

[teka21]

Posted: 4/6/09 at 5:01pm

And of course, having another baby may also have been Dan's wish to help HIMSELF recover- it was his loss too, why assume it was only to help Diana? I share the view that Dan, as Spencer portrays him, is not "weak" (as some have suggested). He had to shoulder the full responsibility of the family's survival, he had to stay on the ground while Diana was the roller coaster. It's not easy. This new N2N allows the perspective of each character to be considered in a much more sensitive way. I applaud the changes, and the performances.

[AndAllThatJazz22]

Posted: 4/6/09 at 5:09pm

Thank you April Saul :)

[jordangirl]

Posted: 4/6/09 at 5:10pm

Of course ~ on all counts. I've never said he is weak. But I also don't think you can say he is the innocent in the situation. In tightening it, they've made some cuts that (while the show is better with the cuts made) helped show how he pretty much from when they first met helped to enable Diana's...stuff (for lack of a better word) by giving in to her at the first sign she was getting upset about something. There's an element of control in him too ~ his single-minded "we'll call Dr. Fine..." and then "we'll get the pills, we'll pay the bills, we'll do more ECT" stand out...in those cases it seems to me like he's thinking of those options to make things easier for HIM as opposed to what really, truly, may in fact be best for Diana.

Like I said, it's not 100% anyone's "fault".

I love the nuances and the questions that come up. I think it really illustrates how interconnected things are and how nothing really ever is black and white.

[April Saul]

Posted: 4/6/09 at 5:32pm

Hi Jordangirl,
Just teasing you about the caps, we've met and I know you're a nice person. As great as it is that people are passionate enough about this show to debate it, I hate when people here gang up, or dismiss someone's opinion with name-calling. If Jazz is a kid, that's great that someone so young is excited about theater. I didn't find that song offensive like Jazz did, but I agreed with his other--larger--point.

As far as the bipolar, yeah, you are left feeling with the new production that Diana might have been misdiagnosed. I think taking out the Costco song, since that was such a strong, almost cartoon-ish representation of the manic part of bipolar, may also take the emphasis off it.

Overall, I'm really glad that N2N is here, and everyone I know who's bipolar likes the show, which tells you that it really strikes a chord. I'm not sure they'll ever be a musical that shows how indispensable the right meds and a good therapist are, since that might eliminate the dramatic tension of the character's struggle, and it might not be a sexy way to end a show. Because in real life--if the diagnosis was bipolar--that would be the actual happy ending. In the meantime, I wish N2N all the best, because at least it's got people talking about something that even now, is still somewhat taboo...

[Elphaba3]

Posted: 4/6/09 at 5:35pm

As the starter of this thread, I have three words: suspend your disbelief.

[jordangirl]

Posted: 4/6/09 at 5:41pm

We're cool April Saul! :)

And hey... jazz and I found something to agree on. We both don't like Rock of Ages. :)

[iamdangoodman]

Posted: 4/6/09 at 6:36pm

So, as you guys know, this show is very personal to me. And I want to weigh in on the question of 'fault' or 'feeling sorry for Dan' here. I have lived this, for over ten years, in ways strikingly similar to the show. We were married very young. We experienced a similar trauma. And we've struggled to find ourselves, our relationship, and appropriate medical support for much of the time. Here's what I know about 'fault'. It's actually a dynamic between the two of them that's at fault. They jumped into roles-- Dan was the "It's gonna be good" guy, totally capable of carrying it all; she was the "you have to acknowledge the loss" gal. They held each other up for years and never varied in their roleplay-- Dan insisting on his optimism, avoiding his grief; Diana taking the role of the sick person and attempting to cure them both by curing herself, Dan taking the role of her caretaker, letting her take all the space of "sick" she wanted so that he can prove he's never going to abandon her. It's not until the roles are broken-- by Diana leaving-- that Dan finally confronts himself. In the end, in my own story, we have survived it as a couple. We still struggle, but we now recognize it and have tools for dealing with it. And we stay together because we love each other, not because she can't leave or because I won't. I believe that Diana may very well come back to Dan and, if he's gotten the help the show implies he's going to seek, they can repair their lives. But maybe not. It is very, very hard work. And every time I see this show I crack open again, but without fear that I'll fall apart, which was the fear I had to overcome to face it in my own life. My wife cannot see it, and I'd never insist. Perhaps when it's in its tenth year she will finally be able to. Or maybe she can listen to the soundtrack someday. But she knows what it's given me to see myself here. And what these writers have done is tell a story that is very, very real. And it's not his fault or her fault. It is that codependent dynamic and they each have to do their part to break through it.

So, anyway... I'm holding my breath until midnight to hear the recording.

[SporkGoddess]

Posted: 4/8/09 at 2:49pm

I wanted to chime in my opinion because I'm a clinical psychology student and have just finished listening to the cast recording. Note that I haven't seen the stage show. Hopefully 2 days later isn't too late to post on this thread. I'm more of a personality disorders person than affective disorders, so some of you may disagree, but I am going on knowledge other than "my friend has it" so hopefully that's something.

I think emotionally, it's a great portrayal of mental illness. "I Miss the Mountains" really got through the idea that many bipolar patients stop taking medication because they no longer experience mania. I do think that Diana was bipolar because she discusses mania. I'd also be willing to suggest that she may have PTSD or symptoms related to it.

My biggest problem is Diana hallucinating an entire person. Hallucinations don't work that way.

That said, the portrayal of treatments is pretty awful. I'm not sure if Diana's doctors were supposed to be incompetant, or if the writers just had no idea what they were talking about. The medications they listed for her mainly included anti-depressants and anxiolytics, no anti-psychotics. Why not give someone who is clearly experiencing hallucinations an anti-psychotic?

The talk therapy is bad, too. "Make up your mind to be well"? And it seems like he induces hypnosis from the cast recording. To both I can only say: yikes.

Also, then the fact that her bipolar is clearly not treatment-resistant (the problem is getting her to stay on her regimen). So why give her ECT? And I am sooo tired of ECT being portrayed that way by popular culture. Of course, give Diana the worst possible side effect for ECT (and losing years and years of her life at that, when losing months is more common).

Finally, I got the impression that her symptoms are eventually alleviated without medication because she is able to get over her son. If this plot point is true, I find it highly unlikely. Diana was supposedly symptom-free in her 20s, and it all started when her son died, right? My guess would be that she was genetically loaded for bipolar and then that traumatic event "triggered it." So, treating the event that caused the onset would be good (btw, why did none of her therapists try this earlier?) but not entirely efficacious. If she had been majorly depressed with psychotic symptoms, I could buy it. But bipolar is too biologically-based. Mania, depression, delusions, and hallucinations are just not symptoms caused by grief that can be treated just by accepting someone's death.

I know that you all believe it doesn't matter how accurate it is. But, hey, if I nitpick Legally Blonde I can sure as heck nitpick this show. Especially when it claims to be an honest portrayal of dealing with mental illness.

Updated On: 4/8/09 at 02:49 PM

[jordangirl]

Posted: 4/8/09 at 3:40pm

Where do people get that it claims to be an honest portrayal of mental illness?

The pull quote from the Arena production that includes the phrase "blisteringly honest" when taken in context is easy to see emotionally honest is what is meant if not directly stated. I've never seen them advertise it as a documentary on mental illness set to music. Never.

Regarding some other things...

* The word used most commonly is "delusion". There is a big difference, and yes, Gabe could well be a delusion.

* There are psychiatrists trained in a form of hypnosis and it is a legit therapy in some cases with those trained in the technique.

* The medication resistant comes from the fact that she takes herself off of it because she doesn't want it. I get the impression that this has happened before. The person can be resistant to the medication by her actions. "resistant" doesn't have to mean she wasn't responding to it.

* We don't know that she in fact *does* get over Gabe. We don't know what happens beyond her leaving.

* They never confirm that her diagnosis was correct. The dialogue isn't there on the cast recording (hence it's kind of difficult to make judgments on what it does or doesn't portray), but Dr. Madden says "often the best we can do is try to label a collection of symptoms" ~ leaving open the possibility that she was misdiagnosed. Could also be why the whole assortment of pills (Or you know what? Maybe those were the ones that fit the rhythm.) exists. An attempt to help her. Further, Diana herself asks the question what if it's "not in my brain or in my blood but in my soul". That definitely leaves open the possibility that she was misdiagnosed because of that label slapped on a collection of symptoms.

[SporkGoddess]

Posted: 4/8/09 at 3:47pm

- True, but I just feel that public opinion of psychological treatment is so jaded that this will only hurt.
- Er, yeah, I know the difference between the two. Perhaps she is only delusional, but then why would she talk to him if she doesn't see him, only believes he's alive?
- Treatment-resistant AFAIK refers more to not responding to medication, not refusing to take it. And after her suicide attempt, they probably could have forced medication.
- Hypnosis isn't very efficacious with disorders like bipolar and schizophrenia. That's one of the biggest complaints about psychoanalysis. I would definitely question using it on someone who is experiencing psychotic symptoms.
- So are you arguing that, if misdiagnosed, she had another type of disorder, or that she wasn't mentally ill at all, just bereaved?
- If she doesn't get over the disorder, then I have no complaints about that part. Another review I read made it sound like she does.

Sorry, but it definitely sounds like Thomas Szasz's kind of show.

Updated On: 4/8/09 at 03:47 PM

[jake6970]

Posted: 4/8/09 at 3:54pm

We aren't told if she gets over the disorder, but I think we are to assume she doesn't. I think she really just begins to accept her grief, but it's only just the beginning.

[jordangirl]

Posted: 4/8/09 at 3:56pm

- So are you arguing that, if misdiagnosed, she had another type of disorder, or that she wasn't mentally ill at all, just bereaved?

Yes. And I think the lyrics themselves make that argument as well. It likely could very well be extremely complicated bereavement. We're given the impression that Dan has really not grieved at all ("If you don't grieve me, you won't leave me behind") and may have ~ I would hope inadvertently ~ contributed in that to Diana's state. If she felt that she had to hide how she was feeling or pretend that she's "over it" because of any signals he was giving (up to and including having Natalie) it could well be a case of extremely complicated bereavement. In which case getting out of the house and going somewhere where she feels she's allowed to grieve for him could go a long way (please note, I'm not saying that is the ONLY way) towards helping her.

And it is NEVER stated that she gets over anything. I think Dr. Madden's words are "I think she's working on it" when Dan asks if he thinks Diana will be ok. He also ~ accurately ~ does not reveal if he's still treating her or not. The last we know, she is staying at her parent's house. There is no nice neat bow for this show.

[SporkGoddess]

Posted: 4/8/09 at 4:02pm

There's DSM criteria for a depressive episode stating how to know that it isn't bereavement:

"The symptoms are not better accounted for by bereavement, i.e., after the loss of a loved one, the symptoms persist for longer than 2 months or are characterized by marked functional impairment, morbid preoccupation with worthlessness, suicidal ideation, psychotic symptoms, or psychomotor retardation."

Not that it isn't right to be sad years later, but experiencing sadness to the point of suicidality and psychotic symptoms (mania as well, which again she appears to have experienced) is probably just not grief.

Well, that's good at least. Thanks for the info. I was afraid it was like John Nash all over again!

[jordangirl]

Posted: 4/8/09 at 4:09pm

I'm well aware dear.

There also is complicated grief or bereavement.

Complicated Grief

Complicated grief reactions require more complex therapies than uncomplicated grief reactions. Adjustment disorders (especially depressed and anxious mood or disturbed emotions and behavior), major depression, substance abuse, and even post-traumatic stress disorder are some of the common problems of complicated bereavement. Complicated grief is identified by the extended duration of the symptoms, the disruption to daily life caused by the symptoms or by the intensity of the symptoms (for example, intense suicidal thoughts or acts).

Complicated or unresolved grief may appear as a complete absence of grief and mourning, an ongoing inability to experience normal grief reactions, delayed grief, conflicted grief, or chronic grief. Factors that contribute to the chance that one may experience complicated grief include the suddenness of the death, the gender of the person in mourning, and the relationship to the deceased (for example, an intense, extremely close or very contradictory relationship).

Grief reactions that turn into major depression require treatment. Someone who avoids any reminders of the person who died, who constantly thinks or dreams about the person who died, or who gets scared and panics easily at any reminders of the deceased may be suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder. Substance abuse may occur, frequently in an attempt to avoid painful feelings about the loss and consequent symptoms (such as sleeplessness), and this should also be treated.

Which is essentially what I was trying to say. We do not KNOW if Diana leaves treatment for good. We don't know what happens after she leaves beyond the fact (not present on the cast recording) that she goes to stay with her parents.

Updated On: 4/8/09 at 04:09 PM

[EveHarrington]

Posted: 4/8/09 at 5:06pm

...I just have to say that I think Jordangirl should maybe take a weekend trip to a remote place with no Alice Ripley or Next to Normal.

The show's pretty decent, a lot of flaws and a pretty irresponsible portrayal of certain aspects of mental illness (I know a few people who took away some pretty dangerous "lessons" from it), but it is fiction, people forget that sometimes. But also, I think we should remember that this is just a Broadway show, and there is no need to get as upset as some people in this thread are about it.
Updated On: 4/8/09 at 05:06 PM

[TheBoyDownstairs]

Posted: 4/8/09 at 5:30pm

Yes, it has to be remembered this is fiction and anyone who takes any serious lessons about mental illnesses are foolish. Connect to the emotional aspect of the show, of a family dealing with the consequences of Diana's mental illness.

I also think the show was vague enough in terms of not giving any sort of definite diagnosis for Diana that they arent being "irresponsible" as a few people have said they have been. As has been point out before, there is more that we DON'T know about what has happened to Diana than we actually do know.