#26
Posted: 11/25/07 at 11:14am
I always assumed from their manner in A Little Priest that they did in fact eat the pies.
Sweeney & Lovett - Did They Eat the Pies? — Page 2
#27
Posted: 11/25/07 at 11:38am
It's an interesting question. I don't think they did. I always viewed Sweeney as being basically a good person up until he starts to get his revenge. Even after that, he's SO fixated on the judge, that I don't know that it would even occur to him to try the pies. Aside from that, I always saw him as seeing Mrs. Lovett as VERY secondary - just someone he can use to get what he wants. He could care less what happens below, so long as he doesn't find out. He doesn't care about the pie shop, so really would have no reason to try the pies. Mrs. Lovett, on the other hand, I could see trying them. She feigns a delicate nature, but we all know she's anything but delicate. She seems to relish in what they are doing (no pun intended), and my guess would be she wouldn't be able to help but give those pies a taste...
Hi, Shirley Temple Pudding.
#28
Posted: 11/25/07 at 11:48am
The entire song takes place before they've made any human pies. There is nothing in the text (or any production that I've ever seen) that would indicate that the entire song is not taking place in real time, all before they start making human pies. The song depicts the two of them joking about the kind of pies they can make.
Yes, in some productions, they actually do eat (or pretend eat) actual (or pretend) pies while they sing. But these are old pies Mrs. Lovett takes off her shelf.
Can anyone explain specifically what you are referring to that gives you the impression that time is moving forward in an accelerated way. And please don't say, "I've just always had that feeling." What in the text, or a production you've seen indicates that?
Yes, in some productions, they actually do eat (or pretend eat) actual (or pretend) pies while they sing. But these are old pies Mrs. Lovett takes off her shelf.
Can anyone explain specifically what you are referring to that gives you the impression that time is moving forward in an accelerated way. And please don't say, "I've just always had that feeling." What in the text, or a production you've seen indicates that?
Art has a double face, of expression and illusion.
#29
Posted: 11/25/07 at 11:52am
So you're saying Sweeeney would have just been happy knowing that Turpin was simply dead and not in Sweeney's digestive system.
Butters, go buy World of Warcraft, install it on your computer, and join the online sensation before we all murder you.
--Cartman: South Park
ATTENTION FANS: I will be played by James Barbour in the upcoming musical, "BroadwayWorld: The Musical."
#30
Posted: 11/25/07 at 11:58am
I also want to add that despite the fact that it isn't textually indicated, that doesn't mean that they didn't eat the pies. It just didn't happen during A Little Priest.
And while it isn't textually indicated that they ate them after that, it can be logically argued. Mrs Lovett may reasonably have tasted as she developed her recipe. And different arguments could be made as to their sitting down at some point and relishing a meal of their victims. But I tend to think that unlikely. Cannibalism is a whole different level of depravity outside of what we see. If the authors intended for us to speculate about that, I'd think they'd have supplied some elements in the text that would lead to or support that speculation. And I don't see that in the text.
And it doesn't mean that Burton won't direct A Little Priest that way and take us there.
And while it isn't textually indicated that they ate them after that, it can be logically argued. Mrs Lovett may reasonably have tasted as she developed her recipe. And different arguments could be made as to their sitting down at some point and relishing a meal of their victims. But I tend to think that unlikely. Cannibalism is a whole different level of depravity outside of what we see. If the authors intended for us to speculate about that, I'd think they'd have supplied some elements in the text that would lead to or support that speculation. And I don't see that in the text.
And it doesn't mean that Burton won't direct A Little Priest that way and take us there.
Art has a double face, of expression and illusion.
Updated On: 11/25/07 at 11:58 AM
#31
Posted: 11/25/07 at 12:32pm
"Can anyone explain specifically what you are referring to that gives you the impression that time is moving forward in an accelerated way. And please don't say, "I've just always had that feeling." What in the text, or a production you've seen indicates that?"
Perhaps it's the way the song progresses. Perhaps progesses is the wrong word. Perhaps people see Mrs. Lovett's line, "Here we are. Hot from the oven" as signaling the passage of time. She also has lines like "This may be a bit stringy" and Sweeney asks twice "What is that?" Maybe they see that as some kind of passage of time. I don't personally.
Perhaps it's the way the song progresses. Perhaps progesses is the wrong word. Perhaps people see Mrs. Lovett's line, "Here we are. Hot from the oven" as signaling the passage of time. She also has lines like "This may be a bit stringy" and Sweeney asks twice "What is that?" Maybe they see that as some kind of passage of time. I don't personally.
Butters, go buy World of Warcraft, install it on your computer, and join the online sensation before we all murder you.
--Cartman: South Park
ATTENTION FANS: I will be played by James Barbour in the upcoming musical, "BroadwayWorld: The Musical."
#32
Posted: 11/25/07 at 1:01pm
The entire song takes place before they've made any human pies. There is nothing in the text (or any production that I've ever seen) that would indicate that the entire song is not taking place in real time, all before they start making human pies. The song depicts the two of them joking about the kind of pies they can make.
Yes, in some productions, they actually do eat (or pretend eat) actual (or pretend) pies while they sing. But these are old pies Mrs. Lovett takes off her shelf.
- Exactly. Everyone should read this post. The human pies are NOT made yet during Priest. I don't buy any of the passing time BS happening during the song. If it's staged that way, then that's the director's choice. I didn't get that idea from the Doyle staging though. But nothing in the text supports that they are actually trying the human pies, or that time is passing.
Yes, in some productions, they actually do eat (or pretend eat) actual (or pretend) pies while they sing. But these are old pies Mrs. Lovett takes off her shelf.
- Exactly. Everyone should read this post. The human pies are NOT made yet during Priest. I don't buy any of the passing time BS happening during the song. If it's staged that way, then that's the director's choice. I didn't get that idea from the Doyle staging though. But nothing in the text supports that they are actually trying the human pies, or that time is passing.
Updated On: 11/25/07 at 01:01 PM
#33
Posted: 11/25/07 at 1:03pm
I see what you're saying, Brain. Those things could indicate passage of time. But they don't point to accelerated passage of time as opposed to real time. She also sings, "Save a lot of graves. Do a lot of relatives favors" half way through the song as if she's still trying to sell the idea to him. That doesn't seem like the kind of thing she'd still be rationalizing after more than ten victims/flavors.
Also just checked the libretto and the stage directions indicate, "She goes to the counter and comes back with an imaginary pie" the word "imaginary" is used in the stage directions throughout the remainder of the song.
Also just checked the libretto and the stage directions indicate, "She goes to the counter and comes back with an imaginary pie" the word "imaginary" is used in the stage directions throughout the remainder of the song.
Art has a double face, of expression and illusion.
Updated On: 11/25/07 at 01:03 PM
#34
Posted: 11/25/07 at 1:54pm
I never for a second thought time passed during Little Priest. There are lines in the song that indicate we're still at the same time: "Those above WILL serve those down below" is future tense - not present. My thoughts from my previous post would be after Little Priest and onward through the play.
Hi, Shirley Temple Pudding.
#35
Posted: 11/25/07 at 3:27pm
I think they might have tasted it ONCE. But I don't think that they ever ate the entire thing.
#36
Posted: 11/25/07 at 4:31pm
Though totally random, what a great & intelligent question. :)
#37
Posted: 11/25/07 at 5:12pm
I lean towards thinking it's all discussion, fantasy... planning... Not actualy eating or tasting.
They got off on the knowing what they were doing, not in consuming their vistims.
They got off on the knowing what they were doing, not in consuming their vistims.
"TO LOVE ANOTHER PERSON IS TO SEE THE FACE OF GOD"- LES MISERABLES---
"THERE'S A SPECIAL KIND OF PEOPLE KNOWN AS SHOW PEOPLE... WE'RE BORN EVERY NIGHT AT HALF HOUR CALL!"--- CURTAINS
#38
Posted: 11/25/07 at 5:23pm
As an English teacher/former English professor, I have to say that this thread makes me a little misty.
Viva la close reading!
Viva la close reading!
#39
Posted: 11/25/07 at 5:51pm
Erm, I don't think there's any way the song even suggests the passage of time. It clearly takes place in one. It COULD suggest the passage of time, I'm sure, and might in the movie, but having it take place over the course of time makes the song too literal and also makes it a commentary on itself, killing the joke (and dramatic arc). The idea of them killing people and tasting them based on social classification is appealing in a Salad Fingers Jeffrey Dahmer kind of way but kind of puts a different spin on things.
If they ever tasted the pies, it was on their own time!
If they ever tasted the pies, it was on their own time!
yr ronin,
joey
joey
#40
Posted: 11/25/07 at 6:48pm
I agree with the idea of depending on how lovett is played. I agree I dont think lansburys lovett would eat the pies however patti's lovett very well could of. Im auditioning for this show this summer and im gonna take this into alot of consideration actually.
<------ Me and my friends with patti Lupone at my friends afterparty for her concert with audra mcdonald during the summer of 2007.
"I am sorry but it is an unjust world and virtue is only triumphant in theatricle performances" The Mikado
"I am sorry but it is an unjust world and virtue is only triumphant in theatricle performances" The Mikado
#41
Posted: 11/25/07 at 7:01pm
I'm not so sure Lansbury's wouldn't have taken a taste as well. As I said above - Mrs. Lovett PRETENDS to delicacy (and no one did that better than Lansbury) but this whole THING was her idea! She positively revels in her success during God That's Good. Beneath the "motherly" surface of "Not While I'm Around," Mrs. Lovett is the real devil working her ways - and Lansbury's slyness showed that to the hilt. I don't believe for a SECOND that woman wouldn't have at least wanted to TRY the pies!
Hi, Shirley Temple Pudding.
#42
Posted: 11/25/07 at 10:06pm
I just don't see how we really can know? I wouldn't see her avoiding them as a moral issue. She had few. I think her idea endears her more to Sweeney. It covered up his crimes well and destroyed or made good use of what could be used as evidence against him. It allowed him to do all kind of wrong and created a suitable income for Mrs. Lovett.
Cannibalism wasn't unheard of just not spoken too much out loud. Since they weren't poisoning anyone, its diabolical indeed.
Just a gentle reminder that even when traveling, it's best to get a good look at the Kitchen you plan on getting your food from in advance.
Cannibalism wasn't unheard of just not spoken too much out loud. Since they weren't poisoning anyone, its diabolical indeed.
Just a gentle reminder that even when traveling, it's best to get a good look at the Kitchen you plan on getting your food from in advance.
#43
Posted: 11/25/07 at 10:15pm
I don't know if this helps but for me these lyrics make me believe they didn't...
"TODD:
The history of the world, my sweet --
LOVETT:
Oh, Mr. Todd,
Ooh, Mr. Todd,
What does it tell?
TODD:
Is who gets eaten, and who gets to eat!
LOVETT:
And, Mr. Todd,
Too, Mr. Todd,
Who gets to sell!"
mrs. lovett points out that she (and sweeney) have no intentions of eating them, but to merely sell them.
"TODD:
The history of the world, my sweet --
LOVETT:
Oh, Mr. Todd,
Ooh, Mr. Todd,
What does it tell?
TODD:
Is who gets eaten, and who gets to eat!
LOVETT:
And, Mr. Todd,
Too, Mr. Todd,
Who gets to sell!"
mrs. lovett points out that she (and sweeney) have no intentions of eating them, but to merely sell them.
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