Schwartz - What doesn't work?- Page 2
Schwartz - What doesn't work?
#25re: Schwartz - What doesn't work?
Posted: 5/18/08 at 8:34am
was and Oz do NOT rhyme
They totally do in an English accent, and they're close enough for a song. There's a GREAT many songs don't have *perfect* rhymes, and it seems a little nitpicky to hate Schwartz because he does what so many others do.
#26re: Schwartz - What doesn't work?
Posted: 5/18/08 at 8:40amI love some of his work, like the Bakers Wife, and Children of Eden. But, listening to Wicked is difficult when you hear things like, "Listen Nessa, oh Nessa, i've got something to confessa..." are you THAT desperate for a rhyme?
#27re: Schwartz - What doesn't work?
Posted: 5/18/08 at 9:00amPopular is not a four syllable word in any way, shape or form. Except, apparently, in Schwartziland.
Cheyenne Jackson tickled me. AFTER ordering SoMMS a drink but NOT tickling him, and hanging out with Girly in his dressing room (where he DIDN'T tickle her) but BEFORE we got married. To others. And then he tweeted Boobs. He also tweeted he's good friends with some chick on "The Voice" who just happens to be good friends with Tink's ex. And I'm still married. Oh, and this just in: "Pettiness, spite, malice ....Such ugly emotions... So sad." - After Eight, talking about MEEEEEEEE!!! I'm so honored! :-)
#28re: Schwartz - What doesn't work?
Posted: 5/18/08 at 9:38am
One quick comment on the nessa rhyme...
It's "Nessa...uh Nessa, I've got something to confesss. A reason why..." when I saw it written out it made sense, but it does sound like "confessa"
One thing I don't think Schwartz gets credit for is that usually (with Pippin, Wicked, Working, etc.) he's the driving force behind the show being done. I think he's a GENIOUS at choosing subject matter that really speaks to an audience - I mean the whole story of Pippin came from him - it started as his college show.
What about the music? One the the criticisms that I've heard is that Schwartz's melodies only sound decent thanks to the orchestrations - that he almost hides behind them (especially with "Wicked") and that the melodies don't stand on their own.
Madame Morrible: "So you take the chicken, now it must be a white chicken. The corpse can be any color. And that is the spell for lost luggage!" - The Yellow Brick Road Not Taken
#29re: Schwartz - What doesn't work?
Posted: 5/18/08 at 10:48amThanks for the correction, I haven't listened to the OBCR for Wicked in probably a year, so I did it from memory.
#30re: Schwartz - What doesn't work?
Posted: 5/18/08 at 11:00am
I don't mind the rhyming inconsistencies, those don't really bother me at all as a matter of fact.
I just find that, in some of his shows, there are inconsistencies in tone and mood that don't suit the show.
For example:
I can't stand the ending of Godspell, I think it is poorly written and does not belong in that show. Maybe in Jesus Christ Superstar, but not in Godspell. To be honest, I think Jesus's death should be a quick book scene, with a blackout signifying death. A song should follow.
Also, I think "No One Mourns the Wicked" is horribly out of place and a terrible beginning to a show that actually has potential to be very good. I find that most of Wicked is inconsistent, but actually has the potential to be very good.
As for Pippin, the problem is the book. The score is very good (one of his best), the Fosse choreography is excellent (but that goes without saying), but the book is just ridiculous, inconsistent, and definitely weak. That book is what prevents Pippin from being a really great show.
#31re: Schwartz - What doesn't work?
Posted: 5/18/08 at 11:26am
Question about the end of "Godspell"
I agree with you. But I know a lot of people (serious B'way people) who HATE the ending, but when they go and watch it, they're sobbing in the audience. Analytically they hate it, but it still moves them. Why? Is it just that the subject matter transcends how it's being communicated? If so, why doesn't Schwartz get more credit for the type of shows he's writing? (I know "Godspell" didn't originate with him - but the others...)
Madame Morrible: "So you take the chicken, now it must be a white chicken. The corpse can be any color. And that is the spell for lost luggage!" - The Yellow Brick Road Not Taken
#32re: Schwartz - What doesn't work?
Posted: 5/18/08 at 11:35am
GODSPELL - his score shows much promise for a new and young writer. Many of the lyrics (Turn Back O Man, All for the Best) are clever and I like his use of a variety of musical styles. Unlike a previous poster I find the final scene (though repetitive) much more emotionally effective than JC SUPERSTAR.
PIPPIN - if the book were at the level of the score this show would be a classic. It seems as if Schwartz was writing for the characters without knowing the plot. I wish someone would rewrite the book around the existing score.
THE MAGIC SHOW - when the book isn't there and the characters are paper thin a composer/lyricist is in trouble. The most interesting piece in the score is "West End Avenue" but story wise it doesn't go anywhere. All 3 shows reveal his talent for writing fantastic opening numbers (Prepare Ye, Magic to Do, Up to his Old tricks) but without a plot or character to drive the score it is, as Stanley Green noted, an empty bag of tricks.
THE BAKER'S WIFE - The problem with this show is that there wasn't enough plot to sustain two acts. Maybe it should have been a one-act piece. "Meadowlark" has won deserved popularity, but once again the composer is let down by a poor book.
WORKING - A really interesting concept that never quite works on stage. Schwartz's contributions include "It's an Art" which is one of his best character songs. Everything we need to know about this waitress is covered beautifully, set to a beguiling melody. "Neat to be a Newsboy" is a fun little throwaway.
RAGS - There were many problems with this show, and here again Schwartz (as lyricist) is let down by uninteresting characters. The title song has so much bite it is a shame the rest isn't up to that level.
WICKED - Here, at least, Schwartz has a good story and some really interesting characters. "For Good" shows the composer at his best writing for character and weaving in true emotion. At the other end of the scale is "Dancing Through life." What this score cries out for is some musical motifs for each character. Too often I sense each song is written as a stand-alone piece rather than part of an integrated whole. Still, it is an impressive achievement and has done something very few contemporary Broadway scores have been able to do: connect with a large audience weaned on pop music and no interested in story telling.
Schwartz is a talented writer and I wonder what he would do if given a really strong book and dynamic characters.
What is disappointing is that he has only had 5 full scores (one was lyrics only) reach Broadway in almost 40 years. There is something very wrong about that!
Cast albums are NOT "soundtracks."
Live theatre does not use a "soundtrack." If it did, it wouldn't be live theatre!
I host a weekly one-hour radio program featuring cast album selections as well as songs by cabaret, jazz and theatre artists. The program, FRONT ROW CENTRE is heard Sundays 9 to 10 am and also Saturdays from 8 to 9 am (eastern times) on www.proudfm.com
#33re: Schwartz - What doesn't work?
Posted: 5/18/08 at 12:08pm
Yeah - it's 'cause he spent so much time at Disney...
I would love to see him do a show with James Lapine...
Madame Morrible: "So you take the chicken, now it must be a white chicken. The corpse can be any color. And that is the spell for lost luggage!" - The Yellow Brick Road Not Taken
#34re: Schwartz - What doesn't work?
Posted: 5/18/08 at 1:27pm
Weez, i didn't know Oz was in Great Britain.
it's just lazy. write a better lyric, especially in the opening sixteen bars of your show.
I stand by my claim that he's a poor lyricist, but nonetheless I do agree with frontrow that a lot of the shows he's worked on suffer in other aspects and it holds his work back.
#35re: Schwartz - What doesn't work?
Posted: 5/18/08 at 1:57pm
Lyrically--of all his songs I've heard--the only weak link for me was "True Love's Kiss" from ENCHANTED because the rhymes fall on such weird words--this, for example.
As for WICKED, if one really wants to complain about rhyme choices, look at CAROUSEL or FINIAN'S RAINBOW. Many of the great theatre scores of the past fudge things far, far more than Schwartz does in WICKED.
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Phyllis Rogers Stone
Broadway Legend Joined: 9/16/07
#36re: Schwartz - What doesn't work?
Posted: 5/18/08 at 2:18pm
Weez, i didn't know Oz was in Great Britain.
Well, even though we hear English when we see it, is that the language the characters are speaking?
And I agree with what Weez said about Schwartz getting slammed for what virtually all composers do.
#37re: Schwartz - What doesn't work?
Posted: 5/18/08 at 2:40pmI have been reading this thread, and was fine with it until I read that dialysis has nothing to do with personality........ how about the "cleansing" of the personality. A change for the better? And since when does Oz not rhyme with was? Or do some people still say "WUZ"?
sondhead
Broadway Star Joined: 10/25/06
#38re: Schwartz - What doesn't work?
Posted: 5/18/08 at 2:51pm
I think the main problem is his lyrics STINK
Dancing through life
Down at the Ozdust
If only because dust is what we come to
terrrrible
sondhead
Broadway Star Joined: 10/25/06
#39re: Schwartz - What doesn't work?
Posted: 5/18/08 at 2:54pm
"I have been reading this thread, and was fine with it until I read that dialysis has nothing to do with personality"
Dialysis is a medical process. It doesn't mean cleansing. It means "the separation of particles in a liquid on the basis of differences in their ability to pass through a membrane." That has absolutely nothing to do with cleansing.
#40re: Schwartz - What doesn't work?
Posted: 5/18/08 at 2:57pm
I think the main problem is his lyrics STINK
- I love you. Straight forward and perfectly put.
To 12 year old girls his lyrics are God, but once you hear/read lyrics from the true lyricists of the theatre - there is no competition.
#41re: Schwartz - What doesn't work?
Posted: 5/18/08 at 3:31pmFor the record I've always known the lyric was "...confess. A reason why..." and it's still stupid.
Mythus
Broadway Legend Joined: 8/16/04
#42re: Schwartz - What doesn't work?
Posted: 5/18/08 at 4:16pm
For the record I've always known the lyric was "...confess. A reason why..." and it's still stupid.
Agreed. I can't for the life of me figure out why he didn't make the lyric "I've got something to confess, the reason why..." You change that lyric, Stephen, and then we'll talk.
#43re: Schwartz - What doesn't work?
Posted: 5/18/08 at 4:26pm
"Oh Noah, you go-a all the way back to the protazoa!"
-Children of Eden
Need I say more?
Theatre is a safe place to do the unsafe things that need to be done.
-John Patrick Shanley
#44re: Schwartz - What doesn't work?
Posted: 5/18/08 at 4:28pmExcuse me for not letting go of the dialysis thing, but dialysis takes the place of kidneys that have lost their function. Kidneys filter waste from the blood and excrete it with water in the form of urine......... hence the term "cleansing". Schwartz's lyrics are clever and sometimes require thought..... everything is not spelled out and handed to us. I think he handles inner rhymes very well. He just doesn't always take the obvious route when it comes to rhyming. I find his writing very appealing at times and some of you don't. That's good........... theatre would be so dull if we all had the same tastes. Thanks for letting me explain why I find "personality dialysis" one of the cleverest and funniest lines in WICKED.
#45re: Schwartz - What doesn't work?
Posted: 5/18/08 at 4:32pm
Schwartz's lyrics are clever and sometimes require thought.....
- Are you sure you're not talking about the other SS? Stephen Sondheim? You MUST be.
#46re: Schwartz - What doesn't work?
Posted: 5/18/08 at 5:07pm
Cleverness for cleverness's sake is not justification enough for bad rhymes.
E.Y. Harburg, IMHO, is a lyric god, but one from an era where discerning lyrical palates and internet pundits were not as prevalent as today.
Example from FINIAN'S RAINBOW (Harburg):
"I might be
mannishish or mouse-ish
I might be
a fowl or fish.
But with you
I'm Eisenhous-ish
please accept my proposish."
Good God, that's bad.
But then, a similarly forced rhyme (this one from Schwartz) can work perfectly well:
From POCAHONTAS:
"Shove in a shovel,
uncover those lovel-
y pebbles that sparkle and shine -
It's gold, and it's mine, mine, mine!"
And then there's Bob Merrill ...
"The coward, he
deflowered me
and fled."
I've been in two productions of CARNIVAL, and that line iwas always met with gales of silence.
Again, a Schwartz lyric I adore:
"Sages tweet
that age is sweet,
good deeds and good works earn you laurels.
But what could make you feel
more obsolete
than being noted for your morals?"
Here's some forced cleverness from Anthony Newley that I like in spite of myself:
"I'm all I need.
If I've got me,
who needs people?
The guy you'll see
at the top of the heap'll
be me!"
or
"Kid, if you're wondering
who your Dad is
Look at the last of the
big-time baddies ..."
I guess all I'm saying is that lyrical interpretation is best left to the listener. For me, Schwartz is a great lyricist. I just don't care for all of his shows.
More "sudents" of lyric-writing would be well-advised to look backwards and appreciate more the early works of Lorenz Hart, Ira Gershwin and of course W.S. Gilbert, the greatest lyricist of all time. And then to Sheldon Harnick, Dorothy Fields, Fred Ebb Tim Rice, Schwartz and young Sondheim. There is genius there.
#47re: Schwartz - What doesn't work?
Posted: 5/18/08 at 5:13pm
THIS is an example of clever lyrics/rhymes.
It's a hit, it's a hit
Will my folks have a fit?
After all of that baloney
They made me go through,
All that "honey not that he's a phony,
But what doe's he do?"
Will their faces be stony
When they see on their Sony
Someone handing the phony
The Tony
Award!
Updated On: 5/18/08 at 05:13 PM
SporkGoddess
Broadway Legend Joined: 7/27/05
#48re: Schwartz - What doesn't work?
Posted: 5/18/08 at 5:19pm
His best lyrics IMO are actually in his music for Disney/Disney-ish movies. I LOVE the words to "Heaven's Eyes" from the Prince of Egypt. Pocahontas and Hunchback also have some great lyrics, though Pocahontas has a few clunkers in that he makes it too obvious: "They're different from us / which means they must be evil." Wow, subtle.
"Hell Fire" also has one that stands out. "Don't let this siren cast her spell / Don't let her fire sear my flesh and bone / Destroy Esmeralda /And let her taste the fires of hell / Or else let her be mine or mine alone" I like it until that last part there.
Jimmy, what are you doing here in the middle of the night? It's almost 9 PM!
#49re: Schwartz - What doesn't work?
Posted: 5/18/08 at 5:20pmI didn't even mention Sondheim because he is always brilliant.
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