The IN THE HEIGHTS Film Adaptation Thread- Page 42

Posted: 6/20/21 at 7:59pm

Nocredits said: "That's all beautifuland legit for sure, and Im glad these dancer are getting their shine. And the work is GOOD no doubt.But atthe end of the day the head of anentire department was a white man, meaning the buck stopped with him. Im not saying it should not have been white person to choreograph this film, I'm saying that way to many(mainly all) of the creative department heads were white leadership and white creative control.To me that is absolutely ridiculous for a movie about a specific culture of people."

At some point people stopped judging art by its quality, and started judging it by the circumstances surrounding its creation. It's so lazy. But for dumb people, it's the easiest way to criticize something. Much easier than engaging with it on an artistic level. Why be thoughtful about a piece of art when you can just tick through the ethnicities of the creators and judge it without even watching it at all?

Updated On: 6/20/21 at 07:59 PM

[BWNUT]

Posted: 6/20/21 at 8:08pm

Most ads I’ve seen and heard emphasized: ITH from the writer of Hamilton and the director of Crazy Rich Asians. I think that’s one of the problems. Marketing. Miranda and Chu have each one hit on their hands. They’re using their names like they have the name recognition of SPIELBERG and DISNEY. Ego can sometimes get in the way of a good marketing campaign.

Updated On: 6/20/21 at 08:08 PM

[Nocredits]

Posted: 6/20/21 at 8:44pm

ctorres23 said: "Nocredits said: "That's all beautifuland legit for sure, and Im glad these dancer are getting their shine. And the work is GOOD no doubt.But atthe end of the day the head of anentire department was a white man, meaning the buck stopped with him. Im not saying it should not have been white person to choreograph this film, I'm saying that way to many(mainly all) of the creative department heads were white leadership and white creative control.To me that is absolutely ridiculous for a movie about a specific culture of people."

At some point people stopped judging art by its quality, and started judging it by the circumstances surrounding its creation. It's so lazy. But for dumb people, it's the easiest way to criticize something. Much easier than engaging with it on an artistic level. Why be thoughtful about a piece of art when you can just tick through the ethnicities of the creators and judge it without even watching it at all?"

So because I'm stating facts about the lack on inclusion that went into the making of this movie makes me dumb? Interesting. What you are saying is borderline ignorant. Not once in anything that I said, was a criticism of the movie itself. I am more than capable of engaging in that conversation if you want. All I was stating was the bigger picture of who has the monopoly of what gets made and the hypocrisy that follows it. So miss me with calling my arguments lazy and what not when you yourself had nothing to add of criticism of the piece itself... just an ignorant take on how latino centric stories will not make money in Hollywood. All you are doing is projecting that you are not willing or capable to engage in this kind of broader critic of "art by its quality". Which is fine...but don't then start name calling with someone you disagree with. Trust me; there is nothing 'easy' about constantly seeing lack of representation in a so called progressive world. 

Posted: 6/20/21 at 9:35pm

Nocredits said: "Trust me; there is nothing 'easy' about constantly seeing lack of representation in a so called progressive world."

You're right, it actually does look like quite a challenge to dig through the cast and crew in order to eke out claims of lack of representation. Can't use the director, writers, or stars, so we have to get real into the weeds and talk about the cinematographer and choreographer.

This is the classic example of "perfect is the enemy of good". This is a remarkably personal story about a group of people that rarely if ever get their story told at this scale. And instead of celebrating that fact, you're in here being like, "well, the cinematographer is a white lady, so..."

Don't worry. The studio execs have received the message. Not only is America, apparently, not receptive to this type of story, the execs who greenlit this don't even have the "attaboys" to fall back on for having been bold enough to produce a big-budget story about non-white folks. Instead these execs have $0 of profit, a public apology from the Pulitzer-prize winning writer, and a bunch of Twitter kids who didn't buy tickets but instead are trolling through IMDB trying to figure out the ancestry of the creative leads in order to further drag it.

So, you're welcome to tell us more about the results of your background checks on the creative leads. But if your goal is genuinely to have more Latino representation behind the camera on the next big-budget Latino-centric film - don't sweat it, because that film will never exist.

[Wayman_Wong]

Posted: 6/20/21 at 11:09pm

In media interviews, Jon M. Chu has spoken passionately about ''In the Heights'' and how he saw it onstage and instantly identified with Usnavi and growing up with an extended family of relatives. And for the record, the man who hired Chu to direct the big-screen adaptation was Lin-Manuel Miranda. Miranda told the L.A. Times: ''Honestly, of all the directors we talked to, Latino and non-Latino, he had the lived experience that was closest to the characters.'' Plus, ''Jon knew how to shoot the sh*t out of a dance number.''

Over a decade ago, Universal almost made ''In the Heights.'' Kenny Ortega was mentioned as the director. But Universal would not greenlight a $37 million budget unless the movie had a bankable Latino star, reportedly like Jennifer Lopez or Shakira. It did not want to bet on unknown actors. Years later, the directing duties fell to Chu, whose ''Crazy Rich Asians'' became a surprise box office hit ($26 million in the U.S. on its opening weekend). Chu made ''Asians'' a blockbuster with unknown actors and believed ''In the Heights'' could do the same for its Latino talent. Hindsight's 20-20. Who knows how ''In the Heights,'' directed by Ortega and starring Lopez, might've done? But the reality is that Miranda chose Chu and loves the Warner Bros. movie they made. It's been a critical success: 96% raves at Rotten Tomatoes. Why more filmgoers aren't flocking to see it is another issue and probably complicated by various factors: not everyone loves musicals, lack of big stars, COVID fears, HBO Max, etc.

It's silly to blame Miranda and Chu's ''egos'' for ''getting in the way of a good marketing campaign.'' ''In the Heights' '' biggest selling points ARE that it comes from Miranda, who created the Tony-winning musical and pop-culture phenomena that is ''Hamilton,'' and Chu, who directed ''Crazy Rich Asians,'' which grossed $238 million worldwide. How ELSE would you market it?

Updated On: 6/20/21 at 11:09 PM

[theatreguy12]

Posted: 6/21/21 at 1:28am

To those questioning the representation behind the scenes, is there evidence that the creatives actually saw some large number of artists who fit these representative expectations, but purposely did not hire them?  

Or is it simply possible that maybe members of this representative group just didn't apply in the first place?

If it's the former, then yes, I can see apologies being in order. If it's the latter it becomes a moot point.  If they're not applying for the job in the first place, I can't see the creatives being expected to just go out on the street and pull in people just to be representational.  

 

I have a friend who has worked in Hollywood for years and she has said that cries for equal representation have been there for quite some time.  But if you don't have people applying for these jobs who meet those representational requirements in the first place, what are they supposed to do?

[Fan123]

Posted: 6/21/21 at 3:34am

I guess on the positive side in terms of upcoming Latinx representation in movie musicals, there is also 'West Side Story' and the Camila Cabello 'Cinderella'. Not a huge number of films, and undoubtedly neither will score perfectly with everybody when it comes to representation, but together with 'In The Heights' these form a decent proportion of the movie musicals coming out this year.

My own armchair analysis/prediction is that both WSS and Cinderella will do better business than ITH (well, proportionately better in the case of Cinderella perhaps, given its limited release situation), partly because both properties are instantly recognisable as having good plots. I think that's one of the keys thing that ITH is missing for those who don't know it. (And also for some of us who do know it, if I'm being honest...)

[Wayman_Wong]

Posted: 6/21/21 at 4:54am

Trish2, thanks for acknowledging the work of Christopher Scott and his diverse team of associate choreographers, which included Eddie Torres Jr. and many others. Scott says: ''Assembling this team of choreographers is one of my proudest moments  ... You need people who know where everything comes from.'' Here's a video that shows how they were dedicated to telling the stories in ''In the Heights'' and representing various and authentic Latin dance styles.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNbvu5gIVfY

Updated On: 6/21/21 at 04:54 AM

[Nocredits]

Posted: 6/21/21 at 10:42am

theatreguy12 said: "To those questioning the representation behind the scenes, is there evidence that the creatives actually saw some large number of artists who fit theserepresentativeexpectations, but purposely did not hire them?

Or is it simply possiblethat maybe members of this representative groupjust didn't applyin the first place?

If it's the former, then yes, I can see apologies being in order. Ifit's the latter it becomes a moot point. If they're not applying for the job in the first place, I can't see the creatives being expected tojust go out on the street and pull inpeople just to be representational.



I have a friend who has worked in Hollywood for years and she has said that cries for equal representation have beenthere for quite some time. But if you don't have people applying for these jobs who meet those representational requirements in the first place, what are they supposed to do?"

 

The film industry is the ULTIMATE who you know industry. Meaning folks really don't "apply" of jobs when it comes to working on a movie, especially for creative department heads on big ones like ITH . Producers and UPMs know who they want and seek them out. There was NO application process for any of the creative heads job for this movie. Trust: if a Job posting went out saying: "seeking cinematographer for in the heights" you bet there would have been 96,000+  applications from folks of color, but it does not work that way. It's really a "I'm going to hire my buddy" type of business(in the case of ITH although talented, lot's of those buddies were white people). Even on a big movie like this, the below the line crew members don't even apply for their positions, it's offered and then that's it. Remember film industry is HEAVILY unionized all around. On a related not;  when it comes to lack of people of color applying to job positions in the film industry (if it even rarely happens), yes it can be very low turnout, but it is not due to lack of interest it's due to lack of want from the folks doing the hiring. The film industry is a very closed net group of people(you see a lot of the same people in departments always working together) it is not very welcoming to outsiders of any kind. 

 

Posted: 6/21/21 at 10:53am

Nocredits said: "Trust: if a Job posting went out saying: "seeking cinematographer for in the heights" you bet there would have been 96,000+applications from folks of color, but it does not work that way. It's really a "I'm going to hire my buddy" type of business(in the case of ITH although talented, lot's of those buddies were white people)."

The absolute irony of using "cinematographer" here is that even that role actually was filled with a diverse candidate - a woman. Cinematography has been male-dominated for a long time, to the point that the first female Oscar winner was only three years ago.

But, oh wait, it's a white woman, so that's not good enough. Better to have a Latino man, I guess.

[everythingtaboo]

Posted: 6/21/21 at 11:40am

The second weekend box office drop-off is just tragic at this point. As per Variety:

"Elsewhere on box office charts, “In the Heights,” director Jon M. Chu’s adaptation of Lin-Manuel Miranda’s hit Broadway musical, failed to sustain crowds in its second weekend of release. The film fell to the No. 6 spot with $4.3 million in revenues from 3,509 theaters, a brutal 62% decline from its inaugural outing. “In the Heights,” which is currently playing on HBO Max, has amassed $19.8 million on the big screen to date. It hasn’t fared much better with international audiences. The movie has been released in 31 overseas markets and foreign ticket sales have barely surpassed $2.1 million. At this rate, despite glowing reviews, the $55 million-budgeted movie will struggle to climb out of the red."

[Nocredits]

Posted: 6/21/21 at 11:42am

ctorres23 said: "Nocredits said: "Trust: if a Job posting went out saying: "seeking cinematographer for in the heights" you bet there would have been 96,000+applications from folks of color, but it does not work that way. It's really a "I'm going to hire my buddy" type of business(in the case of ITH although talented, lot's of those buddies were white people)."

The absolute irony of using "cinematographer" here is that even that role actually was filled with a diverse candidate -a woman.Cinematography has been male-dominated for a long time, to the point that the first female Oscar winner was only three years ago.

But, oh wait, it's awhitewoman, so that's not good enough. Better to have a Latino man, I guess."

 

Lets keep this conversation practical instead of using innuendos on what is being discussed here. A: I only used cinematographer as an example to reply to the question about an application process for these jobs. As I pointed out  in my original post; I could have used any creative position department heads for this film because the vast majority of them were all white. B: "Better to have a Latino man, I guess"  this is how your argument falls apart based on you lack of understanding of what I am saying. I never said these positions should have been a latino man I said latino. Period. Man, women or non binary. You assuming I meant man says a lot more about your misinterpretation of the meaning of progression especially in an artistic formant. I also did not say all these positions should have been latino, I pointed out that NONE of them were (outside of the original creators) which is a shame for a movie like this. 

 

Updated On: 6/21/21 at 11:42 AM

Posted: 6/21/21 at 12:12pm

Nocredits said: "I never said these positions should have been a latinoman I said latino. Period. Man, women or non binary. You assuming I meant man says a lot more about your misinterpretation of the meaning ofprogression especially in an artistic formant."

I didn't assume you meant man, I correctly identified that the ethnicity of the cinematographer was more important to you than the gender. You just confirmed that's true - you don't care if the cinematographer is "man, woman, or non binary". So the obvious implication is that you would be more willing to accept a Latino male cinematographer than what we actually got, which was a white female.

It's fine for you to champion one demographic over another, just be honest with yourself that you'd willingly suppress female diversity if it meant that Latinos had more representation behind the camera.

Nocredits said: "which is a shame for a movie like this."

Once again, "perfect is the enemy of good". When you say "a movie like this", you mean a movie about Latino culture with Latino stars, written by someone with Latino heritage. Movies like this do not get made with any regularity. Some studio executive took the risk to greenlight this with a big budget and summer release in 3000+ theaters, and instead of shouting from the rooftops about this massive progress for Latino culture in mainstream entertainment, you are literally in here complaining about the cinematographer, choreographer and other creative's ethnicities.

This kind of response will chill any future studio exec from greenlighting a movie like this. The studio execs will say to themselves, "I get to make $0 and I can have people yell at me because the costume designer is white? No thanks, let's make Deadpool 12 instead."

everythingtaboo said: "The second weekend box office drop-off is just tragic at this point."

When all is said and done, In the Heights is going to make less money than Cats. And honestly, we all deserve this outcome. Cats was a bad movie, but no one had to apologize for it.

Updated On: 6/21/21 at 12:12 PM

[Nocredits]

Posted: 6/21/21 at 12:45pm

"you'd willingly suppress female diversity if it meant that Latinos had more representation behind the camera"

This is the perfect example of why critical race theory needs to be taught in schools. It's sad that I have to repeat myself...but like I said: Latino not gender. This. Is. A. Movie. About. Latinos. Let the folks who work on it reflect that. Let them be able to contribute to tell their story.  But for you, when it comes to real representation you don't equate to the word "Suppression". You realize that false ideology is the one that supremacist use to make their arguments? If the thought of expanding a rainbow correlation to tell the story of non white people sounds like suppression to you, then you don't understand the meaning of equality. I'll state for you this way to make it clear and odvious...I would have sought  a non male latino cinematographer for the job myself if the goal was not to hire a male for the job (which is a great thing to do). So that's where I stand on it. But still you negate my initlal point because you can't handle the discussion. I never made a gripe about specific crew members being white...I was making the point that the overwhelming majority of them were white. So fine let's keep on board a white women as the head of the camera department...then how come we can't expand that progressive native when it comes to other roles within the camera department?

Once again, "perfect is the enemy of good". When you say "a movie like this", you mean a movie about Latino culture with Latino stars, written by someone with Latino heritage. Movies like this do not get made with any regularity. Some studio executive took the risk to greenlight this with a big budget and summer release in 3000+ theaters, and instead of shouting from the rooftops about this massive progress for Latino culture in mainstream entertainment, you are literally in here complaining about the cinematographer, choreographer and other creative's ethnicities.

No one is looking for perfect. Folks are just looking for their shot to do good work. You're telling on yourself because you can't keep your argument straight at all. You're the one propagandizing the news about how this movie is a flop and studio execs will not take the risk on this type of things for years to come and blah blah blah...but yet, to make your shaky point to try and prove me wrong, you say this film is "massive progress for the Latino culture and mainstream entertainment". So which is it? You're making the argument to folks of color that we should just shut up and be grateful for what we get...

[LizzieCurry]

Posted: 6/21/21 at 12:47pm

Nocredits said: "No one is looking for perfect. Folks are just looking for their shot to do good work.You're telling onyourselfbecause you can't keep your argument straight at all. You're the one propagandizing the news about how this movie is a flop and studio execs will not take the risk on this type of things for years to come and blah blah blah...but yet, tomake yourshaky point to try and prove me wrong, you say this film is "massive progress for the Latino culture and mainstream entertainment". So which is it? You're making the argument to folks of color that we should just shut up and be grateful for what we get..."

Just preserving this for future generations. A+

Posted: 6/21/21 at 1:16pm

Nocredits said: "So which is it? You're making the argument to folks of color that we should just shut up and be grateful for what we get..."

I'll make my argument much shorter: taking a stand on this particular movie is counterproductive to your ultimate goal. I think we both want the same thing, in an abstract sense, but the way you're doing it, by calling out this movie and making it a point of contention, is hurting your goal more than helping it.

I'm not saying the goal itself isn't noble, I am just annoyed by your methods. I think you, and everyone who takes a similar stand to the one you're taking on this movie, is making the goals that I personally want harder to achieve.

You and I both want more diversity behind the camera. A good way to do that would for this movie to have been a wild success, both in terms of money and social acceptance. I wanted it to be hailed as a pinnacle of diversity. That would a) mean more Latino-centric films get produced, b) more Latinos become interested in filmmaking, c) a more general openness in the film industry toward Latinos as a whole.

All of those things would lead to more Latinos behind the camera as the years go on.

A bad way to do it would be: calling out this film for lack of diversity. By doing that, it turns this film, and the entire genre, into the third-rail for studio executives. They will not want to go anywhere near it, which will decidedly not help Latinos get a foot in the door.

You seem overly concerned about whether you are right, and I am concerned with whether you are helping. I think you are both right, and also not helping at all.

[Nocredits]

Posted: 6/21/21 at 2:58pm

I'll make my argument much shorter: taking a stand onthis particular movieis counterproductive to your ultimate goal. I think we both want the same thing, in an abstract sense, but the way you're doing it, by calling out this movie and making it a point of contention, is hurting your goal more than helping it.

Once again; that is a backwards way of thinking. The pressure and responsibility of achieving a meritocracy of fairness and diversity in the arts are not on the people who are the very ones being left out to dry. That responsibility is on the powers that be! It's not my responsibility to make someone change their ways...they got to do the work themselves. That's like saying: 'poor people will never make a decent living if they keep calling out income inequality'.  My burden, (outside of just trying to survive in the world as a person of color) as it stands now, is to be aware of what the issues are, bring them to the attention of the powers that be and be prepared for when my time and opportunity comes to step up. You really think if no one said anything at all and just shut up and take what they got that that would be the solution? Cause that's basically what you are saying. If I say nothing at all and just kept it to myself, the next time this comes around things will be better...No. Progress starts from the people who make the noise about things that just aren't right and the discourse that follows. Then it's up to the ones in control to take the next step forward. Once again..nothing can nor will be perfect but at a certain point people need to take the blinders off and try to see the world for the beautiful potential it could be...instead of letting things just stay the way they are because clearly its not working. And at this stage of the game; we should be doing much better. Of course I am putting all of this in the context of art and Entertainment.   All I am doing is calling truth to power... and in your world telling the truth is "counterproductive".  

 

[broadwaybabywannabe2]

Posted: 6/21/21 at 3:11pm

if the powers that be had only treated IN THE HEIGHTS as more of a fairy tail like ENCHANTED...then maybe more would have shown up...instead to my way of thinking, all the young women look like over done sluts...while the men look just ordinary...nice misogyny maybe?...that opening dance number looked like every dancer in NYC was asked to participate and there didn't seem to be any "real" people dancing in the streets...and the scene in the beauty shop looked like the TV show Claws...in other words, heightened to the unrealistic max!!...i am glad i did not pay to see this...HBO MAX. makes it easy to walk away from it...

[LizzieCurry]

Posted: 6/21/21 at 3:17pm

broadwaybabywannabe2 said: "if the powers that be had only treated IN THE HEIGHTS as more of a fairy tail like ENCHANTED...then maybe more would have shown up...instead to my way of thinking,all the young women look like over done sluts..."

wtffffff

Posted: 6/21/21 at 3:34pm

Nocredits said: "You really think if no one said anything at all and just shut up and take what they got that that would be the solution?".

No. Being vocal is important. I'm saying choosing this specific movie upon which to unleash your diversity criticisms is going to hurt your long-term goal more than help it.

If you want more Latinos behind the camera, a great gateway to that is for Hollywood to make more films about Latino culture. But for Hollywood to make more films about Latino culture, it's incredibly important to champion existing films about Latino culture. If people like you create controversy around Latino-centric films because they don't meet some standard of diversity, executives are going to (correctly) think twice before making the next one. And if they don't make the next one, a bunch of opportunities for Latino jobs in the film industry vanish into thin air.

Anyway, I'm done talking about this. The damage is done. Maybe the next big-budget Latino-centric movie, debuting in 2032, will have a Latino cinematographer and pass your purity test.

[Nocredits]

Posted: 6/21/21 at 6:13pm

"people like you create controversy around Latino-centric films..." and more BS to follow...

Right; cause it was MY decision to white wash ITH. The folks who took issues like I did,were the ones to decided to white wash ITH.  'Look at those black folks in the south "creating controversy" over not being able to vote.'..A small niche community of people who do not feel seen or heard single handily took down Warner Brothers and any other latino centric movies to follow.

Your verbiage, mindset  and false propaganda is problematic and destructive more so than anything I had pointed out in truth and honesty. Your failure to understand what I was addressing and how it was an issue shows in your inconsistent and condescending points you are trying to make. First you blamed he box office disappointment on the movie being about latinos, now you are blaming it on people who called attention to the misrepresentation both on screen and behind the screen. So which is it?!? 

So thank you for being "done talking about this" because that shows you have certain privilege to being only tired of "talking" about this...while the rest of have to live it. 

[Nocredits]

Posted: 6/21/21 at 6:18pm

broadwaybabywannabe2 said: "if the powers that be had only treated IN THE HEIGHTS as more of a fairy tail like ENCHANTED...then maybe more would have shown up...instead to my way of thinking,all the young women look like over done sluts...while the men look just ordinary...nice misogyny maybe?...that opening dance number looked like every dancer in NYC was asked to participate and there didn't seem to be any "real" people dancing in the streets...and the scene in the beauty shop looked like the TV show Claws...in other words, heightened to the unrealistic max!!...i am glad i did not pay to see this...HBO MAX. makes it easy to walk away from it..."

As for you...WTF?!?

[BWNUT]

Posted: 6/21/21 at 8:01pm

hork said: "theatregoer3 said: "Based on the choice of the director I can see this going the way of the Rent movie wherein they had no idea how to translate it or give it a reason to exist so they just created physical movement wherever possible (singing on a bike or walking down the street or adding a chorus of dancers!) to essentially make a reason for its existence and to make it stand out from the stage version. Of course, it was a total disaster and I can't get through it no matter how hard I try.



A visionary director is needed. By that I mean someone who is an artist in their own right. For example, when Spike Lee was slated to direct Rent I thought, "Now this makes sense. This will be GREAT." Columbus and Chu aren't very original and their projects tend to lack and creativity or cohesive vision. Remember the Harry Potter movies? The first two were so basic and then when they finally brought in a visionary director for the third it really lifted the whole series into another world that people of all ages could appreciate.

I couldn't agree more. In fact, since you brought up Spike Lee, I think he'd be the perfect director for In the Heights. But, alas, visionaries don't direct Broadway musical adaptations.

"In hindsight. This was posted in 2016. If only. My reaction after seeing the movie: With this movie and Crazy Rich Asians, Jon M. Chu has perpetuated and reinforced two notoriously popular stereotypes in American culture about two minority groups: Asians smart and rich, Latinos poor.

 

[JasonC3]

Posted: 6/21/21 at 8:58pm

I get that in many industries, particularly entertainment as people have noted here, who you know matters a great deal in terms of whether or not you're hired.

In some corporations (still too few no doubt), managers are held accountable for taking affirmative actions to ensure a diverse pool of qualified candidates has been formed before the selection process begins.

If your pool is insufficiently diverse, you don't move on to reviewing applicants. This forces management teams to think about what they need to be doing in the areas of DEI long before they have a position that needs to be filled.

We can't sit back and hope that the representation we want in our team ranks will apply for open positions, particularly if they historically have felt excluded or under-represented in our institution.

[everythingtaboo]

Posted: 6/21/21 at 9:33pm

broadwaybabywannabe2 said: "if the powers that be had only treated IN THE HEIGHTS as more of a fairy tail like ENCHANTED...then maybe more would have shown up...instead to my way of thinking,all the young women look like over done sluts...while the men look just ordinary...nice misogyny maybe?...that opening dance number looked like every dancer in NYC was asked to participate and there didn't seem to be any "real" people dancing in the streets...and the scene in the beauty shop looked like the TV show Claws...in other words, heightened to the unrealistic max!!...i am glad i did not pay to see this...HBO MAX. makes it easy to walk away from it..."

Your way of thinking is horrific. Walk away from this thread.