Schwartz - What doesn't work?
Schwartz - What doesn't work?
#1Schwartz - What doesn't work?
Posted: 5/17/08 at 11:11am
Hey guys! I'm working on a survey project, and I was wondering if you could tell me (in as analytical, and unemotional a way) what you think doesn't work about Stephen Schwartz's music/lyrics. Please no "he sucks!" comments, even if you think so, tell me why.
Thanks!
Madame Morrible: "So you take the chicken, now it must be a white chicken. The corpse can be any color. And that is the spell for lost luggage!" - The Yellow Brick Road Not Taken
#2re: Schwartz - What doesn't work?
Posted: 5/17/08 at 11:16amI really like stephen schwartz and think he is a very talented composer and lyricist. i think that he does not necessarily have a "style" and that he writes for each specific production in a new way, which I love. I DO think that his almost "pop" music (wicked, children of eden) is my favorite, because it is catchy and fun, with clever lyrics. I do not love the style of godspell, but maybe that is because i don't like that musical. overall, i really like him and think he is one of the best musical theatre composers of this time.
"The good news is I have an excellent Tony speech. The bad news is I've had it for forty-five years."-Elaine Stritch
Mr Roxy
Broadway Legend Joined: 5/17/03
#2re: Schwartz - What doesn't work?
Posted: 5/17/08 at 11:21am
I like some of his scores - Pippin & Bakers Wife while I did not like Wicked.
He also does not write as many scores as others do.
Poster Emeritus
SporkGoddess
Broadway Legend Joined: 7/27/05
#3re: Schwartz - What doesn't work?
Posted: 5/17/08 at 11:46amI think his rhyming is a huge problem. His lyrics tend to suffer because a lot of his rhymes are too trite (is that the word for it?) and he also forces it a lot. My huge problem with Wicked's lyrics is that he made up words just whenever he needed a rhyme.
Jimmy, what are you doing here in the middle of the night? It's almost 9 PM!
#4re: Schwartz - What doesn't work?
Posted: 5/17/08 at 11:52amI don't know if I mind made up words (I think a lot of them in "Wicked" are cute) but certain ones like "analysis, personality dialysis) bother me...
Madame Morrible: "So you take the chicken, now it must be a white chicken. The corpse can be any color. And that is the spell for lost luggage!" - The Yellow Brick Road Not Taken
#5re: Schwartz - What doesn't work?
Posted: 5/17/08 at 12:10pmI honestly LOVE Schwartz's work - but I know a lot of people don't. I thought it would be great to discuss it on the boards - especially since everyone usually says some variation of "I love Schwartz" "I hate Schwartz"
Madame Morrible: "So you take the chicken, now it must be a white chicken. The corpse can be any color. And that is the spell for lost luggage!" - The Yellow Brick Road Not Taken
#6re: Schwartz - What doesn't work?
Posted: 5/17/08 at 1:36pm
I'm on the fence about Schwartz:
1. I love his writing - except for when I don't.
2. I think PIPPIN, THE BAKER'S WIFE, POCAHONTAS & HUNCHBACK (yes, I know he only did lyrics for the last two...) are works of musical theatre genius.
3. I think everything else is inferior in composition and lyricism.
4. Impossibly, I find GODSPELL more off-puttingly sixtie-ish than HAIR.
5. The entire second act of THE BAKER'S WIFE is made up of reprises - the calling card of the composer who has run out of ideas.
6. I had nothing but high hopes for WICKED - then I saw it. Overblown flash, fashioned to cover up the fact that there's only one good song in the score.
7. PIPPIN has not even one dud in the entire score.
#7re: Schwartz - What doesn't work?
Posted: 5/17/08 at 1:54pm
For the most part, I like Stephen Schwartz. Pippin is fantastic, and I like Wicked, more or less.
The only thing he's done that ever bugged me was stretching the word 'vacuum' into three syllables in "Happy Working Song" in Enchanted. Vac-u-um. I cringe when I hear that one.
"You mean what was the best picture of the year or what did they pick as the best picture of the year?" - California Suite
#8re: Schwartz - What doesn't work?
Posted: 5/17/08 at 1:58pm
My problem with him is his need to constantly recycle his melodies. He is not original at all.
For example
In Whatever Time We Have and As Long As You're Mine are basically the same exact song.
#9re: Schwartz - What doesn't work?
Posted: 5/17/08 at 2:36pmDialysis actually is a word.
-Benjamin
--http://www.benjaminadgate.com/
--http://www.benjaminadgate.com/
#10re: Schwartz - What doesn't work?
Posted: 5/17/08 at 2:47pmYes, it is, but it doesn't apply to personality.
"You mean what was the best picture of the year or what did they pick as the best picture of the year?" - California Suite
Broadway Star Joined: 12/31/69
#11re: Schwartz - What doesn't work?
Posted: 5/17/08 at 3:28pm
Gosh imagine the hundreds of millions of dollars more he could have made off Wicked with a GOOD score!
The pinheads on this board amaze me.
#12re: Schwartz - What doesn't work?
Posted: 5/17/08 at 3:48pmBite me, Joe. Are you telling us we're not allowed to have problems with somebody's work as long as it made money?
"You mean what was the best picture of the year or what did they pick as the best picture of the year?" - California Suite
#13re: Schwartz - What doesn't work?
Posted: 5/17/08 at 3:55pm
What I can't figure out about his score for "Wicked" is when I analyze it - there are big problems. But when I sit through the show I LOVE it - somehow the message shines though in context. Seems to be true with all his shows. The songs need to be heard in context.
An opposite example for me is the score for "Spring Awakening". I LOVE listening to the cast album, but the songs don't really do anything for me in the context of the show... (don't hate me!)
Madame Morrible: "So you take the chicken, now it must be a white chicken. The corpse can be any color. And that is the spell for lost luggage!" - The Yellow Brick Road Not Taken
blaxx
Broadway Legend Joined: 6/28/05
#14re: Schwartz - What doesn't work?
Posted: 5/17/08 at 4:44pm
He's a sell off - that's why it's hard to take his work seriously, and that's also why:
"Stephen Schwartz could use that Tony, for he's never won before - you could save a starving writeeeeeeeeeeeeeeer..."
Listen, I don't take my clothes off for anyone, even if it is "artistic". - JANICE
#15re: Schwartz - What doesn't work?
Posted: 5/17/08 at 4:56pm
haha yeah wickeder is pretty funny...
but joe? why are we pinheads for liking a really successful composer and lyricist? sure, he's no sondheim, and i agree with the person that said as long as your mine and in whatever time we have are the same, but their is a REASON he is successful...
"The good news is I have an excellent Tony speech. The bad news is I've had it for forty-five years."-Elaine Stritch
#16re: Schwartz - What doesn't work?
Posted: 5/17/08 at 4:57pm*there
"The good news is I have an excellent Tony speech. The bad news is I've had it for forty-five years."-Elaine Stritch
#17re: Schwartz - What doesn't work?
Posted: 5/17/08 at 5:02pm
Very nicely put both!
What I find interesting is how someone can be SO successful, and SO critically panned. All the other writers that I can think of who that's happened to became jokes pretty fast - but not with Schwartz. Sure, people don't like his work, but you can't deny that people are deeply moved by his shows...
Madame Morrible: "So you take the chicken, now it must be a white chicken. The corpse can be any color. And that is the spell for lost luggage!" - The Yellow Brick Road Not Taken
blaxx
Broadway Legend Joined: 6/28/05
#18re: Schwartz - What doesn't work?
Posted: 5/17/08 at 5:07pmFrom the beginning of times, the most accessible is the most popular. Always.
Listen, I don't take my clothes off for anyone, even if it is "artistic". - JANICE
#19re: Schwartz - What doesn't work?
Posted: 5/17/08 at 5:12pmVacuum IS a three syllable word, if you can speak proper English. :P
#20re: Schwartz - What doesn't work?
Posted: 5/17/08 at 9:59pmThat's true, but I've been listening to colloquial English for most of my life. 'course, I pronounce all of the syllables in 'comfortable', so I've got no excuse at all.
"You mean what was the best picture of the year or what did they pick as the best picture of the year?" - California Suite
Phyllis Rogers Stone
Broadway Legend Joined: 9/16/07
#21re: Schwartz - What doesn't work?
Posted: 5/17/08 at 11:06pm
I love his writing - except for when I don't.
Ahahaha! I agree with almost everything you said about Schwartz.
He's inconsistent. Wildly.
I always hear people say "Pippin without FOSSE is nothing!" and I'm like, what, I love that score.
I thought a lot of Enchanted's lyrics were clever, but I do think he kinds of veers toward the uninspired and occasionally hacky.
And I think that Wicked contains a disproportionate amount of really cringe-worthy lyrics, but I've mostly found it an enjoyable night of theatre, the handful of times I saw it. Schwartz's contribution to my enjoyment of that show is minimal.
Frankly, I always thought of his body of work as rather ineffectual before Wicked. I liked Pippin, I LOVED Godspell when I was 12 but got over it and I love the song Meadowlark but I've never heard one note of another from that show.
I DO think he gets a little too much kicking because of Wicked's backlash, because I really don't think HE is the responsible for most of its success.
SporkGoddess
Broadway Legend Joined: 7/27/05
#22re: Schwartz - What doesn't work?
Posted: 5/18/08 at 2:09am
I adore "Meadowlark." "Lion Tamer" is a cute song, too. He has a few good ones. But even his better shows like The Baker's Wife have some clunker of lyrics. For instance: He gives it his all / So why do I sit here / Remembering Paul
Enchanted had one lyric that made me cringe: And that's the reason we need lips so much / for lips are the only things that touch
Jimmy, what are you doing here in the middle of the night? It's almost 9 PM!
#23re: Schwartz - What doesn't work?
Posted: 5/18/08 at 2:46amMy biggest issue with Shwartz is his lyrics. Though interestingly when he focuses on one or the other I tend to like him better as is the case with Hunchback of Notre Dame. With other projects when he attempts to write both the music and the lyrics one always seems to suffer and for me it's usually the lyrics. In general I feel like he tries to be too clever and it ends up backfiring big time. If he would just keep it simple he could do better.
#24re: Schwartz - What doesn't work?
Posted: 5/18/08 at 3:00am
I think Schwartz is a far better melodist than he is a lyricist, to say the least.
He does pick great source material, though, and he writes some great songs, but his lyrics are always what makes his work subpar:
examples: "Alas, alas for you, lawyers and pharisees, hypocrites to a man" - quite an awkward mouthful.
"the wickedest witch there ever was, the enemy of all of us here in Oz, is dead" - was and Oz do NOT rhyme.
There's a lot of sloppy inconsistencies in all of his works lyrically and often his rhythms fall prey to those awkward lyrics, and to accomodate them, get awkward as well.
imo, at least. When he gets both right, (like with "Meadowlark") his songs REALLY take off.
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