Who should get the final bow in PIPPIN?- Page 2

[peerrjb]

Posted: 10/13/09 at 3:21am

Not to denigrate anyone's talent.... But the comment that Ms. Rivera was not
"then" nor is "now" a bigger star than Mr. Vereen is patently untrue. When "Pippin" opened, Mr. V had just come off a Tony-nominated turn in "JC Superstar", and Fosse had to talk him into staying in the cast because Mr. V felt the part was too small. Around that same time, Ms. R had already conquered Broadway in both "West Side" and then "Bye Bye Birdie", among other shows. The VIDEO with Ms. R wasn't made until the late 1970's, produced by a TV "critic" (David Sheehan), who begged Ms. R do to the "Pippin" taping/revival (which was not actually directed by Mr. Fosse) to give it some musical-theatre-star "heft". (Mr. Katt was best known for his "Great American Hero" stint....) At the time of the taping, Mr. V was already stuck in the one-role-wonder situation, with the exception of some excellent TV work such as "Roots". Aside from "Grind" (which was a flop), Mr. V's work on Broadway stalled, while Ms. R went on to many other new shows... like "Chicago" and "Spider Woman"...and "The Rink" and "The Visit" and....

So, while not saying that Mr. V's talent or star-power isn't of note, it seems myopic to indicate he was then or is now a bigger star than Ms. R.

As for the Character.... some odd trivia:
In the original script, the "Leading Player" character was called "The Tempter", but was changed when it was determined that the name gave away too much of the end-of-the-show "reveal". And he is ONLY "Leading" the TROUPE of actors performing the "Play".... PIPPIN, if you remember, is supposedly being played by an actor who is performing it for the first time. The confusion has followed the show for a long time, because "Pippin" has far more stage time.

And even back in the 1970's, there was great consternation that John Rubenstein's original performance AS "Pippin" was not nomintated for the Tony, because in reality, the "Leading Player" is a supporting role (supporting Pippin -- GEE, whoda thunk it?!)

[JBSinger]

Posted: 10/13/09 at 8:23am

If I were staging it, Pippin would get the final bow with the Leading player coming out ahead of him (2nd to last).
Then i'd have the two them come together and take a duet bow and then bring the company together.

[Elphie3]

Posted: 10/13/09 at 9:31am

I think it should be a double bow - they both walk out together, then one bows, then the other...

[WOSQ]

Posted: 10/13/09 at 10:08am

If the Leading Player has major charisma, you think his role is huge. It is not. Ben Vereen and Northern Calloway made you think the Player was the lead because every time they were on stage it was their command. In their cases it became an instance of energy taking a featured role and making it into a lead.

In the national tour the Player was less-than-brilliant and exuded far less energy than previous performers in the role, and I realized how much of the show Pippin carries and drives. Pippin is also a physically exhausting role.

Pippin is the lead and his is the through story arc.

Final bow is Pippin solo.

[fashionguru_23]

Posted: 10/13/09 at 1:49pm

When I think of "Pippin", I think of Ben Vereen and the Leading Player.

I would give the bow to the Leading Player.

[yeomansden]

Posted: 10/13/09 at 2:15pm

This is a tough call, and I think the final decision rests with the director, and his vision of the show. Here's a parallel. Who gets the final bow in Cabaret? Sure this changes between productions. I've often seen the Emcee have the final bow, and in fact, got it myself when I played the part. I was a bit surprised, as the Emcee doesn't have nearly the stage time of Cliff or Sally, though he does have more songs, and really isn't part of the plot at all. In fact, he can serve a similar purpose (though not identical) to the Leading Player.

In the case where someone mentioned that Pippin drives the plot of that show, I personally think if Pippin is allowed to drive the show, it isn't going to work. The ending makes no sense. Pippin in fact has to let himself be driven and manipulated by everyone else, especially the Leading Player, or you would never believe that he might be talked into becoming a martyr.

So, yes, perhaps Pippin has more stage time and more songs. But the Leading Player is supposed to be the more dynamic character (In Seth Rudetsky's latest column on playbill.com, he says, "Bob Fosse's concept of Pippin was that the Ben Vereen character is like Charles Manson and the ensemble is like the Manson family." I can see it...) I think giving either character the final call is fine, it depends on what the director thinks is most important in his cast and production.

[Pgenre]

Posted: 10/13/09 at 4:58pm

peerj- I was replying the poster who referred to the VIDEO release/E! broadcast of PIPPIN which was in 1982 and questioned why Vereen got last bow after Rivera on said video... NOT the opening night ten years earlier, which, of course, Vereen was virtually unknown save chorus/featured performances in SWEET CHARITY (film) etc (and Chita was not in the OBC, of course).

"Then" being 1982 and "Now" being 2009, my statement is, was and will remain correct: Vereen is a bigger star than Rivera who, Medal of Honor or not, is largely unknown to the general public - particularly post 1982. I'd venture to say more people know Vereen, if only from ROOTS, than those who can spell "Rivera". She simply was never as high-profile a star as him. I mean, Vereen in ALL THAT JAZZ?! Are you kidding me?!

Perhaps had Chita been given what she deserved and earned in her career it would not be this way, but it is. Janet Leigh got BBB, Rita got WSS and sooner or later Catherine Zeta Jones is gonna get the Spider Woman. Hey, at least Chita got a cameo in CHICAGO so there's some remnant of her for musical theatre posterity on film.

Thanks for the other info though.

ALSO - Leading Player/Emcee comparison - isn't the famous "wall of light" opening and the presence of the Leading Player the reason Hal Prince and Sondheim were said to have been "fuming" on opening night and where the rivalry/hatred started between Prince and Fosse? I mean the wall of light had been used in European shows even before CABARET and the Emcee can hardly be considered the same as the Leading Player, but that's the story that's been told ever since the opening night of PIPPIN.

P

Updated On: 10/13/09 at 04:58 PM

[jv92]

Posted: 12/26/10 at 9:23pm

I think the Fosse/Hal animosity started back when Prince cut Fosse's "Red Light" Ballet from New Girl in Town. I do know that they kissed and made up before Fosse's death in 1987 when Fosse did some doctoring on "Grind", at Hal's request...not Ben Vereen's (Surprising, I know).

I don't know why Sondheim would be fuming after Pippin's opening night. It's not like the wall-of-light and MC concepts were used in one of his shows. If anything, I would think Sondheim would have enjoyed the imaginative Fosse staging...maybe not so much some of Schwartz's clumsy lyrics. Hal Prince's anger is another story though.

I've always enjoyed Pippin. The score isn't Schwartz's very best work (That would be The Baker's Wife", but Fosse's work is imaginative, as stated above. Thank God for the commercial video release from the 80s.

[romgitsean]

Posted: 12/26/10 at 10:07pm

Funny this should be brought up.

I was just in Pippin as Charles, and this is what we did (as I wondered the same thing myself):

LP bowed, then Pippin, then it was a joined bow. Fastrada also bowed after me...which I thought was strange, considering Charles singing-wise has a bigger part then Fastrada.

But I agree with the poster who directed the show without bows. Go you. I suggested it to a friend backstage and they flipped. Bows take away from the intensity of the ending, if the ending is supposed to be "impromptu".

Updated On: 12/28/10 at 10:07 PM

[SeanMartin]

Posted: 12/26/10 at 11:11pm

>> I think the Fosse/Hal animosity started back when Prince cut Fosse's "Red Light" Ballet from New Girl in Town.

... which is somewhat ironic in that the directorial "concept" dictated that everyone *but* Gwen Verdon would dance in the show. But as previews went on, it became clear the audience wanted to see her out there like she was in "Damn Yankees". As a result, when there was a problem in the show, they solved it by giving her another dance number.