#51
Posted: 5/18/08 at 5:24pm
Haha, I know. I just felt like posting those because they are some of my favorite lyrical rhymes.
Schwartz - What doesn't work? — Page 3
#52
Posted: 5/18/08 at 5:43pm
On the "dialysis" argument...
Dialysis helps the body by performing the functions of failed kidneys. The joke "...Think of it as personality dialysis" is playing off the fact that Elphaba lacks personality - and with making her popular, Glinda will be replacing the "failed personality." Kind of cute.
That being said, I feel like Schwartz's music and lyrics have begun to lack any real creativity. Granted, I'm not a Stephen Schwartz buff, but you can hear a clear difference between Pippin and Wicked... though I don't think his rhymes have ever been too clever.
Dialysis helps the body by performing the functions of failed kidneys. The joke "...Think of it as personality dialysis" is playing off the fact that Elphaba lacks personality - and with making her popular, Glinda will be replacing the "failed personality." Kind of cute.
That being said, I feel like Schwartz's music and lyrics have begun to lack any real creativity. Granted, I'm not a Stephen Schwartz buff, but you can hear a clear difference between Pippin and Wicked... though I don't think his rhymes have ever been too clever.
#53
Posted: 5/18/08 at 6:16pm
I take great exception to the E.Y. Harburg lyric from FINIAN'S RAINBOW quoted as a supposed example of "bad" lyric writing:
"I might be
mannishish or mouse-ish
I might be
a fowl or fish.
But with you
I'm Eisenhous-ish
please accept my proposish."
The writer who quoted the above lyric may not know the plot of FINIAN'S RAINBOW nor the set up for the song. For those who don’t know the show, it is sung by Og, a leprechaun who is gradually becoming mortal. Many critics at the time praised the song and Harburg's clever device of adding the suffix "ish" to many of the words in the lyric. If nothing else, it adds a pixie quality that makes Og all the more endearing. FINIAN'S RAINBOW is part fantasy, and the leprechaun is not rooted in the real world. Once he learns that adding ish can enhance one word, he simply takes it to the extreme and an amusing and charming way.
I have the same concern with those who post here about how "bad" Oscar Hammerstein's lyrics for CAROUSEL are, conveniently forgetting that Hammerstein was writing in a New England dialect for characters that were not highly educated.
"I might be
mannishish or mouse-ish
I might be
a fowl or fish.
But with you
I'm Eisenhous-ish
please accept my proposish."
The writer who quoted the above lyric may not know the plot of FINIAN'S RAINBOW nor the set up for the song. For those who don’t know the show, it is sung by Og, a leprechaun who is gradually becoming mortal. Many critics at the time praised the song and Harburg's clever device of adding the suffix "ish" to many of the words in the lyric. If nothing else, it adds a pixie quality that makes Og all the more endearing. FINIAN'S RAINBOW is part fantasy, and the leprechaun is not rooted in the real world. Once he learns that adding ish can enhance one word, he simply takes it to the extreme and an amusing and charming way.
I have the same concern with those who post here about how "bad" Oscar Hammerstein's lyrics for CAROUSEL are, conveniently forgetting that Hammerstein was writing in a New England dialect for characters that were not highly educated.
Cast albums are NOT "soundtracks."
Live theatre does not use a "soundtrack." If it did, it wouldn't be live theatre!
I host a weekly one-hour radio program featuring cast album selections as well as songs by cabaret, jazz and theatre artists. The program, FRONT ROW CENTRE is heard Sundays 9 to 10 am and also Saturdays from 8 to 9 am (eastern times) on www.proudfm.com
#54
Posted: 5/18/08 at 6:43pm
I think Stephen Schwartz is a wonderful composer. I've heard him speak before about some of his works, and he's a very bright and very thoughtful person.
I hated Pippin, I love Wicked...I don't know if that means anything to you, but, there you have it. Admittedly, Wicked does have its share of filler music, but its got a handful of real gems.
I hated Pippin, I love Wicked...I don't know if that means anything to you, but, there you have it. Admittedly, Wicked does have its share of filler music, but its got a handful of real gems.
#55
Posted: 5/18/08 at 8:58pm
Why do you think Schwartz gets flack for his lyrics, but other composers don't?
Here's my problem with dialysis. For me it's so associated with a cancer treatment. It felt a little insensitive to me using that word... but that's just me.
No one's mentioned "Children of Eden"
Here's my problem with dialysis. For me it's so associated with a cancer treatment. It felt a little insensitive to me using that word... but that's just me.
No one's mentioned "Children of Eden"
Madame Morrible: "So you take the chicken, now it must be a white chicken. The corpse can be any color. And that is the spell for lost luggage!" - The Yellow Brick Road Not Taken
#56
Posted: 5/18/08 at 10:03pm
I thought dialysis is more associated with renal problems.
Jimmy, what are you doing here in the middle of the night? It's almost 9 PM!
#57
Posted: 5/18/08 at 10:34pm
No, for certain types of cancer they put you on dialysis
Madame Morrible: "So you take the chicken, now it must be a white chicken. The corpse can be any color. And that is the spell for lost luggage!" - The Yellow Brick Road Not Taken
#58
Posted: 5/18/08 at 10:45pm
WEST END AVENUE, btw, has a big geographical flaw in its lyrics. WEA is a residential street. There are no delis, laundromats or gay bars - just huge, gorgeous and expensive apartment buildings. And it's been like that for decades.
Cheyenne Jackson tickled me. AFTER ordering SoMMS a drink but NOT tickling him, and hanging out with Girly in his dressing room (where he DIDN'T tickle her) but BEFORE we got married. To others. And then he tweeted Boobs. He also tweeted he's good friends with some chick on "The Voice" who just happens to be good friends with Tink's ex. And I'm still married. Oh, and this just in: "Pettiness, spite, malice ....Such ugly emotions... So sad." - After Eight, talking about MEEEEEEEE!!! I'm so honored! :-)
#59
Posted: 5/19/08 at 1:22am
I really don't have a problem with rhyming "frank analysis" with "personality dialysis." I even find it clever and get what he's going for there. But when that next line kicks in and he tries for a third rhyme with "a pal, a sis-ter" it drives me up the wall.
I think the score of Pippin is fantastic and really enjoy Children of Eden, but I think some of his very best work is in The Prince of Egypt.
I think the score of Pippin is fantastic and really enjoy Children of Eden, but I think some of his very best work is in The Prince of Egypt.
#60
Posted: 5/19/08 at 12:41pm
too true.
Madame Morrible: "So you take the chicken, now it must be a white chicken. The corpse can be any color. And that is the spell for lost luggage!" - The Yellow Brick Road Not Taken
#61
Posted: 5/19/08 at 12:55pm
Back to the original poster's question, it was said earlier,
Schwartz doesn't work because he doesn't have a definable style, you can't listen to something right away and say "That is a Schwartz song" unless you know what musical it's from. Whereas other composers have styles that define them and can be instantly recognized. He needs to find out who he is as a composer and not what he thinks will work best for whatever he's writing.
Schwartz doesn't work because he doesn't have a definable style, you can't listen to something right away and say "That is a Schwartz song" unless you know what musical it's from. Whereas other composers have styles that define them and can be instantly recognized. He needs to find out who he is as a composer and not what he thinks will work best for whatever he's writing.
http://theaterfag.blogspot.com/
Reviews and the like
#62
Posted: 5/19/08 at 1:20pm
Music-wise, Schwartz is an oddity to me: he is the only writer I know who writes pop melodies that, on a first listen, sound bland and unexceptional. But once you listen a few more times, the score begins to shine and you end up addicted.
Lyric-wise, Schwartz falls into the same trap as all pop writers do in that his lyrics strain too hard to be "poetic" and "wise", and usually end up "pretentious". But he has his moments.
Lyric-wise, Schwartz falls into the same trap as all pop writers do in that his lyrics strain too hard to be "poetic" and "wise", and usually end up "pretentious". But he has his moments.
"Y'know, I think Bertolt Brecht was rolling in his grave."
-Nellie McKay on the 2006 Broadway production of The Threepenny Opera, in which she played Polly Peachum
-Nellie McKay on the 2006 Broadway production of The Threepenny Opera, in which she played Polly Peachum
#63
Posted: 5/19/08 at 1:23pm
Isn't it good for a composer not to be instantly recognizable? A lot of composers fall into the trap of always sounding "like themselves"
Madame Morrible: "So you take the chicken, now it must be a white chicken. The corpse can be any color. And that is the spell for lost luggage!" - The Yellow Brick Road Not Taken
#64
Posted: 5/19/08 at 3:58pm
Really, I would say he does have a distinct sound of poppy upbeat-ness.
Pippin was wonderful. I always The Baker's Wife needed some more "oomph". Working had a lot of wonderful moments, but that'sall it was, a bunch of moments
Wicked really killed me because he botched something that could have been utter brilliance. (Though I blame Winnie for that more) The best songs for me were Popular, Defying Gravity, Wonderful, and For Good. But Popular actually doesn't fit what the musical should have been. His songs, even while good, are always cliche. And when they aren't rescued by the quality of the song, they fall embarrassingly flat. (The Wizard and I, No Good Deed, Thank Goodness) however, the actors and the spectacle as well as the story usually make his shows click, even if he fails to. He does set up his actors for some big glory numbers.
Pippin was wonderful. I always The Baker's Wife needed some more "oomph". Working had a lot of wonderful moments, but that'sall it was, a bunch of moments
Wicked really killed me because he botched something that could have been utter brilliance. (Though I blame Winnie for that more) The best songs for me were Popular, Defying Gravity, Wonderful, and For Good. But Popular actually doesn't fit what the musical should have been. His songs, even while good, are always cliche. And when they aren't rescued by the quality of the song, they fall embarrassingly flat. (The Wizard and I, No Good Deed, Thank Goodness) however, the actors and the spectacle as well as the story usually make his shows click, even if he fails to. He does set up his actors for some big glory numbers.
#65
Posted: 5/19/08 at 4:02pm
i agree with Frontrow's assessment mostly. It's funny that some of you have posted Yip Harburg (lyricist of Wizard of Oz)lyrics as examples of bad lyrics, when some of Schwartz's lyrics are a purposeful nod to him.
Schwartz's songs (music/lyrics) do have a similar feel. There is a good hook in the accompaniment (usually something virtuosic pianistically - i.e Meadowlark), they are very melodic, and often have a "folk-ish" quality (i.e. 70's folk music). Sometimes his lyrics do fall into a "too clever" category, but if any of you have heard him speak, he actually uses a big, descriptive vocabulary in his everyday speech. It's not so unusual for that verbosity to creep into his writing.
I tend to appreciate his earlier work, even if the shows are marred with problems. It is very difficult to fault any of the songs in PIPPIN or GODSPELL. They are fresh, fun, melodic, and a HUGE part of the success of those two shows. AND...his first 3 hits, were all written when he was in his early 20's! Fresh out of school.
His later work exhibits more of a trend in using motifs and themes to create a unified score, rather than just hit songs. I think this is very evident in WICKED, EDEN, and PRINCE of EGYPT (and there are killer songs in each of those shows).
Oh - one more thing. To the person who criticized the ENCHANTED lyric ("lips are the only thing that touch") - did you stop to think of how illuminating that lyric really is? In this animated world, there is no dating, no sex. It also helps establish the Giselle's character and what journey she will take. Good writing, fun movie.
Schwartz's songs (music/lyrics) do have a similar feel. There is a good hook in the accompaniment (usually something virtuosic pianistically - i.e Meadowlark), they are very melodic, and often have a "folk-ish" quality (i.e. 70's folk music). Sometimes his lyrics do fall into a "too clever" category, but if any of you have heard him speak, he actually uses a big, descriptive vocabulary in his everyday speech. It's not so unusual for that verbosity to creep into his writing.
I tend to appreciate his earlier work, even if the shows are marred with problems. It is very difficult to fault any of the songs in PIPPIN or GODSPELL. They are fresh, fun, melodic, and a HUGE part of the success of those two shows. AND...his first 3 hits, were all written when he was in his early 20's! Fresh out of school.
His later work exhibits more of a trend in using motifs and themes to create a unified score, rather than just hit songs. I think this is very evident in WICKED, EDEN, and PRINCE of EGYPT (and there are killer songs in each of those shows).
Oh - one more thing. To the person who criticized the ENCHANTED lyric ("lips are the only thing that touch") - did you stop to think of how illuminating that lyric really is? In this animated world, there is no dating, no sex. It also helps establish the Giselle's character and what journey she will take. Good writing, fun movie.
#66
Posted: 5/19/08 at 10:42pm
Nice
Madame Morrible: "So you take the chicken, now it must be a white chicken. The corpse can be any color. And that is the spell for lost luggage!" - The Yellow Brick Road Not Taken
#67
Posted: 5/19/08 at 10:56pm
That would be me. I just think it's a clunky lyric and doesn't even make sense grammatically.
Jimmy, what are you doing here in the middle of the night? It's almost 9 PM!
#68
Posted: 5/20/08 at 11:45am
Has anyone noticed that the musical phrase for
"My beautiful young man and I" from Meadowlark
is the same as
"My little big red plane and I" from Captain Louis?
"My beautiful young man and I" from Meadowlark
is the same as
"My little big red plane and I" from Captain Louis?
Madame Morrible: "So you take the chicken, now it must be a white chicken. The corpse can be any color. And that is the spell for lost luggage!" - The Yellow Brick Road Not Taken
#69
Posted: 5/21/08 at 9:01am
Bump
Madame Morrible: "So you take the chicken, now it must be a white chicken. The corpse can be any color. And that is the spell for lost luggage!" - The Yellow Brick Road Not Taken
#70
Posted: 5/21/08 at 10:11am
He has had a 35 year career touching millions and making millions..something's working!!
#71
Posted: 5/21/08 at 10:37am
"Isn't it good for a composer not to be instantly recognizable? A lot of composers fall into the trap of always sounding "like themselves" "
No. You missed the point.
No. You missed the point.
-Benjamin
--http://www.benjaminadgate.com/
--http://www.benjaminadgate.com/
#72
Posted: 5/21/08 at 10:38am
hmmm maybe I'm not sure what you meant...
Madame Morrible: "So you take the chicken, now it must be a white chicken. The corpse can be any color. And that is the spell for lost luggage!" - The Yellow Brick Road Not Taken
#73
Posted: 5/21/08 at 10:43am
That's what I meant by "you missed the point." Wow. Are message boards, like, advanced reading comprehension for you?
-Benjamin
--http://www.benjaminadgate.com/
--http://www.benjaminadgate.com/
#74
Posted: 5/21/08 at 10:46am
I'm working on a survey project, and I was wondering if you could tell me (in as analytical, and unemotional a way) what you think doesn't work about Stephen Schwartz's music/lyrics. Please no "he sucks!" comments, even if you think so, tell me why.
It's sort of hard to answer the question when it is already biased. The man wrote three hit Broadway shows and one of the most-produced musicals of all time. He has 3 Grammys and 3 Oscars and a total of 6 Tony noms. What makes you think his music/lyrics don't work?
Personally, I think a great deal of his music is instantly catchy and he's great at writing melodies that somehow stay with you, such as Meadowlark, Defying Gravity, or even With Is This Feeling. Corner of the Sky instantly became an audition standard and is still considered one of the most popular Broadway tenor solos.
But I think his lyrics often push the songs over the top. He can conjur up the most instantly recognizable imagery without getting too prentious or lofty. His lyrics are accessible and vivid, yet never get so complicated that you have to set aside the melody to concentrate on what is being said, which is why some composer lyricists are not fully appreciated unless you listen to their scores countless times to marry the music with the lyrics.
Take the lyrics of Chanson from The Baker's Wife:
"And since life is the
Sound of the sheep,
And the taste of the stew,
And the way that he looks
When he touches you.
Now your whole life is different.
Now your whole life is new."
Coupled with the classic Parisienne melody, I am practically moved to tears because I do recognize the simple truth in it, but also because the music itself conjurs up this imagery of strolling along the streets of Montmartre and taking in the sights, smells and sounds of something that is classically French. It is possibly my favorite Schwartz song because of its simplicity and its effectiveness.
And how about his lyrics to Colors of the Wind:
"How high will the sycamore grow?
If you cut it down, then you'll never know.
And you'll never hear the wolf cry to the blue corn moon.
For whether we are white or copper skinned,
We need to sing with all the voices of the mountains.
We need to paint with all the colors of the wind.
You can own the Earth and still
All you'll own is earth until
You can paint with all the colors of the wind."
While we may have been oversaturated with the song since the film originally premiered, the lyrics fill your mind with visions that are not too intricately described as to stifle our own imaginations, but vivid enough to let us empathize with the character. And his lyrics carefully keep each character in mind. If I were to listen to the song for the first time out of context, I would probably imagine it was a Native American perspective. It's quite genius.
And if you have any doubt as to whether Schwartz is able to amuse, look no further than Charmin's Lament, Two's Company or The Goldfarb Variations from the terribly underrated score of The Magic Show. What doesn't work? Very little, I would say.
"I'll bet you a million lira,
Honey you're about to hear a
'See you later' if you ever
Heard one.
Two's company.
And little lady you're the
Third one.
Wave goodbye.
It's a famous, if unwritten,
Law that when a man is smitten
How he treats his other friends
Is obscene.
Two's company.
And you are suddenly a
One-girl mob scene.
Ain't it rotten feelin' like a
Second fiddle,
A third nostril,
A fourth Musketeer?
Ain't it rotten feelin' like a
fifth wheel?
Well, your sixth sense ought to
Tell you, dear.
Before the hints get any louder,
Now it's time to take powder.
You're about as welcome as a
Skunk at a tea.
Two's company.
Which makes you nothing but a
C-R-O-W-D."
I think the people who have a real problem with his lyrics or rhymes really cannot produce enough to back up their claims. Does he have a few bobbles here and there? Yes, just like virtually every lyricist who ever wrote songs. And there are some lyricists I do believe to be quite dreadful. Has he ever recycled melodies? Very rarely, actually. Less than many other composers.
Like most commercially successful composers and/or lyricists, he is reviled because he is commercially successful. It is considered artistically respectful to tear down anyone who becomes a commercial success post-Golden Age. And the amount of hatred is usually directly proportionate to the financial success of the subject and the amount or work they produce. Should Shaiman and Wittman give us two or three more big hits, expect the tide to turn from the so-called "fans" of musical theatre. They will be the first to tear them apart simply for being successful. It happens constantly.
Has anyone noticed that the musical phrase for
"My beautiful young man and I" from Meadowlark
is the same as
"My little big red plane and I" from Captain Louis?
Sort of like Alan Menken and the final phrase in "Somewhere That's Green"/"Part of Your World"? Bernstein repeats a lot of musical phrases in both West Side Story and Candide. I joked around with Jerry Bock once during a rehearsal of a new musical he wrote called Danny and the Dragon about how one of the numbers reminded me of a tune from The Rothschilds and his wife turned to him and said, "So, you're stealing from yourself now!" Jerry laughed and told me how all composers do it, usually by accident, simply because the melodies are so deeply embedded in their own personal style.
It's sort of hard to answer the question when it is already biased. The man wrote three hit Broadway shows and one of the most-produced musicals of all time. He has 3 Grammys and 3 Oscars and a total of 6 Tony noms. What makes you think his music/lyrics don't work?
Personally, I think a great deal of his music is instantly catchy and he's great at writing melodies that somehow stay with you, such as Meadowlark, Defying Gravity, or even With Is This Feeling. Corner of the Sky instantly became an audition standard and is still considered one of the most popular Broadway tenor solos.
But I think his lyrics often push the songs over the top. He can conjur up the most instantly recognizable imagery without getting too prentious or lofty. His lyrics are accessible and vivid, yet never get so complicated that you have to set aside the melody to concentrate on what is being said, which is why some composer lyricists are not fully appreciated unless you listen to their scores countless times to marry the music with the lyrics.
Take the lyrics of Chanson from The Baker's Wife:
"And since life is the
Sound of the sheep,
And the taste of the stew,
And the way that he looks
When he touches you.
Now your whole life is different.
Now your whole life is new."
Coupled with the classic Parisienne melody, I am practically moved to tears because I do recognize the simple truth in it, but also because the music itself conjurs up this imagery of strolling along the streets of Montmartre and taking in the sights, smells and sounds of something that is classically French. It is possibly my favorite Schwartz song because of its simplicity and its effectiveness.
And how about his lyrics to Colors of the Wind:
"How high will the sycamore grow?
If you cut it down, then you'll never know.
And you'll never hear the wolf cry to the blue corn moon.
For whether we are white or copper skinned,
We need to sing with all the voices of the mountains.
We need to paint with all the colors of the wind.
You can own the Earth and still
All you'll own is earth until
You can paint with all the colors of the wind."
While we may have been oversaturated with the song since the film originally premiered, the lyrics fill your mind with visions that are not too intricately described as to stifle our own imaginations, but vivid enough to let us empathize with the character. And his lyrics carefully keep each character in mind. If I were to listen to the song for the first time out of context, I would probably imagine it was a Native American perspective. It's quite genius.
And if you have any doubt as to whether Schwartz is able to amuse, look no further than Charmin's Lament, Two's Company or The Goldfarb Variations from the terribly underrated score of The Magic Show. What doesn't work? Very little, I would say.
"I'll bet you a million lira,
Honey you're about to hear a
'See you later' if you ever
Heard one.
Two's company.
And little lady you're the
Third one.
Wave goodbye.
It's a famous, if unwritten,
Law that when a man is smitten
How he treats his other friends
Is obscene.
Two's company.
And you are suddenly a
One-girl mob scene.
Ain't it rotten feelin' like a
Second fiddle,
A third nostril,
A fourth Musketeer?
Ain't it rotten feelin' like a
fifth wheel?
Well, your sixth sense ought to
Tell you, dear.
Before the hints get any louder,
Now it's time to take powder.
You're about as welcome as a
Skunk at a tea.
Two's company.
Which makes you nothing but a
C-R-O-W-D."
I think the people who have a real problem with his lyrics or rhymes really cannot produce enough to back up their claims. Does he have a few bobbles here and there? Yes, just like virtually every lyricist who ever wrote songs. And there are some lyricists I do believe to be quite dreadful. Has he ever recycled melodies? Very rarely, actually. Less than many other composers.
Like most commercially successful composers and/or lyricists, he is reviled because he is commercially successful. It is considered artistically respectful to tear down anyone who becomes a commercial success post-Golden Age. And the amount of hatred is usually directly proportionate to the financial success of the subject and the amount or work they produce. Should Shaiman and Wittman give us two or three more big hits, expect the tide to turn from the so-called "fans" of musical theatre. They will be the first to tear them apart simply for being successful. It happens constantly.
Has anyone noticed that the musical phrase for
"My beautiful young man and I" from Meadowlark
is the same as
"My little big red plane and I" from Captain Louis?
Sort of like Alan Menken and the final phrase in "Somewhere That's Green"/"Part of Your World"? Bernstein repeats a lot of musical phrases in both West Side Story and Candide. I joked around with Jerry Bock once during a rehearsal of a new musical he wrote called Danny and the Dragon about how one of the numbers reminded me of a tune from The Rothschilds and his wife turned to him and said, "So, you're stealing from yourself now!" Jerry laughed and told me how all composers do it, usually by accident, simply because the melodies are so deeply embedded in their own personal style.
"What can you expect from a bunch of seitan worshippers?" - Reginald Tresilian
Updated On: 5/21/08 at 10:46 AM
#75
Posted: 5/21/08 at 10:51am
I think many people here will be suprised to hear his work in "Seance on a Wet Afternoon".
It's a departure for him and, in my opinion, quite beautiful.
The piece is still in the workshop stages but it's quite nice and has some stunning arias. When it is finally realized in a fully staged production I think folks will be taken aback. It gives him a chance to flex his less commercial side.
I admit that I was sceptical at first, but the music in the first act, at least, is pretty great.
It's a departure for him and, in my opinion, quite beautiful.
The piece is still in the workshop stages but it's quite nice and has some stunning arias. When it is finally realized in a fully staged production I think folks will be taken aback. It gives him a chance to flex his less commercial side.
I admit that I was sceptical at first, but the music in the first act, at least, is pretty great.
Tickets From $59
Tickets From $71
Tickets From $71
Tickets From $95