Why do so few New World Stages shows transfer to Broadway?

[Jonathan Cohen]

Posted: 4/16/24 at 8:04pm

With New World Stages having 5 Off-Broadway theaters, it's curious there aren't more examples of productions incubated there making the jump to Broadway. Rock of Ages and Melissa Etheridge's My Window come to mind. I'm not sure if there are others. 

On the other hand, Peter and the Starcatcher, Rent, The 39 Steps, Jersey Boys, Avenue Q, The Play That Goes Wrong, Million Dollar Quartet, and even Rock of Ages again, played New World Stages after runs on Broadway.  

Is this the result of a deliberate strategy by The Shubert Organization or just bad luck more new work performed there doesn't transfer to Broadway? 

[TotallyEffed]

Posted: 4/16/24 at 8:13pm

Because that is where Broadway shows go to die.

[Kad]

Posted: 4/16/24 at 8:15pm

Once they figure out how to make more than a gazillion bubbles, they’ll transfer. 

[JoeW4]

Posted: 4/16/24 at 10:32pm

Because it's a commercial venue, and the vast majority of OffBway-to-Bway transfers come from non-profits. It's actually quite unusual (at least in the last decade or so) for Broadway productions to originate in the commercial Off-Broadway sphere, without having a Non-Profit run in NYC first. And even when they do, they're usually comedy/concert/entertainment style shows (e.g. My Window, Freestyle Love Supreme, Oh Hello, Just For Us, etc.). In the last decade or so, the only exceptions to this I can think of (i.e. more traditional plays/musicals) have been Be More Chill and Disaster, though I might be forgetting some.

"Oh Mary" and/or "Job" might be added to that list soon, if rumors are to be believed. But as the recent NYT article pointed out, these shows are the result of a surprising renaissance in commercial theatre, which is very atypical for recent years.

I'm not a producer, but just from observing on the outside, I get the sense that there has been a general mentality that if you're gonna mount a commercial production, you choose whether Off-Broadway or Broadway is more appropriate/attainable. And if you happen to be successful Off-Broadway commercially, you count your blessings and just keep chugging along without messing with a good thing.

Updated On: 4/16/24 at 10:32 PM

[blaxx]

Posted: 4/16/24 at 10:59pm

TotallyEffed said: "Because that is where Broadway shows go to die."



Exactly, what did Broadway do to deserve those awful shows?

Updated On: 4/16/24 at 10:59 PM

[chrishuyen]

Posted: 4/17/24 at 12:26am

I think the other thing is that commercial off-Broadway is fundamentally different from Broadway in the type of expectations it sets, the audience it attracts, and what shows play well.  The theaters are smaller, which automatically allows shows to be smaller in scale as well and not necessarily need a huge production value (that's not to say you can't have great production value off-Broadway, but it's not something people look for in the same way they might on Broadway). Puffs was a show I loved at NWS, and I think it had a decent run there, but there was never any way that that would've worked on a Broadway stage.

It's probably also cheaper to run (I assume there are different types of contracts involved too), which is also less pressure on the producers to fill the theater every day.  From what I recall when I went, Rock of Ages was doing well but it wasn't like it was sold out or a hard ticket to get, so I doubt they would've been successful in a Broadway theater just based on sheer size.  Even Melissa Etheridge's show seemed to be struggling for attendance when it transferred.

The other thing is, in conjunction with what JoeW4 mentioned, I think nonprofits have the benefit of really helping to produce and develop the work with the hopes of giving it a future life (whether that's Broadway or just licensing/other regional productions), but NWS doesn't really do that, and so I would assume that shows that play there are mostly shows that are just there to present the show as is, and not necessarily incubate it.  Of course, I'm sure producers would be happy for any show to go on to have greater commercial appeal, but I don't think NWS is necessarily their choice to go to if they have their sights set on Broadway.

I'd actually wonder if we might start to see more of a resurgence in commercial off-Broadway spaces, what with the conversation about shows like Oh Mary and Job transferring (both shows which sound like they work better in small spaces--I've only seen Job so far).  Of course there's also the higher profile of having a show on Broadway and being in the Tonys conversation as another factor, but how many times have we said that a show couldn't fill a Broadway house and would do better at New World Stages?

[Jonathan Cohen]

Posted: 4/17/24 at 1:31am

JoeW4 said: "Because it's a commercial venue, and the vast majority of OffBway-to-Bway transfers come from non-profits. It's actually quite unusual (at least in the last decade or so) for Broadway productions to originate in the commercial Off-Broadway sphere, without having a Non-Profit run in NYC first. And even when they do, they're usually comedy/concert/entertainment style shows (e.g. My Window, Freestyle Love Supreme, Oh Hello, Just For Us, etc.). In the last decade or so, the only exceptions to this I can think of (i.e. more traditional plays/musicals) have been Be More Chill and Disaster, though I might be forgetting some."

That's a great point about non-profit vs. commercial off-Broadway venues, and where Broadway shows are coming from. However, that reality seems completely counterintuitive. For example, The Public, a non-profit, scored huge from A Chorus Line and Hamilton profits after those shows became hits on Broadway. 

(At this point, The Public is probably getting 6% of Hamilton's net profit.)

The upside from that type of profit participation arrangement, would seemingly encourage commercial off-Broadway venues to focus more on incubating shows with a real chance of reaching Broadway. 

[JoeW4]

Posted: 4/17/24 at 9:18am

^But as chrishuyen was pointing out, New World Stages is a landlord, not a producer. So they’re not entitled to a financial stake in any Broadway transfers of shows that rent space from them.

[Jonathan Cohen]

Posted: 4/17/24 at 10:54am

I do understand your point. I'm thinking both for New World Stages and commercial theaters in general, just renting space/being a landlord 100% of the time is an overly rigid business model. 

New World has 5 stages. Say they take just one of the stages, once or twice a year, and incubate a promising show and do take a producer role, instead the upfront landlord money. If they're competent at it which doesn't magically just happen; this is what potentially could occur: 

A lot of the shows they produce flame out. A few make it to Broadway. A smaller number actually succeed on Broadway, which they profit from.  

But what would also happen is suddenly the perception of New World Stages goes from "where Broadway shows go to die" and a place for shows which will never be good enough for Broadway to a more prestigious venue. It would make it easier to compete with non-profit venues for the best off-Broadway shows, even on shows they're still just landlords for. You could also potentially raise ticket prices across the board on all stages, once New World is no longer viewed as Broadway's graveyard. 

[Kad]

Posted: 4/17/24 at 11:00am

I think the answer is similar to why shows that started at Theater Row, a similar multiple stage off-Broadway venue, don't transfer to bigger spaces: these venues are low-cost and not particularly discerning with tenants, which leads to a lot of lower quality shows renting space. 

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 4/17/24 at 12:37pm

Not every show aims for Broadway. “Off" Broadway is its own thing, and always has been. It’s not just a stepping stone to commercial success, an “incubation” clinic. Off Broadway is not “lesser than”, and Broadway is not a promotion.

[Jonathan Cohen]

Posted: 4/17/24 at 5:08pm

Jay Lerner-Z said: "Not every show aims for Broadway. “Off" Broadway is its own thing, and always has been. It’s not just a stepping stone to commercial success, an “incubation” clinic. Off Broadway is not “lesser than”, and Broadway is not a promotion."

Totally and I think Yiddish Fiddler on the Roof is an example of New World having a stunning off-Broadway show that’s not lesser than. But also New World Stages has it’s fair share of shows like Rock and Roll Man and A Sign of the Times, which are clearly gunning for Broadway and never are going to get there. 

[HogansHero]

Posted: 4/17/24 at 6:36pm

Once upon a time, NWS was Dodger Stages. The ambition of Dodgers at the time aligned pretty much with the "concept" of the OP in this thread. They hoped to have in-town equivalents of out-of-town tryouts, without the costs of going out of town, and with the talent pool mostly built-in. The concept failed, the Shuberts took it over, and things went downhill fast. Part of it was the broader decline of commercial off-B, part of it was the ascension of non-profit off-B into real estate that no commercial landlord could ever imagine, and part of it was floating on of some Shubert conspiracy theories. With a few exceptions that were very much not the rule, what followed down the steps into the dismal halls of NWS was mostly garbage, and most of it defied and continues to defy even the most liberal definition of "theatre." [And no, it was not just NWS, Theatre Row followed the same descent and bears little similarity to what it was in the early days, and we can say the same of places like the Little Shubert and even less of places that were never terribly high on the totem pole, like St. Lukes, the Actors Temple, etc.] No matter how much we may want it to be otherwise, this is an idea that does not have legs. Many have tried, some still do, but hardly any succeed.

[Matt Rogers]

Posted: 4/17/24 at 6:53pm

Here is the show history of New World Stages. Contrary to what one of the usual snark kings posted, they have had plenty of quality shows:

 

Stage 1

499 Seats

• The Great American Trailer Park Musical, August 20, 2005 – December 4, 2005
• Evil Dead the Musical, October 2, 2006 – February 17, 2007
• Elvis People, June 6, 2007 – June 23, 2007
• Die, Mommie, Die!, October 9, 2007 – January 13, 2008
• Jackie Mason: The Ultimate Jew, March 18, 2008 – July 20, 2008
• Rock of Ages, October 1, 2008 – January 4, 2009[11]
• The Toxic Avenger, March 18, 2009 – January 3, 2010
• The 39 Steps, March 25, 2010 – January 16, 2011
• Between Worlds (Entre Mundos), March 4, 2011 – April 24, 2011
• Rent, July 14, 2011 – September 9, 2012
• Peter and the Starcatcher, March 18, 2013 – January 12, 2014
• Heathers: The Musical, March 17, 2014 – August 4, 2014
• Nevermore: The Imaginary Life and Mysterious Death of Edgar Allan Poe, January 14, 2015 – March 29, 2015
• Tappin' Thru Life, December 23, 2015 – February 21, 2016
• iLuminate, November 22, 2016 – January 8, 2017
• Building the Wall, May 12, 2017 - June 4, 2017
• Jersey Boys, November 22, 2017 – May 22, 2022
• Melissa Etheridge My Window - A Journey Through Life, October 13, 2022 - October 29, 2022
• Fidler Afn Dakh, November 13, 2022 – January 1, 2023
• iLuminate, November 17, 2023 – January 21, 2024
• A Sign of the Times, February 8, 2024 – Present

Stage 2

350 Seats

• Pieces (of Ass), December 7, 2004 – March 27, 2005
• Drumstruck, May 12, 2005 – November 12, 2006
• Bill W. and Dr. Bob, February 16, 2007 – June 10, 2007
• Celia, August 28, 2007 – May 25, 2008
• Flamingo Court, July 17, 2008 – September 28, 2008
• Rooms – A Rock Romance, February 27, 2009 – May 10, 2009
• Gazillion Bubble Show, September 2009 – Present (moved from Stage 3)
• Voca People, February 16, 2012 – September 2, 2012
• Jackie Hoffman's A Chanukah Carol, December 8, 2012 - December 29, 2012
• Greed: A Musical for Our Times, March 19, 2014 - April 19, 2014
• Blank! The Musical, November 1, 2014 - November 30, 2014
• Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus LIVE!, October 22, 2015 – November 29, 2015
• One Funny Mother, March 31, 2016 – January 7, 2017
• Katsura Sunshine's Rakugo, September 19, 2019 – Present

Stage 3

499 Seats

• Mandy Patinkin in Concert, September 20, 2004 – October 28, 2004
• Modern Orthodox, November 11, 2004 – May 8, 2005
• A Mother, A Daughter, and A Gun, October 14, 2005 – November 27, 2007
• Burleigh Grime$, May 23, 2006 – July 16, 2006
• Mimi le Duck, November 6, 2006 – December 3, 2006
• Gazillion Bubble Show, January 17, 2007 – September 2009 (moved to Stage 2)
• Avenue Q, October 9, 2009 – May 26, 2019
• Rock of Ages, June 19, 2019 – March 11, 2020
• A Sherlock Carol, November 11, 2021 – January 2, 2022
• ¡Americano!, March 31, 2022 – June 19, 2022
• A Sherlock Carol, November 21, 2022 – January 1, 2023
• Dog Man: The Musical, March 4, 2023 - April 30, 2023
• Rock and Roll Man, June 3, 2023 – September 1, 2023[24]
• Mind Mangler: A Night of Tragic Illusion, November 10, 2023 – January 28, 2024[25]
• Stalker, March 18, 2024 – Present[26]

Stage 4

350 Seats

• The Immigrant, October 8, 2004 - November 28, 2004
• Altar Boyz, February 15, 2005 – January 10, 2010
• Naked Boys Singing, October 14, 2005 – January 28, 2012
• White's Lies, April 12, 2010 – June 13, 2010
• Freckleface Strawberry, October 1, 2010 – April 24, 2011
• Jump, May 11, 2011 - June 12, 2011
• Million Dollar Quartet, July 28, 2011 – June 24, 2012
• Bullet for Adolf, July 19, 2012 – September 30, 2012
• Bare the musical, November 19, 2012 – February 3, 2013
• iLuminate, June 24, 2013 – January 18, 2015
• Clinton: The Musical, March 25, 2015 – June 21, 2015
• Shear Madness, October 22, 2015 – July 10, 2016[27]
• Not That Jewish, October 6, 2016 – April 30, 2017[28]
• The Government Inspector, July 5, 2017 - August 20, 2017[29]
• A Clockwork Orange, September 2, 2017 - December 2, 2017[30]
• Desperate Measures, May 30, 2018 – October 28, 2018
• The Play That Goes Wrong, February 11, 2019 – Present

Stage 5

199 Seats

• Symphonie Fantastique: August 31, 2004 – January 2, 2005
• The Musical of Musicals (The Musical!), February 2, 2005 – November 13, 2005
• Christine Jorgensen Reveals, December 29, 2005 – January 18, 2006
• Sidd: A New Musical, February 23, 2006 – March 26, 2006
• How to Save the World and Find True Love in 90 Minutes, November 4, 2006 – December 31, 2006
• Sealed for Freshness, February 15, 2007 – April 29, 2007
• My First Time, July 12, 2007 – January 22, 2010
• The All-American Sport of Bi-Partisan Bashing, August 6, 2007 – October 14, 2007
• Make Me a Song, October 30, 2007 – December 30, 2007
• Pinkalicious, the Musical, January 12, 2008 – September 21, 2008
• Tim Minchin, March 5, 2008 – April 12, 2008
• The Castle, March 30, 2008 – May 23, 2009
• East 14th, June 26, 2008 – September 6, 2008
• What's That Smell: The Music of Jacob Sterling, November 1, 2008 – December 28, 2008
• Flamingo Court, April 18, 2009 – July 19, 2009
• For Lovers Only (Love Songs...Nothing But Love Songs, April 24, 2009 – August 3, 2009
• Love Child, October 23, 2009 – January 3, 2010
• The Temperamentals, February 18, 2010 – May 30, 2010
• John Tartaglia's ImaginOcean, March 17, 2010 – September 4, 2011
• Devil Boys from Beyond, November 3, 2010 – December 4, 2010
• La Barberia, February 3, 2011 – June 12, 2011
• Freud's Last Session, October 7, 2011 – July 22, 2012
• In the Bar of a Tokyo Hotel, October 13, 2012 – October 28, 2012
• Forever Dusty, November 11, 2012 – April 7, 2013
• The Two-Character Play, June 13, 2013 – September 29, 2013
• Murder for Two, November 6, 2013 – June 29, 2014
• Stalking the Bogeyman, September 12, 2014 – November 9, 2014
• Churchill, February 6, 2015 – July 12, 2015
• Would You Still Love Me If..., October 10, 2015 – October 26, 2015
• Mad Libs Live!, November 1, 2015 – January 3, 2016
• Real Men: The Musical, November 12, 2015 – December 12, 2015
• The Woodsman, January 27, 2016 – May 29, 2016
• A Class Act, July 9, 2016 – August 28, 2016
• Verso, September 19, 2016 – November 27, 2016
• Church & State, March 3, 2017 – June 4, 2017
• Puffs, or: Seven Increasingly Eventful Years at a Certain School of Magic and Magic, July 8, 2017 – August 18, 2019
• MsTRIAL, November 14, 2019 – February 2, 2020
• Drift, February 29, 2020 – March 11, 2020
• The Alchemist, November 7, 2021 – December 15, 2021
• Little Girl Blue, March 5, 2022 – May 29, 2022
• Without You, January 14, 2023 – June 11, 2023
• Dracula, A Comedy of Terrors, September 4, 2023 – January 7, 2024
• The Life and Slimes of Marc Summers, February 14, 2024 - present 

[uncageg]

Posted: 4/17/24 at 7:52pm

I worked at NWS for many years. I would first like to know what "Shubert conspiracy theories" there were?  Also, The Shuberts did not take it over from Dodgers. Stage Entertainment ran it for 9 years in between Dodgers and the Shuberts. 

[HogansHero]

Posted: 4/17/24 at 8:42pm

@Matt Rogers "they have had plenty of quality shows"

I don't think the list you c&p'd bears out your assertion but you are obviously entitled to your opinion. Understand, though, that my observations (assuming I was within your target) were addressed to a smaller sample (the degradation to which I referred) and the scope on which the OP focused (NWS->Bway). I hardly think you are suggesting that NWS  contributed to the "quality" of, e.g., Rent. If anything it likely did some tarnishing of the brand and was, like many of the others, unsuccessful. If you make a list of the successes, especially in the last decade or so, you will find that the garbage label is pretty apt.

@uncageg, I am very aware of the transition from DSE to SE to the Shuberts but I did not feel it was relevant to add that complication into the arc. (And it is pretty complicated if you go through the whole mess.) I wasn't trying to occlude anything. This was not a case in which any landlord has ever come out on top. Finally, re the "conspiracy theory," it is a familiar one regarding several things they have undertaken in the last decade+ to make sure that the number of Broadway houses did not increase. I have no information on that beyond that awareness, and don't really have an opinion on it, but it is a very firmly held conviction by a good number of people in the community. (And to that end, and tangentially addressing a comment made in a post in this thread, the Shuberts are not only a landlord but also a producer. Had they been so inclined, they could have acted like a producer and tried to salvage their investment in the multiplex.)

[Matt Rogers]

Posted: 4/17/24 at 9:00pm

HogansHero said: "@Matt Rogers "they have had plenty of quality shows"

I don't think the list you c&p'd bears out your assertion but you are obviously entitled to your opinion. Understand, though, that my observations (assuming I was within your target) were addressed to a smaller sample (the degradation to which I referred) and the scope on which the OP focused (NWS->Bway). I hardly think you are suggesting that NWScontributed to the "quality" of, e.g., Rent. If anything it likely did some tarnishing of the brand and was, like many of the others, unsuccessful. If you make a list of the successes, especially in the last decade or so, you will find that the garbage label is pretty apt.

@uncageg, I am very aware of the transition from DSE to SE to the Shuberts but I did not feel it was relevant to add that complication into the arc. (And it is pretty complicated if you go through the whole mess.) I wasn't trying to occlude anything. This was not a case in which any landlord has ever comeout on top. Finally, re the "conspiracy theory," it is a familiar one regarding several things they have undertaken in the last decade+ to make sure that the number of Broadway houses did not increase. I have no information on that beyond that awareness, and don't really have an opinion on it, but it is a very firmly held conviction by a good number of people in the community. (And to that end, and tangentially addressing a comment made in a post in this thread, the Shuberts are not only a landlord but also a producer. Had they been so inclined, they could haveacted like a producer and triedto salvage their investment in the multiplex.)"

I was not referring to you. As to your post, there are so many shows that have performed at NWS that have gone on to have a bigger life - if not Broadway, then in regionals. I’m not going to do another list but there have been a lot of quality and successful shows. 

[uncageg]

Posted: 4/18/24 at 12:03am

All I can say is that you are way off base regarding the "conspiracy Theory". Having no information on it and basing it on "firmly held convictions" does not make it so.

[HogansHero]

Posted: 4/18/24 at 12:36am

uncageg said: "All I can say is that you are way off base regarding the "conspiracy Theory". Having no information on it and basing it on "firmly held convictions" does not make it so."

Are you saying that I have mis-stated the conspiracy theory about the Shubert acquisition of NWS? How am I off base? Do you understand that a conspiracy theory is not rooted in facts, and that there are people who nonetheless firmly believe it? There is nothing in my post suggesting that I believe the theory; in fact, I expressly say I don't because I have no information that would lead me to believe it. But I DO know that there are people who do believe it [firmly] (that's how conspiracy theories work), and this is familiar because there have been articles about it in the theatrical press and I have personally spoken to people in the business who believe that the Shuberts have taken actions to thwart any growth in the number of Broadway houses, including not only NWS but also what was the Little Shubert and that parking lot they they owned. I am not sure how but perhaps you misapprehended my intention, but I have quite clearly said nothing that would "make it (i.e., the conspiracy theory) so."

@Matt, I don't expect you to make another list. As I said, I just don't see it but we can see this differently without the need to trudge back through anything. 

[uncageg]

Posted: 4/18/24 at 1:26am

Noted. So I will just say that, since you brought them up, those theories are incorrect.

Updated On: 4/18/24 at 01:26 AM

[HogansHero]

Posted: 4/18/24 at 2:14am

@uncageg,well that does not follow. If you are suggesting you know something that others don't then feel free to explain, or not. I very much doubt you do, based on what you have already said here.