When is blind casting okay? — Page 3
#52
Posted: 7/7/14 at 12:03am
A gender revearsed sweeney todd might be interesting... but problematic.
Updated On: 7/7/14 at 12:03 AM
#53
Posted: 7/7/14 at 12:05am
Problematic because it wasn't written for that?
#54
Posted: 7/7/14 at 12:08am
It would require rewriting that sondheim wouldn't approve of. It would still be interesting.
#55
Posted: 7/7/14 at 12:12am
You're eating too much ice cream. You must have a sugar high.
#57
Posted: 7/7/14 at 12:17am
Sweeney is written for a man. There's nothing interesting about a woman playing the role. Just because you might WANT to do something doesn't mean that you can. We really live in this entitled world where all kids are told they can do anything at all they want and being told they can't means that the world is against them.
These conversations are always so F*CKING STUPID.
How about a blind male dwarf playing The Bakers Wife. He really wants to so he's perfect for it! Or what about that braindead lady who's been in a vegetative state for 20 years? It was her dream to play Rose so let's just wheel her out and prop her up. She'd be so inspirational!
These conversations are always so F*CKING STUPID.
How about a blind male dwarf playing The Bakers Wife. He really wants to so he's perfect for it! Or what about that braindead lady who's been in a vegetative state for 20 years? It was her dream to play Rose so let's just wheel her out and prop her up. She'd be so inspirational!
#58
Posted: 7/7/14 at 12:20am
I wouldn't do it but if someone else did it i would go see it and i would probably hate it.
#60
Posted: 7/7/14 at 12:23am
A woman playing Sweeney is no different from a woman playing Hamlet.
#62
Posted: 7/7/14 at 12:55am
Jordan I think I've seen that vegetable lady actress before. Did she play Maria in the live Sound of Music?
#63
Posted: 7/7/14 at 9:38pm
AHLiebross, with respect, you are a font of disinformation in this thread.
The French have always had different constructions of race. There's no reason to assume a black man in 19th century Paris would have been "kept down" by the white majority.
And in WHO'S LIFE IS IT ANYWAY?, Mary Tyler Moore did not play a role that "everybody knew was male." She played a female character that was a male character in a earlier version of the play. The doctor was also recast: there was a female doctor opposite Tom Conti, and James Naughton played the doctor opposite Moore.
In none of these cases was the actor "playing" the opposite gender. She or he simply played her/his own gender in the situation of the plot. I saw both and the play worked fine either way.
The French have always had different constructions of race. There's no reason to assume a black man in 19th century Paris would have been "kept down" by the white majority.
And in WHO'S LIFE IS IT ANYWAY?, Mary Tyler Moore did not play a role that "everybody knew was male." She played a female character that was a male character in a earlier version of the play. The doctor was also recast: there was a female doctor opposite Tom Conti, and James Naughton played the doctor opposite Moore.
In none of these cases was the actor "playing" the opposite gender. She or he simply played her/his own gender in the situation of the plot. I saw both and the play worked fine either way.
#64
Posted: 7/8/14 at 2:26am
Gaveston, I misspoke when I said MTM played a role that everyone knew was male -- what I meant was that everyone knew that it was written for a male. She played it as a woman.
As for mid-to-late 19th century France, I respectfully disagree with your statement that there's "no reason to assume a black man in 19th century Paris would have been 'kept down' by the white majority." The French were big on "Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite" until they had to live it. The sad story of Captain Dreifus (spelling?), who was not black, but Jewish, leads me to believe that the French were not as open-minded as they pretended to be.
It is true that former slaves were able to live much better lives in Europe than in the United States. However, I doubt that they were treated as equals. There is a new movie that discusses a similar issue, in England, but I think it takes place in the 18th century, not the 19th. Still, it shows that Europeans were not always as open-minded as they claimed.
As for mid-to-late 19th century France, I respectfully disagree with your statement that there's "no reason to assume a black man in 19th century Paris would have been 'kept down' by the white majority." The French were big on "Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite" until they had to live it. The sad story of Captain Dreifus (spelling?), who was not black, but Jewish, leads me to believe that the French were not as open-minded as they pretended to be.
It is true that former slaves were able to live much better lives in Europe than in the United States. However, I doubt that they were treated as equals. There is a new movie that discusses a similar issue, in England, but I think it takes place in the 18th century, not the 19th. Still, it shows that Europeans were not always as open-minded as they claimed.
Audrey, the Phantom Phanatic, who nonetheless would rather be Jean Valjean, who knew how to make lemonade out of lemons.
#65
Posted: 7/8/14 at 2:37am
18th century England / 19th century France - really what's the difference??!!
I mean apart from the political systems, history, language, religion, 100 years oh and they're totally different countries.
And Fyi though maybe not "equals" 19th Century France had very prominent artists, authors, and even generals of mixed race. I think you overlook Europe's links to Africa and the middle east go back centuries for better or worse. Alexandre Dumas for instance managed a fair bit of fame and success..
I mean apart from the political systems, history, language, religion, 100 years oh and they're totally different countries.
And Fyi though maybe not "equals" 19th Century France had very prominent artists, authors, and even generals of mixed race. I think you overlook Europe's links to Africa and the middle east go back centuries for better or worse. Alexandre Dumas for instance managed a fair bit of fame and success..
#66
Posted: 7/8/14 at 2:43am
Sorry about the double post, but I just looked back about what I said regarding MTM playing the lead in "Whose Life is it Anyway?"
I said:
Colorblind or sex-blind casting, in my opinion, works in two circumstances: The first is where it doesn't matter what characteristics the character has. As an example, "Whose Life is it Anyway" cast a male (Richard Dreyfuss) in the movie, but at least one female (Mary Tyler Moore) played the role on Broadway. The second is where the character is played by a person with particular characteristics, but everyone knows that he or she is playing someone of another characteristic.
In other words, I did not misspeak -- I was talking about two separate circumstances. The first was sex-switching the role, and the second was blind casting.
Also, at least three people in this discussion seem to think that I am advocating the Phantom be played by a white actor, but I am ABSOLUTELY not doing so -- quite the opposite. What I said was that I think that the Phantom should probably be viewed as a white man REGARDLESS of who plays him, because I believe that the Phantom's motivations could change if he is black. Christine need NOT be a white character, in my opinion, because the story is the same whether she's referred to as Swedish or African.
Please do not connect me with those who say that only white people should play white characters -- I do not hold that opinion at all. OTOH, I prefer not to have white actors play minority characters because of the limited opportunities for actors of color. I guess I believe in partial "race-blind" casting.
I said:
Colorblind or sex-blind casting, in my opinion, works in two circumstances: The first is where it doesn't matter what characteristics the character has. As an example, "Whose Life is it Anyway" cast a male (Richard Dreyfuss) in the movie, but at least one female (Mary Tyler Moore) played the role on Broadway. The second is where the character is played by a person with particular characteristics, but everyone knows that he or she is playing someone of another characteristic.
In other words, I did not misspeak -- I was talking about two separate circumstances. The first was sex-switching the role, and the second was blind casting.
Also, at least three people in this discussion seem to think that I am advocating the Phantom be played by a white actor, but I am ABSOLUTELY not doing so -- quite the opposite. What I said was that I think that the Phantom should probably be viewed as a white man REGARDLESS of who plays him, because I believe that the Phantom's motivations could change if he is black. Christine need NOT be a white character, in my opinion, because the story is the same whether she's referred to as Swedish or African.
Please do not connect me with those who say that only white people should play white characters -- I do not hold that opinion at all. OTOH, I prefer not to have white actors play minority characters because of the limited opportunities for actors of color. I guess I believe in partial "race-blind" casting.
Audrey, the Phantom Phanatic, who nonetheless would rather be Jean Valjean, who knew how to make lemonade out of lemons.
#67
Posted: 7/8/14 at 3:12am
I wonder sometimes, how far can blind casting go?
In The Little Mermaid for example, she had a black father, and a black Prince Eric understudy, but would've they have hired a black Ariel?
Another one is Les Mis, will we ever see a black Jean Valjean?
I applaud The Phantom of The Opera for hiring Norm Lewis for that reason. It seems to me that it's very rare to have a lead role blind casted.
In The Little Mermaid for example, she had a black father, and a black Prince Eric understudy, but would've they have hired a black Ariel?
Another one is Les Mis, will we ever see a black Jean Valjean?
I applaud The Phantom of The Opera for hiring Norm Lewis for that reason. It seems to me that it's very rare to have a lead role blind casted.
#68
Posted: 7/8/14 at 4:37am
I know. They also blind cast the oceans and cast plexiglass instead. It was very rude.
Listen, I don't take my clothes off for anyone, even if it is "artistic". - JANICE
#69
Posted: 7/8/14 at 6:19am
In regards to a reversed gender Sweeney Todd, there is a difference between casting a woman to play a man and changing the part from a man to woman. They are two separate things and change the context of the show. I don't think either would be a good idea in this situation, but in other ones it could work.
Anything regarding shows stated by this account is an attempt to convey opinion and not fact.
#70
Posted: 7/8/14 at 6:34am
AHLiebross, race and racism are constructed differently from place to place and from time to time. You can't use the anti-Semitism of the Dreyfuss Affair to draw accurate conclusions about the treatment of African-French citizens in the 19th century. (The British, on the other hand, tended to lump together all non-Europeans, be they black, brown or yellow. They even used the "N-word" to apply to all.)
I have fewer examples from the 1800s, but Josephine Baker and others lived happily in France in the early 1900s and reported they encountered little racism. I see no reason to assume the Phantom would have had an entirely different experience a few decades earlier.
I have fewer examples from the 1800s, but Josephine Baker and others lived happily in France in the early 1900s and reported they encountered little racism. I see no reason to assume the Phantom would have had an entirely different experience a few decades earlier.
#71
Posted: 7/8/14 at 8:09pm
NateHolder said: "Another one is Les Mis, will we ever see a black Jean Valjean?"
I did. Lawrence Clayton played the role of Valjean when the 25th Anniversary tour began at the Paper Mill Playhouse. I could not tell you if he played Valjean as a white or black man, but he did play the role as a man. The amazing thing, the show still worked as well as it ever has.
Thinking about who can play what role, the two biggest factors will always be about ability - can this individual act/sing/dance the role as written or as envisioned by the director? Then one must consider the story needs - will this performer's presence alter the way the audience sees the story and if so, what is the effect?
Again looking to Les Mis, a recent pattern has Eponine played by actresses of color and Cosette played by white actresses. Both are seen earlier in the show as children, in roles two young girls tend to alternate in. Both girls (in my experience) have been white actresses. While Les Mis is a well-known enough property and the young children as well as their older selves are referred to by name in the show, this sudden visual change in how a character is visibly presented to the audience may confuse some spectators. I am not advocating for either role or casting decision to be altered, but this may be something producers/directors/whoever consider when casting a new property with which the audience may not have the same level of familiarity.
I did. Lawrence Clayton played the role of Valjean when the 25th Anniversary tour began at the Paper Mill Playhouse. I could not tell you if he played Valjean as a white or black man, but he did play the role as a man. The amazing thing, the show still worked as well as it ever has.
Thinking about who can play what role, the two biggest factors will always be about ability - can this individual act/sing/dance the role as written or as envisioned by the director? Then one must consider the story needs - will this performer's presence alter the way the audience sees the story and if so, what is the effect?
Again looking to Les Mis, a recent pattern has Eponine played by actresses of color and Cosette played by white actresses. Both are seen earlier in the show as children, in roles two young girls tend to alternate in. Both girls (in my experience) have been white actresses. While Les Mis is a well-known enough property and the young children as well as their older selves are referred to by name in the show, this sudden visual change in how a character is visibly presented to the audience may confuse some spectators. I am not advocating for either role or casting decision to be altered, but this may be something producers/directors/whoever consider when casting a new property with which the audience may not have the same level of familiarity.
#72
Posted: 7/8/14 at 8:29pm
I think the issue of racial consistency when talking about family members IS important in a show for exactly the reason the Foozle states above-- avoiding confusion in the audience.
I consider myself a pretty sophisticated theater-goer, but seeing Billy Elliott in the West End for the first time with a black Billy left me totally at sea as to who the character was for the first 20 minutes of the show. Of course his dad, brother and Grandma were all white. Could have been that I missed other characters calling him Billy early on due to my ears adjusting to the Geordie accent, but until he stated his name clearly to Mrs. Wilkinson, I just assumed we were waiting a LONG time for the title character to appear.
I consider myself a pretty sophisticated theater-goer, but seeing Billy Elliott in the West End for the first time with a black Billy left me totally at sea as to who the character was for the first 20 minutes of the show. Of course his dad, brother and Grandma were all white. Could have been that I missed other characters calling him Billy early on due to my ears adjusting to the Geordie accent, but until he stated his name clearly to Mrs. Wilkinson, I just assumed we were waiting a LONG time for the title character to appear.
#73
Posted: 7/8/14 at 10:57pm
Re Disney:
Disney Theatrical has said that they practice total "color blind casting" but, despite a fairly decent track record with going outside the box when casting actors (and not just with race--they recently upped Marisha Wallace to an understudy for Babkak, according to Twitter) I believe there are definitely limitations. For example, I don't believe that they would have hired a black actress as Ariel to open the production, regardless of her talent. Perhaps down the line, as they did with Belle, but not at the opening. Maybe I'm just a cynic. :/
Disney Theatrical has said that they practice total "color blind casting" but, despite a fairly decent track record with going outside the box when casting actors (and not just with race--they recently upped Marisha Wallace to an understudy for Babkak, according to Twitter) I believe there are definitely limitations. For example, I don't believe that they would have hired a black actress as Ariel to open the production, regardless of her talent. Perhaps down the line, as they did with Belle, but not at the opening. Maybe I'm just a cynic. :/
#74
Posted: 7/8/14 at 11:14pm
To continue commenting on Disney, their productions are working to be adaptations of movies. They are trying to appease those raised on the original Disney product. Looking beyond looks, Susan Egan even sings Belle somewhat similarly to Paige O'Hara. In "Mermaid," Boggess sounds close to Benson as does Butler in that the later two performers are probably being moderately directed into mimicking the first.
Beyond selling the voice, Disney needs to sell the look. Belle will always descend in a yellow gown and Ariel will always have red hair. The longer a production runs, the more it can stand on its own merits and the more Disney may be willing to be more blind with regard to sound and look. But I would never expect them to open a show based on one of their films that does not adhere to the look of the original as closely as it can.
Beyond selling the voice, Disney needs to sell the look. Belle will always descend in a yellow gown and Ariel will always have red hair. The longer a production runs, the more it can stand on its own merits and the more Disney may be willing to be more blind with regard to sound and look. But I would never expect them to open a show based on one of their films that does not adhere to the look of the original as closely as it can.
#75
Posted: 8/10/16 at 8:57pm
icecreambenjamin said: "He refers to African-Americans as "his people"
"
Randomly found this thread. Didn't you recently claim on here that you are half black? Sure doesn't appear that way in this thread.
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