Posted: 8/23/20 at 7:48am
Posted: 8/23/20 at 10:17am
I wonder how they will handle FREESTYLE LOVE SUPREME. I wouldn't be shocked to see it get in the musical category over THE LIGHTNING THIEF."
FLS is ineligible for Tonys, no nominators or voters were invited to see the show. They went the route of selling those tickets instead of giving them out for free.
Posted: 8/23/20 at 11:43am
imeldasturn said: "Well, Mary Beth Peil was nominated for Supporting actress in 1985, so unless you think of Anna as a featured role in The King and I it was pretty much lumped together"
Probably had something to do with her below the title billing. Also, had she been nominated, she would have been the only one. I REMEMBER READING AT THE TIME that the categories were eliminated because of lack of candidates.
Posted: 8/23/20 at 12:05pm
Islander_fan said: "I have this gut feeling that the Tony committee will meet again before any nominations come out. I feel this way because this is not a typical Tony Awards/season, and that things will have to be discussed again."
The original post of this thread contains this link, which confirms your gut feeling:
https://www.tonyawards.com/news/74th-annual-tony-awards-will-take-place-digitally-fall-2020/?utm_source=Tonys%20Website&utm_medium=Tonys%20FB&utm_campaign=Tonys%2020%20Fall%20Digital%20Announcement&fbclid=IwAR2SXZbFPLYpdXXNJZu3k3ruFCIFZ9ikSSquEcoEVHei_d5NoTxlzwgi1fE
"Final eligibility determinations will be made by the Tony Awards Administration Committee in the coming days."
The official purpose of this meeting is to make eligibility rulings about the last few eligible shows that have yet to be discussed: A Soldier's Play, Grand Horizons, and My Name is Lucy Barton. I do think there's a chance they might implement last-minute rule/category changes, but I think it's highly unlikely that they will change existing rulings about featured/leading placement.
Posted: 8/23/20 at 1:54pm
Posted: 8/23/20 at 2:24pm
imeldasturn said: "Well, Mary Beth Peil was nominated for Supporting actress in 1985, so unless you think of Anna as a featured role in The King and I it was pretty much lumped together"
''Probably had something to do with her below the title billing. Also, had she been nominated, she would have been the only one.''
If the Tonys had bumped Peil up to Leading, she didn't have to be the only one. Leilani Jones from ''Grind'' was billed above the title. And it wouldn't have been the first time the Tonys had only 2 contenders for Leading Actress in a Musical. (Instead, the Tonys bumped Jones down.)
By the way, the Tony rules do allow for the possibility of having a single nomination in a category, which is what happened at the 1995 Tonys. ''Sunset Boulevard'' was the sole nominee for Book and Score.
''Single Nomination in a Category. If the Tony Awards Nominating Committee has determined that there is only one nominee in a category listed in Paragraph 4(a) above, such category shall be submitted to the Tony Voters which may, by the affirmative vote of sixty (60%) percent of the total ballots cast, grant an Award in that category.''
Updated On: 8/23/20 at 02:24 PM
Posted: 8/23/20 at 4:24pm
Hello, all. Haven't posted here in a long time, but quick clarification about 1985 from some googling:
Leilani Jones (Grind) was the only eligible performance in Leading Actress (Musical). Mary Beth Peil (The King and I) was Featured because of her billing. The Tony Awards nominating committee announced before nominations that they were moving Leilani Jones to Featured and eliminating the Leading Actress category for the year. There's a piece in the NY Times with Hal Prince being upset by what he worried may impact Jones's chances at being nominated/winning. In the end, she won Featured Actress anyway.
On the day of the nominations announcement in 1985, there was controversy because even with a number of eligible performances in Leading Actor (Musical) and Choreography, the committee decided to eliminate those categories as well, saying there were "no excellent performances" in the categories. In the NY Times, a member of the committee said, "If the Tonys are to reward excellence, then we must do just that.
Interestingly, the Tonys admin committee declined to move the three above-the-title male actors in Grind (Ben Vereen, Stubby Kaye, Timothy Nolen) to Featured as they had with Leilani Jones. After eliminating the Leading category, Vereen, Kaye, and Nolen were effectively ineligible for any nomination.
Hope this clears all that up!
Posted: 8/23/20 at 4:37pm
rbfost said: "the committee decided to eliminate those categories as well, sayingthere were "no excellent performances" in the categories. In the NY Times, a member of the committee said, "If the Tonysare to reward excellence, then we must do just that.
This is fascinating to me, and I kinda wish that awards bodies would still do this. Why should the Tonys HAVE to nominate certain shows or actors just because they're the ones in the category? In a normal year, the Tony voters/nominators have the option to exclude shows/performances they don't like, simply by choosing not to vote for them. Why should they be denied that option in a year like this? Why should they have to nominate/award something they don't like?
There was a similar controversy not too long ago with the Drama Desks. They decided to eliminate the Best Book category in the 2015/2016 season because they didn't feel that there was any book worth awarding. Public backlash ensued, and they were pressured into adding the category back in. There were 3 shows nominated (Daddy Long Legs, First Daughter Suite, and Waitress), with the winner being Daddy Long Legs.
How do you think those book writers felt knowing that their nominations/awards were the direct result of entitled complaining, and not the result of people actually liking their work?
Posted: 8/23/20 at 6:10pm
Giving out awards is not an objective science. It's a judgment call. Due to our varying tastes, we don't all necessarily agree on what ''excellence'' is. In 1985, I guess the Tonys judged Leilani Jones not ''excellent'' enough for a Leading nomination, but ''excellent'' enough for a Featured nomination, which she won. (She also won the Drama Desk that season.) I saw ''Grind'' and enjoyed its wonderful cast. . To me, the above-the-title men, which included Tony winner Ben Vereen, got screwed by the Tonys. They should've been ruled eligible for Featured. I remember being very moved by Timothy Nolen singing ''Katie, My Love.'' (For the record, the Drama Desks nominated Nolen for Featured Actor.)
I really take issue with the snarky quote from the Tony committee member: ''If the Tonys are to reward excellence, then we must just do that.'' If that person thinks that the Tonys have only ever rewarded excellence, I have a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn. I can think of equally excellent performances that were never nominated, as well as arguably less-than-excellent ones that were. Again, it's so subjective.
Updated On: 8/23/20 at 06:10 PM
Posted: 8/23/20 at 6:32pm
Wayman_Wong said: "Giving out awards is not an objective science. It's a judgment call.Due to our varying tastes, we don't all necessarily agree on what ''excellence'' is.
Nobody is claiming otherwise. In fact, that's kind of my point. The Tony voters should have a right to decide what THEY think "excellence" is. And not be pressured into nominating something by default, regardless of their opinions.
Regarding 1985, Leilani Jones, I guess, was not judged ''excellent'' enough for a Leading nomination, but ''excellent'' enough for a Featured nomination, which she won. (She also won the Drama Desk that season.)
I may be wrong, but that's not how I understood it. It seemed to me that the comment about "excellence" referred solely to Leading Actor category, and whether that category was warranted that year - not referring to the Featured vs. Leading Actress placements.
I saw ''Grind'' and enjoyed its wonderful cast. . To me, the above-the-title men, which included Tony winner Ben Vereen, got screwed by the Tonys. They should've at least been ruled eligible for Featured. I remember being very moved by Timothy Nolen singing ''Katie, My Love.'' (And for the record, the Drama Desks nominated Nolen for Featured Actor.)"
This seems to contradict your initial statement about subjectivity. Why should those above-the-title men have been made eligible if the Tony Committee subjectivity decided that they didn't earn it? You are, of course, welcome to your opinions, but the Tony Voters should be allowed theirs as well, and they should be allowed to make decisions according to those opinions.
I really take issue with the snarky quote from the Tony committee member: ''If the Tonys are to reward excellence, then we must just do that.'' If that person thinks that the Tonys have only ever rewarded excellence, I have a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn. I can think of equally excellent performances thatwere never nominated, as well as arguably less-than-excellent ones thatwere.Again, it's so subjective."
Fair point. I'll grant you that the phrasing of their comment does wrongfully imply that they have a specially ordained knowledge of what "excellence" is. But I think the sentiment of the comment is in line what the Tony Awards are SUPPOSED to do. A better phrasing might have been "Our goal is to award what we think is excellent," but I think that is a perfectly valid rationale behind their choice, for the reasons I gave above.
As for the Tonys being influenced by other biases that don't have to do with "excellence" - another fair point. I'm sure factors like popularity, marketability, and conflicts of interest run rampant among Tony Voters' ballots. But is that a reason to scoff at them when they actually attempt to act with integrity by choosing not to award work that they don't deem worthy of an award? Is it wrong for them to attempt to stay true to their mission in some ways, just because they fail to do so in other ways?
Posted: 8/23/20 at 7:28pm
To give some clarity to the question of whether Leilani Jones's performance was worthy of Leading Actress vs. the other men in her show, the Leading Actress (Musical) announcement was made and the Lead Actor (Musical) and Choreography announcement was made four days later, two separate decisions. This was a unanimous vote by the then 11-member nominating committee. In the same article with the previous quote from a committee member, he also says, "The category is for 'Outstanding Performance by a Leading Actor in a Musical' and the nominators immediately jumped on the fact that there wasn't one."
Also, look to 1994 for another instance of a nominating committee not wanting to nominate whatever was eligible. There was a delay in the nominations announcement that year because the committee did not want to nominate The Best Little Whorehouse Goes Public for Score or Book, but needed to fill out the category to four nominees because of the rules at the time. The Tony admins allowed the snub for score, leaving three nominees (Beauty and the Beast, Cyrano, and the winner, Passion), but would not allow Best Book to have less than four nominees, based on the eligible productions. This is how the sung-through Rodgers and Hammerstein revue, A Grand Night for Singing received a nomination for Walter Bobbie's book, alongside Beauty and the Beast, Cyrano, and the winner, Passion.
Updated On: 8/23/20 at 07:28 PM
Posted: 8/23/20 at 8:10pm
To tell you where I'm coming from, I'm a longtime former Drama Desk voter and Outer Critics Circle voter. And I've served my time on nominating and eligibility committees elsewhere.
Of course, ''The Tony voters should have a right to decide what THEY think "excellence" is.'' But if I disagree with their rulings or nominations, I also have every right to dispute or scoff at them.
Updated On: 8/23/20 at 08:10 PM
Posted: 8/23/20 at 8:16pm
rbfost said: "Hello, all. Haven't posted here in a long time, but quick clarification about 1985 from some googling:
Leilani Jones (Grind) was the only eligible performance in Leading Actress (Musical). Mary Beth Peil (The King and I) was Featured because of her billing. The Tony Awards nominating committee announced before nominations that they were moving Leilani Jones to Featured and eliminating the Leading Actress category for the year. There's a piece in the NY Times with Hal Prince being upset by what he worried may impact Jones's chances at being nominated/winning. In the end, she won Featured Actress anyway.
On the day of the nominations announcement in 1985, there was controversybecause even with a number of eligible performances in Leading Actor (Musical) and Choreography, the committee decided to eliminate those categories as well, sayingthere were "no excellent performances" in the categories. In the NY Times, a member of the committee said, "If the Tonysare to reward excellence, then we must do just that.
Interestingly, the Tonys admin committee declined to move the three above-the-title male actors in Grind (Ben Vereen, Stubby Kaye, Timothy Nolen) to Featured as they had with Leilani Jones. After eliminating the Leading category, Vereen, Kaye, and Nolen were effectively ineligible for any nomination.
Hope this clears all that up!"
The irony of course is that Leilani Jones' role was supporting one, no ifs-ands-or-buts. IMO Stubby Kaye gave the best performance in the show, and Jones was fine -- she received solid reviews -- but in any other year she would not have won for her performance in Grind. It was a lethargic show in which Nolen essentially had nothing to do but sing one depressing song after another.
The set, on the other hand, was spectacular.
Posted: 8/23/20 at 9:21pm
Wayman_Wong said: "Of course, ''The Tony voters should have a right to decide what THEY think "excellence" is.'' But if I disagree with their rulings or nominations, I also have every right to dispute or scoff at them."
Again, no one is saying otherwise. You have a right to disagree with their logic, and I have a right to make an argument against your logic for disagreeing with their logic. That's the beauty of art, and message boards discussing art!
Posted: 8/24/20 at 4:14am
This whole thing feels unsurprisingly odd. I'll toss out a few random comments:
- The only show of the truncated season I ended up seeing was Frankie and Johnny. The performances were good, the play didn't really work for me. I suspect it gets passed over, as there is a fair amount of legitimate competition among the plays.
- Ordinarily, I would say the Best Play winner gets a boost on tour. But that may not matter this time because who knows when plays can be seen. In San Francisco, The Lehman Trilogy is already highlighted for its upcoming season whenever that happens. How many people will care whether it wins a Tony Award in the middle of the pandemic? And regardless of whether it wins a Tony, I'm certainly curious about Slave Play.
- West Side Story's long preview period ended up working against it. The revival was certainly divisive, but Powell received a fair amount of praise. I doubt he wins whenever there's a new set of musicals, assuming the show reopens.
- I guess this feels unsatisfactory because it neither works as a promotion for Broadway nor as a fair chance for shows to be nominated. These efforts to highlight Broadway in performances we can watch at home is a lot more intriguing than a neither-fish-nor-fowl awards ceremony. It's OK for the plays, but the musical competition is a bit silly. And if Danny Burstein is going to win after all his nominations, what a strange and bittersweet victory it will be.
Posted: 8/24/20 at 10:04am
Theatermania is reporting that the cutoff date is February 19. That means the following shows will not be eligible: West Side Story (opened February 20), Girl From the North Country (opened March 6), Six (in previews, never officially opened), The Minutes (in previews, never officially opened), Hangmen (in previews, never officially opened), Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? (in previews, never officially opened).
https://www.theatermania.com/broadway/news/handicapping-the-tonys-a-guide-to-the-shows_91336.html
Posted: 8/24/20 at 12:28pm
I for one am thrilled. I can't imagine it'll be no more than award presentations and montages of the season a la the PBS hour back in the day, along with special virtual solo numbers and special guests.
The fact they're doing this now is a truly a celebration of the season, not a traditional showcase/commercial for Broadway. (I mean, it's going to be digital, so it'll likely be for those looking for it.) But it gives some sort of closure to the season for the show involved, especially since we may not end up resuming for another year from now, and gives Broadway folks a mood boost we haven't had since March.
And politically, it may be a chance to have performers remind the government about the aid they aren't getting!
Posted: 8/24/20 at 1:53pm
LarryD2 said: "Theatermania is reporting that the cutoff date is February 19. That means the following shows will not be eligible: West Side Story (opened February 20), Girl From the North Country (opened March 6), Six (in previews, never officially opened), The Minutes (in previews, never officially opened), Hangmen (in previews, never officially opened), Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? (in previews, never officially opened).
https://www.theatermania.com/broadway/news/handicapping-the-tonys-a-guide-to-the-shows_91336.html"
Thank you so much for this, I look forward to reading about the acting categories tomorrow.
Posted: 8/24/20 at 5:58pm
Posted: 8/24/20 at 6:01pm
herewegoabc said: "Count me in on the Jagged Little Pill love. I'm thankful I got to see it twice before the shutdown. Elizabeth Stanley was the standout for me, but I also loved Celia Rose Gooding's performance. I know Patten is the likely winner from that show, but I would love to see Gooding get some recognition. And though I loved Stanley's performance, I'd be thrilled to see Adrienne Warren get her Tony.
On the play side, I'm just hoping for some Michael Urie recognition. I loved his performance in Grand Herizons. The standout in a group of topnotch performances. "
Gooding was DREADFUL! She cannot act at all.
Posted: 8/24/20 at 6:13pm
''Only 2 actors are eligible for Leading Actor in a Musical? What a woeful situation if that’s true.''
Too bad, ''Tina'' and ''Jagged Little Pill'' hadn't petitioned earlier to bump Daniel J. Watts and Sean Allan Krill to Leading. Obviously, if the season hadn't been cut short, Rob McClure (''Mrs. Doubtfire'' ) and Isaac Powell (''West Side Story'' ) would've been among the contenders.
That said, there have been at least 2 years when only 2 nominees competed for Leading Actress in a Musical: 1959 - Miyoshi Umeki (''Flower Drum Song'' ) and Gwen Verdon (''Redhead'' ); 1995: Glenn Close (''Sunset Boulevard'' ) and Rebecca Luker (''Show Boat'' ).
Updated On: 8/24/20 at 06:13 PM
Posted: 8/24/20 at 7:24pm
This will be the perfect "Millennial" Tony Awards. In "Millenniall" high school sports there were no winners or losers - everybody got a participation award. Well now the Tony Awards, especially with musicals, every show that opened gets a nomination .... which basically makes the nomination and award Meaningless.
Posted: 8/24/20 at 7:59pm
George in DC said: "This will be the perfect "Millennial" Tony Awards. In "Millenniall" high school sports there were no winners or losers - everybody got a participation award."
What a nasty and completely unnecessary thing to say about Millennials.
Which generation was it that was GIVING OUT the participation awards? Don't blame the Millennials just because our parents thought we were soft and stupid. Whenever my class received "participation awards" in school, we always groaned in unison, because we knew even as children that it was BS.
And BTW, participation trophies haven't made Milennials entitled, it has made us distrusting and insecure, and unwilling to internalize praise.
It would have been easy for you to make your point without criticizing an entire generation out of the blue. Not sure why you felt the need to be nasty for no reason.
Updated On: 8/24/20 at 07:59 PM
Posted: 8/24/20 at 8:07pm
It was during the Millennial generation that the "participation trophy" became popular. That's all I was saying. If you read something else into it, it wasn't intended.
Posted: 8/24/20 at 8:20pm
George in DC said: "It was during the Millennial generation that the "participation trophy" became popular. That's all I was saying. If you read something else into it, it wasn't intended."
Apologies if that's really all you were saying, but if so, I would still urge you to find other language to express that. The "participation trophy" argument has become a frequent mainstay for older generations attempting to paint Millennials as entitled and lazy. Your post appeared to be a prime example of this. If you were referring to the Millennial generation as a period of time, and not to the group of people, that wasn't clear. And regardless, the context in which you used the term perpetuates the stereotypes, and continues the trend of associating that negative practice with the Millennials as a group of people, despite the fact that we weren't even the ones engaging in that practice.
