Review: Next to Normal 4/4/09 matinee (small spoilers) — Page 4

Wow. Audience members that go to see something like N2N are not going to be your garden-variety-legally-blonde-is-the-best-show-seeing audience. It won't appeal to them.

IT IS A STORY, Diana's story. Do you watch Lifetime movies about HS kids and think they are true or representational of all HS kids???

Additionally, MANY doc DO have the put up my feet and listen attitude. But as has been pointed out....this song is all about HER perspective...her unhealthy and delusional perspective. Most docs don't have a case load of patients with deep dark secrets....they have a variety of things they deal with: anxiety, guilt, depression, indecision. Not every patient is in crisis or heart breaking.

To back up another poster's point: sometimes we HAVE to laugh at life because we can't cry all the time.

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This whole debate is ridiculous! I feel like I didn't see the same show as a couple of you. How is this offensive at all?? And besides, even if it depicts Dr. Fine as an unacceptable doctor she changes to Dr. Madden in the middle of Act One simply because Dr. Fine WASN'T the right doctor for her.

And someone above posted that once the reviews come out they will only praise the performances and not the show. Umm, this isn't the first production of N2N. It has been reviewed many times before and it has been mostly critically praised, including Ben Brantley.

Here I Am, you are exactly right. Is he a bad doctor overall? Probably not. Is he a bad doctor for Diana? Probably so. The bottom line is there ARE doctors who will throw medication at a problem (any problem) to make it go away. Is that saying all doctors who prescribe medication are bad? No. Is that saying that all medication is bad? No. (Does the possibility exist that we as a society are over-medicated? Yes. But not everyone on medication is overmedicated. I teach special ed and I see kids who can only function with the assistance of medication...I also see kids who really don't need it but have been put on it and are like zombies.) But Diana clearly needs more than medication ~ if she needs medication at all. As she herself says (I'm paraphrasing) what if it's not in her brain or blood but in her soul? What if her diagnosis was wrong all along and she only needed to be permitted to grieve in a safe space where she didn't have to protect anyone? It's possible. We are so quick to want a label on everything we often miss the simplest answer for the glitter of "the great answers" so many think medicine provides.

And you're also right in the critical acclaim the show has already received. It got decent reviews in the 2econd Stage run. It got great reviews in the Arena run. Virtually everything the critics has issues with in the 2econd Stage run has been cleaned up and polished. So unless the reviewers have had total personality switches, I don't see them turning around and panning it.

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Updated On: 4/6/09 at 07:56 AM

Thanks for agreeing jordangirl! Ya know, I understand that people have opinions and thats fine of course, but some of these people had really warped ones. lol.

Oh, and once a month. Wow! That's intense. Did you really break up because of Next to Normal?? And you still liked the show? lol. Good luck in the relationship department though. That's sad to hear

I think the primary thing at the end especially is that it could well be a misdiagnosis. Diana may not even BE bipolar. It could be extremely complicated bereavement masked by keeping busy. There are several possibilities, not all of which would require medication.

And I've got mixed emotions about Dan. Yes, I feel sorry for him, but at the same time I wonder how much of the situation he contributed to in his (at least from all appearances) refusal to fully grieve the loss they suffered. I'm not saying it's all his fault, but who knows how things could have been different if different decisions had been made. Example: Natalie. True, we don't know the whole back story, but given the clues we see, I suspect that having another baby ~ especially so soon (relatively speaking) based on the (admittedly much better) math ~ was largely Dan's idea as a way to try and help Diana "get over it" and "move on". It's a complicated web wherein no one (except Natalie who did not ask to be born with a job) is innocent. And in saying I wonder how much of the situation Dan contributed to, I am in no way blaming the victim. I'm just saying that I don't think it's as clear cut as him simply being an observer.

(And FWIW, the all caps was because of Jazz's refusal to even contemplate that this is one woman's story and that the song was from her perspective even after numerous attempts by numerous people to explain that. Sometimes all caps is the only way to get something across for the umpteenth time.)

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Updated On: 4/6/09 at 04:19 PM

Thank you April Saul :)

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Hi Jordangirl,
Just teasing you about the caps, we've met and I know you're a nice person. As great as it is that people are passionate enough about this show to debate it, I hate when people here gang up, or dismiss someone's opinion with name-calling. If Jazz is a kid, that's great that someone so young is excited about theater. I didn't find that song offensive like Jazz did, but I agreed with his other--larger--point.

As far as the bipolar, yeah, you are left feeling with the new production that Diana might have been misdiagnosed. I think taking out the Costco song, since that was such a strong, almost cartoon-ish representation of the manic part of bipolar, may also take the emphasis off it.

Overall, I'm really glad that N2N is here, and everyone I know who's bipolar likes the show, which tells you that it really strikes a chord. I'm not sure they'll ever be a musical that shows how indispensable the right meds and a good therapist are, since that might eliminate the dramatic tension of the character's struggle, and it might not be a sexy way to end a show. Because in real life--if the diagnosis was bipolar--that would be the actual happy ending. In the meantime, I wish N2N all the best, because at least it's got people talking about something that even now, is still somewhat taboo...

We're cool April Saul! :)

And hey... jazz and I found something to agree on. We both don't like Rock of Ages. :)

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I wanted to chime in my opinion because I'm a clinical psychology student and have just finished listening to the cast recording. Note that I haven't seen the stage show. Hopefully 2 days later isn't too late to post on this thread. I'm more of a personality disorders person than affective disorders, so some of you may disagree, but I am going on knowledge other than "my friend has it" so hopefully that's something.

I think emotionally, it's a great portrayal of mental illness. "I Miss the Mountains" really got through the idea that many bipolar patients stop taking medication because they no longer experience mania. I do think that Diana was bipolar because she discusses mania. I'd also be willing to suggest that she may have PTSD or symptoms related to it.

My biggest problem is Diana hallucinating an entire person. Hallucinations don't work that way.

That said, the portrayal of treatments is pretty awful. I'm not sure if Diana's doctors were supposed to be incompetant, or if the writers just had no idea what they were talking about. The medications they listed for her mainly included anti-depressants and anxiolytics, no anti-psychotics. Why not give someone who is clearly experiencing hallucinations an anti-psychotic?

The talk therapy is bad, too. "Make up your mind to be well"? And it seems like he induces hypnosis from the cast recording. To both I can only say: yikes.

Also, then the fact that her bipolar is clearly not treatment-resistant (the problem is getting her to stay on her regimen). So why give her ECT? And I am sooo tired of ECT being portrayed that way by popular culture. Of course, give Diana the worst possible side effect for ECT (and losing years and years of her life at that, when losing months is more common).

Finally, I got the impression that her symptoms are eventually alleviated without medication because she is able to get over her son. If this plot point is true, I find it highly unlikely. Diana was supposedly symptom-free in her 20s, and it all started when her son died, right? My guess would be that she was genetically loaded for bipolar and then that traumatic event "triggered it." So, treating the event that caused the onset would be good (btw, why did none of her therapists try this earlier?) but not entirely efficacious. If she had been majorly depressed with psychotic symptoms, I could buy it. But bipolar is too biologically-based. Mania, depression, delusions, and hallucinations are just not symptoms caused by grief that can be treated just by accepting someone's death.

I know that you all believe it doesn't matter how accurate it is. But, hey, if I nitpick Legally Blonde I can sure as heck nitpick this show. Especially when it claims to be an honest portrayal of dealing with mental illness.

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Updated On: 4/8/09 at 02:49 PM

- True, but I just feel that public opinion of psychological treatment is so jaded that this will only hurt.
- Er, yeah, I know the difference between the two. Perhaps she is only delusional, but then why would she talk to him if she doesn't see him, only believes he's alive?
- Treatment-resistant AFAIK refers more to not responding to medication, not refusing to take it. And after her suicide attempt, they probably could have forced medication.
- Hypnosis isn't very efficacious with disorders like bipolar and schizophrenia. That's one of the biggest complaints about psychoanalysis. I would definitely question using it on someone who is experiencing psychotic symptoms.
- So are you arguing that, if misdiagnosed, she had another type of disorder, or that she wasn't mentally ill at all, just bereaved?
- If she doesn't get over the disorder, then I have no complaints about that part. Another review I read made it sound like she does.

Sorry, but it definitely sounds like Thomas Szasz's kind of show.

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Updated On: 4/8/09 at 03:47 PM

- So are you arguing that, if misdiagnosed, she had another type of disorder, or that she wasn't mentally ill at all, just bereaved?

Yes. And I think the lyrics themselves make that argument as well. It likely could very well be extremely complicated bereavement. We're given the impression that Dan has really not grieved at all ("If you don't grieve me, you won't leave me behind") and may have ~ I would hope inadvertently ~ contributed in that to Diana's state. If she felt that she had to hide how she was feeling or pretend that she's "over it" because of any signals he was giving (up to and including having Natalie) it could well be a case of extremely complicated bereavement. In which case getting out of the house and going somewhere where she feels she's allowed to grieve for him could go a long way (please note, I'm not saying that is the ONLY way) towards helping her.

And it is NEVER stated that she gets over anything. I think Dr. Madden's words are "I think she's working on it" when Dan asks if he thinks Diana will be ok. He also ~ accurately ~ does not reveal if he's still treating her or not. The last we know, she is staying at her parent's house. There is no nice neat bow for this show.

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I'm well aware dear.

There also is complicated grief or bereavement.

Complicated Grief

Complicated grief reactions require more complex therapies than uncomplicated grief reactions. Adjustment disorders (especially depressed and anxious mood or disturbed emotions and behavior), major depression, substance abuse, and even post-traumatic stress disorder are some of the common problems of complicated bereavement. Complicated grief is identified by the extended duration of the symptoms, the disruption to daily life caused by the symptoms or by the intensity of the symptoms (for example, intense suicidal thoughts or acts).

Complicated or unresolved grief may appear as a complete absence of grief and mourning, an ongoing inability to experience normal grief reactions, delayed grief, conflicted grief, or chronic grief. Factors that contribute to the chance that one may experience complicated grief include the suddenness of the death, the gender of the person in mourning, and the relationship to the deceased (for example, an intense, extremely close or very contradictory relationship).

Grief reactions that turn into major depression require treatment. Someone who avoids any reminders of the person who died, who constantly thinks or dreams about the person who died, or who gets scared and panics easily at any reminders of the deceased may be suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder. Substance abuse may occur, frequently in an attempt to avoid painful feelings about the loss and consequent symptoms (such as sleeplessness), and this should also be treated.

Which is essentially what I was trying to say. We do not KNOW if Diana leaves treatment for good. We don't know what happens after she leaves beyond the fact (not present on the cast recording) that she goes to stay with her parents.

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Updated On: 4/8/09 at 04:09 PM

Yes, it has to be remembered this is fiction and anyone who takes any serious lessons about mental illnesses are foolish. Connect to the emotional aspect of the show, of a family dealing with the consequences of Diana's mental illness.

I also think the show was vague enough in terms of not giving any sort of definite diagnosis for Diana that they arent being "irresponsible" as a few people have said they have been. As has been point out before, there is more that we DON'T know about what has happened to Diana than we actually do know.