marius vs ignorance??

[dabster]

Posted: 1/12/05 at 7:00pm

one question has always bothered me about marius, in les mis..is that he is basically a big arse to eponine by not recognising that he likes her(although I cant imagine why he couldnt recognise it!!)and secondly ,does anyone think in the musical he actually redeems himself within the plot because he takes the chance and fights with his "brothers" on the barricades??

[kangaroo]

Posted: 1/12/05 at 7:15pm

I am not a guy, so I can't really speak for them, but this is my point of view: Marius doesn't really see it. He sings at one point "I love the way you tease" after Eponine tries to flirt with him. Also, he experienced love at first sight with Cosette (daughter of Fantine). Also keep in mind, Marius never really knew that Eponine liked him. We saw the musical from all points of the view, Marius wasn't a prick... he was just in love with another girl, and blinded by his own love. We just understand Eponine the best, because we have all been in that situation. I personally think that Eponine should have just told him, instead of painfully waiting for him and holding onto a hope she shouldn't have had.

I hope this explains it for you... Marius is just a boy, that couldn't see the signs in front of him. Everyone has done that before, only we will never know... because just like Eponine, they may never reveal themselves to us.

[BSoBW2]

Posted: 1/12/05 at 7:18pm

agreed, Kangaroo

Marius isn't really an arse, as Kangaroo said.

I think he liked Ponine as a friend - maybe even loved her as a friend...but he is supposed to be good looking - and so is Cosette...it's the ultimate "She's All That" but instead of becoming beautiful, Eponine connects Marius and Cosette...

[Justice]

Posted: 1/12/05 at 7:19pm

In the book, Marius barely knew Eponine. I don't even think he knew her name, because when she was dying, he didn't even recognize her until after she was dead.
In the musical, they are, what seems to be best friends. The way I see it, is that Marius loves Eponine the same way he would love his best male friend. Like, his feelings towrds Enjolras. He looks up to him as a role model, and looks at Eponine like his equal. He loved her. But not the same way he loved Cosette. I never got anything more from their relationship (and I have studied this musical back and forth for over ten years)

[kangaroo]

Posted: 1/12/05 at 7:23pm

The way I view it, is that two pretty people can fall in love. It is shown that Marius is at least infatuated with Cosette. I think it's kind of confusing why Eponine would show Cosette to Marius. I think when Eponine introduced the two of them, she hurt herself even more. She tried to make him happy because she wanted him to be happy, but in the end I dont' think she really expected them to fall in love so quickly.
While I do admit it's a pretty couple relationship, yes... why can't good-looking people have a meaningful relationship?

But I do agree with you BsoBW2... Marius did love Eponine as a friend, but he never really got the chance to tell her that their relationship stopped at friendship.

[kangaroo]

Posted: 1/12/05 at 7:26pm

I think that also the fact that Cosette was a lot more girly than Eponine was, and she was willing to almost make him work for her love. During a "Heart Full of Love", she starts to pretend to leave, but then she comes back. Eponine was much more tough than Cosette was, and when she went to the barricade to fight to be with Marius, he viewed her "as one of the guys". As painful as that sounds, she fought with the guys, and none of the other girls put themselves in the position to be killed like Eponine did.

[EponineThenardier]

Posted: 1/12/05 at 7:27pm

Poor me...

[Type_A_Tiff]

Posted: 1/12/05 at 7:29pm

I don't think Marius is a jerk, he's just dense. [insert typical guy comment here ] I remember seeing him only really get upset over Eponine when she's dead in his arms, and by then I've rolled my eyes going, "A bit late, don't you think?"

It doesn't help that I don't think that Marius and Cosette in the current tour have as much chemistry as Marius and Eponine, so I really couldn't support the Cosette factor at all. (Is it just casting, or has anyone else noticed that?)

[dabster]

Posted: 1/12/05 at 7:32pm

when they sing "a little fall of rain" do you think he recognises that eponine loves him and is saying words of love, or he still doesnt?(I do understand that the book is totally different.)

[kangaroo]

Posted: 1/12/05 at 7:37pm

I personally don't think he really recognizes it, because he is more worried about his dying friend lying in his arms. He is upset about her dying, and I think he is so devastated. Maybe he does realize it, but it is kind of late for him. Again, Marius could think that Eponine's words of love meant purely friendship... though it is not the case, maybe Marius takes it as a loving friendship, because that is how he views Eponine.

And about rolling your eyes about being a bit late during "A Little Fall of Rain"... I didn't really blame Marius, I dont' really know why. I felt that he didn't really understand what was going on, but they were still just good pals. I think the worst part after Eponine's death, a bit later, he talks about Cosette all over again. That hurt the most for me... that his best girl friend just passed away, and he was still thinking about his love. But... he can't help who he falls in love with.

[dabster]

Posted: 1/12/05 at 7:45pm

how sad is thaqt even in death they really were not on the same wave length,i think that shows how different they were as characters because you would think that at some time marius would have recognised it, and although it was unrequited love, it was probably a good thing because it was not meant to be (btw I know that it is a musical and not real life, but it is sometimes nice to indulge.)

[Type_A_Tiff]

Posted: 1/12/05 at 7:45pm

"That hurt the most for me... that his best girl friend just passed away, and he was still thinking about his love."

Exactly. And by my "a bit late" comment, I think I was referring more to the fact that he appreciates her and cherishes their friendship too late - I don't think he ever realizes that she loves him "that way" at all.

[EponineThenardier]

Posted: 1/12/05 at 7:48pm

Believeability plays a major role here. Cosette's role in the musical is not a strong part at all. The part needs a lot more beef. Eponine is given more potential so people have trouble comprehending that Marius loves Cosette who is a 2D character.

In the movie, with Liam Neeson, (I haven't seen it) Cosette supposively gets a MAJOR part in the story. Eponine isn't even in the movie as a grown up. Its all just Marius and Cosette.

I think the part of Cosette needs a little bit of rewriting and depth, then Marius wouldn't seem so clueless.

[dabster]

Posted: 1/12/05 at 7:54pm

I think also that the 2d characters within the musical are in line with other boublil and schoenburg muscials, maybe it is a french thing because it is the same in the hunchback musical,maybe it is lost in translation?

[QueenMuppet]

Posted: 1/12/05 at 7:56pm

As Justice already mentioned, in the original novel by Hugo, Marius didn't care about Eponine and as far as I remember, she had to beg him for one last kiss before she died. Actually, he comes across as a big jerk in the novel, compared to the 'innocent puppy' they made him in the musical.

QM

[kangaroo]

Posted: 1/12/05 at 7:56pm

I have seen the movie, and it does focus a lot more on Cosette. Cosette had to live in a convent to hid with her "father" Valjean so they wouldn't be caught. If I do remember correctly, Eponine is never shown (which means you are correct).

I also agree with you about Cosette. She was almost written in a way that you were supposed to not like her. Eponine's songs are more in depth, and it tells us more about her. Cosette, on the other hand, sings "Castle" as a young child... and basically sings one short song about her life, before Marius comes in and that is basically all that they sing about... together.

[EponineThenardier]

Posted: 1/12/05 at 7:57pm

Yea it's interesting, I've never read the novel but I've heard that they took some liberties with the characters and such. I'm guessing one of them had a soft spot for Eponine.

[Type_A_Tiff]

Posted: 1/12/05 at 8:01pm

Well Cosette really serves no purpose except to be plot glue, so to speak. I wish she had been shaped more - I mean, it's possible to write 2 women as sympathetic leads and still have you feel sorry for one while supporting the other (I'm thinking of Aida and Amneris in the musical version of AIDA here) - instead, you're so conflicted because Cosette in the show is such a blah character that you don't hate Marius for choosing her (she's not despicable) but you can't cheer for him either.

[EponineThenardier]

Posted: 1/12/05 at 8:04pm

Exactly Tiff, with Aida and Amneris both characters have been written so strongly that it is up to the actress's playing them to make it work.

I'm keeping my eyes peeled for scary pictures Tiff, so you can use them as you icon.

[Type_A_Tiff]

Posted: 1/12/05 at 8:06pm

Thanks Ep. Ms. Wildenstein is pretty scary herself though, eh?

[BSoBW2]

Posted: 1/12/05 at 8:07pm

Well, book aside since it overly complicates the musical...and this discussion...

I never really liked Cosette...be it the music she sings or just the character...

Back to the book for a minute, she was the pretty girl, very full of herself in a way...

When we first "meet" Eponine (the adult), she is with Marius. When we last see her (alive), she is with Marius. I think she realized that she would never win Marius. She did, however, love him and wanted him to be happy. She brought him to Cosette in hope that he will see her (eponine) as a true friend.

[QueenMuppet]

Posted: 1/12/05 at 8:07pm

There are a lot of big differences between the novel and the musical. Eponine is also meant to be quite ugly and have a husky, ugly voice. If you consider which 'princesses' tend to play her in the musical it always makes me smile. I have only seen one Eponine who tried to pull off the Eponine descriped in the novel which was very reshreshing to see.

QM

[Shawk]

Posted: 1/12/05 at 8:07pm

You also have to remember that Marius is in a completely different social class from Eponine. He would not ever have the expectation to fall in love with someone of her class, nor would he probably think it likely for someone of her class to be seriously in love with him.

[Rose_MacShane]

Posted: 1/12/05 at 8:07pm

Tiff: Finally, someone who agrees with me on Cosette! It feels like she's only there to be Marius' love interest. I mean, let's face it, she doesn't really do anything once Valjean takes custody of her. Her role is that of a pretty woman in a big-ass dress who can sing very nicely.

As for Marius, he's dense, like a lot of guys (and before I get attacked by the guys of the board, let me just say that I know full well that girls can be every bit as dense as guys, myself included).

"I've never read the novel but I've heard that they took some liberties with the characters and such. I'm guessing one of them had a soft spot for Eponine."

It's interesting: A friend of mine read the book and claims that Eponine isn't in it at all. Yes, he's extremely scatterbrained...

Updated On: 1/12/05 at 08:07 PM

[kangaroo]

Posted: 1/12/05 at 8:07pm

I agree with you, but don't forget that Fantine is also an important character in all of this. She was shaped pretty well. But I do agree about Aida, they were both shaped very well. I think Amneris really flourished towards the end, but Cosette does get rather bland during the musical... I think that you're right... they kind of just have Cosette there to have her in the plot. I feel she never develops in the musical.