"Wicked" plot holes- Page 2

[Liverpool]

Posted: 1/22/07 at 9:49pm

when did this show get so hard to follow? Seriously, you have that many questions?

[zepka102]

Posted: 1/22/07 at 9:59pm

“5) Why is Glinda made Glinda the Good during Intemission”

Because during intermission after Elphaba flied away they discussed during Defying Gravity what each of them were going to do. Elphaba flew off as an enemy and Glinda stayed back because she wanted the fame and all that jazz. Glinda knew everything that happened during all of that so Morrible probably offered her a place in power because Glinda acted loyal and it would get Glinda to shut up. At the time Glinda thought this was the right thing to do."



This makes sense if you think about the dialogue between Glinda and Morrible during "March of the Witch Hunters." Glinda pieces it together that Morrible is responsible for Nessa's death. Morrible tells her to shut up and go along with it because its "what she wanted from the very beginning"... so Morrible probably offered the fame and power to Glinda as Holly said to keep her mouth shut about the Wizard.

[admanrich]

Posted: 1/22/07 at 10:35pm

The "child of both worlds" has always bugged me. It's such a gaping plot hole.

Posted: 1/22/07 at 10:42pm

i'm a child of both worlds & i cant hardly do nuthin.

[best12bars]

Posted: 1/22/07 at 11:07pm

At least "Wicked" has a plot. And a good one!

I'm so sick and tired of shows that do not.

[bella cantato]

Posted: 1/22/07 at 11:51pm

Hmmm. Did she specifically plan to pick up Dorothy? That's a good question. I honestly don't know. My immediate instinct is to say yes, but, it definitely is open to interpretation. Unless there's a line I'm missing somewhere?

[lightguy06222]

Posted: 1/23/07 at 12:02am

Morrible created the cyclone WITH INTENTION of picking up this random ass house, and flying it into their world, and droppin it on this chick in order to capture elphaba... it was done completely with purpose...

are we happy now? i put it in a language we can ALL understand, and drop this damn thread!

[StageManager2]

Posted: 1/23/07 at 12:32am

Very condescending, lightguy06222. You think it makes you "cool" to bash WICKED and to talk down to its demographic audience? If this thread bothers you so much, ignore it and do everyone a favor and don't post.

Updated On: 1/23/07 at 12:32 AM

[RentBoy86]

Posted: 1/23/07 at 12:48am

I'm not really sure how the "two worlds" thing is a "gaping plot hole." I would consider the "magic powers" to be a birth defect. Which could happen when you mix someone from "another world."

My real problem with the show is why dont Boq and Fieyro have a song? They should have a duet or at least their own little mini-solos to sing about the girls they love.

[Liverpool]

Posted: 1/23/07 at 1:07am

Boq sings to nessa in the nightclub song (sorry its been about a year since I've heard any of the songs so i can't remember the song)



"are we happy now? i put it in a language we can ALL understand, and drop this damn thread!"


Pipe down jack ass. Why don't you spend a little time on the bench.

[Kringas]

Posted: 1/23/07 at 9:30am

i'm a child of both worlds & i cant hardly do nuthin.

At least you avoided that pesky green skin, n69n.

[WickedGeek28]

Posted: 1/23/07 at 9:45am

You guys are looking far to into it. It's a simple entertaining show. If you think about it it becomes crap. :)

[bella cantato]

Posted: 1/23/07 at 10:40am

RentBoy- I think the reason it becomes a "plot hole" is because it sort of just came out of nowhere at the end. "Oh by the way, she's a child of two worlds which means she has magic powers."

A way to avoid this would have been to mention somewhere- anywhere- but particularly the beginning- that a child of two worlds would have magic powers because blah blah blah. Some sort of foreshadowing, so that it didn't come out of nowhere. An insinuation or something would have prevented it. I'm not saying that the "logic" if it doesn't work- only that they need to introduce it somehow, before the very end.

Does that make sense?

Updated On: 1/23/07 at 10:40 AM

[alexworks2hard]

Posted: 2/1/07 at 2:17pm

1) Morrible summoned the tornado after she and the wizzard spoke with Glinda who sudgested they pretend to put Nessa in danger in order to get Elphaba out of hiding.Morrible and the wizard decide perhaps they should do more then "pretend" she is in danger. It's my understanding that Morrible knew she'd do something with the tornado but she didn't percisely plan to pick up a house in Kanasas, bring it over the rainbow and drop it on Nessa.

2) Elphaba didn't want to kidnap Dorothy she just wanted the shoes and Dorothy was being a stubborn simpleton. Elphy only wanted the shoes because it was all she had that once belonged to her dead sister. Elphy is very sentimental she holds on to her mother's green bottle in teh same way she plans to hold on to the shoes. The shoes are a particularly symbolic item because they were a gift from their adoring father to his dearest Nessa Rose. That day he gave them to Nessa he neglected to egknowledge his love for his first daughter by giving her a gift or even an embrace. She wants the shoes also for safety's sake. When Elphy (in the book it was Glinda) put a spell on the shoes it led to disaster. Elphy wants those shoes in order to keep them from causing harm directly or indirectly to anyone else.
The "point of the play" wasn't to make Elphaba a sympathetic charicter, the play tells the story of a complicated charicter and the polotics she attempts to understand and correct and in the process of that story telling, the play communicates to it's audience a great deal about our own society.

3) It's never completely clear how Elphy was born with a natural inclination towards magic. The easiest explanation was that it was a combination of the mysterious bottle of liquid, Elphy's studious and passionate nature, Madame Morrible's mantipulative teachings and the spell book which no one else but Elphy ever studied hard enough to be able to understand.

4) I think Glinda's sudden authority over the ruling governmant was pretty silly. It used Saturday cartoon logic which only a child would see as unfaulted.

5) Glinda became Glinda the Good for quite calculated reasons. Once Elphy escaped Madam Morrible (under the authority of the wizard) made her move to take advantage of Glinda's personal weaknesses by using them to contol Glinda. Glinda hungers for adoration so Glinda is shaped into a public figure whose job it is to pasify the masses and attain their undying affection so that they will blindly believe anything they are told. The best way to control Glinda is to promote her. Her addiction to celebraty makes it easy to manipulate her.

6) People don't hate Elphy because of the monkeys. They never have a logical reason and that's sort of the point. Remember the wizard saying that he felt it important to come up with an enemy for everyone to hate so that they can be more easily maipulated as a whole? The masses are told that Elphy is "the enemy" and that she is up to no good. First they were told Animals were the evil now they are told it's Elphaba and the Animals. They are told that the fight against the "Animals' Right Campaign" is being weilded by a foolish mean Elphaba who is nothing but a rotten evil wicked witch of a woman. The people worship the wizard all the more because afterall without him they wouldn't even know what danger they were in and they believe he is the only one who can save them from this percieved danger. Can anyone honestly say they can turn on CNN and not see the exact same manipulation occuring everyday?


Someone asked why there is a scene in which the wizard and Elphaba polka dance. That moment takes place when the wizard is making his case for why it is Elphaba should follow his lead and work with him as a team to "lead the people" using their "power" and "influence". The dancing was just a quick way to communicate who ethusiastic the wizard was about his plan. It was a cheezy way of showing how he thought he could manipulate and use Elphaba as easily as he did everyone else around him.


Other questions people had:


Why is Elphy green? (according to the play)
Her mother drank the mysterious liquid from the green bottle the wizard gave her the night the two of them concieved Elphaba. Alternatively many people believe she is green for the same reasons they believe some people are born with only one leg, etc. - - God has a reason for everything. Afterall, if Elphy wasn't green would she have been able to relate to the plight of the Animals in such a way that it would have led her to uncover the wizards terrible plan? Would she have otherwise known that percieved wonder and mystery don't nessesarily mean magic is involved? If she weren't green wouldn't she have grown up believing the wizard to be a powerful Lord and wouldn't she have led her people follow him? (her father was a political and relgious figure head)


FosseForever3 - "let's please not compare a war in which young men and women are fighting every day to protect us - to Wicked plot holes. It is insensitive and a bit rude."
What is the point in ever reading and watching stories if you think it offensive to ever compare the tales to your own world? Your logic says that art should mearly exist to look pretty above the couch. Yikes! Since the dawn of time the theater was been used as a means for delivering messages, usually political. People write, drawn, paint and dance to communicate their emotions and opinions to others. Standing on a soap box lecturing has never been as effective as creating an artwork which captures the imagination of an audience. I cannot imagine what plays are safe for someone using your logic. The only play I can even think of which may not risk hurting your sensitivities might be Mousetrap by Agatha Christie but then again there are two lines in it about Commies so never mind. Maybe you are better off staying hom and watching Full House.


Liverpool - "when did this show get so hard to follow? Seriously, you have that many questions?"
WickedGeek28 "You guys are looking far to into it. It's a simple entertaining show. If you think about it it becomes crap. :)"
The play dops the ball in a few areas and audience members who are absorbed in the play and it's story absolutely find themselves stepping back and wondering about a few things. Audience members who don't, either aren't paying close attention, or are asking so little of the play that a logical script is of little consiquence. There is nothing wrong with examining a play in depth. Generally the only people who argue against that point are 10th graders arguing with their literature Professors.


lightguy06222 - "are we happy now? i put it in a language we can ALL understand, and drop this damn thread! "
Are you addicted to posting on every message board thread and that compulsion forces you to have to tollerate this threat and respond despite your loathing for it? Since when it a thread on message board somewhere on the internet such an invasive presence for you? I don't mean to blow your mind with my brilliant logic here but seriously, if you don't like a posting or the amount of responces it recieves then just stop reading. It's amazingly that simple. The web is fantastic, if you don't like it you can just turn off your computer.



I enjoyed the play but felt that adding a few more details from the book wouldn't have hurt or legthened the play too much.

In the stage verion it made no sense why the wizard suddenly wanted to see Elphy. Did he hear she was getting an A+ in magic class and just wanted to shake her hand? Why couldn't the script follow a bit more closely to the book and have Elphy be the one begging to see the wizard after learning of his terrible plan to clense the world of Animals?

Why did the play make Elphaba so much weaker than in the book? In the play the underlying reason she wanted to meet the wizard was so should could ask him to change her skin color. In the book Elphy was less vulnerable about her skin. She related to the talking Animals bcause of it. They had no regret about who they were and they felt that because they weren't like the general population they had a clearer understanding of the world which one could only attain by being so very different. Elphy learned very early on in life to be tougher and stronger. Among the many reasons she had to become tougher inside was because she had to do everything she could to avoid crying. When she cried her eyes would burn and her cheeks would painfully blister. Simply mentioning this fact alone would have communicated Elphy's charicter so much more clearly and quickly. In the play Madam Morrible tells Elphy to stay out of the rain and boom, that's it for understanding the whole water thing. I know that everyone in the audience has seen The Wizard or Oz of read it but still I believe this was a script opportunity lost.

I thought that Elphy's predisposition towards accademics should have been emphasized more since that is the only reason that she is able to read the spell book and no one else can. Elphy was green, a geek and didn't care what people thought about her. Those are the reasons she stuck out. Without the nerdy aspect it made no sense why she and no one else could read the book. That's why so many people are stumped over the question over what powers was Elphy born with. The answer was: none, she just worked exceptionally hard at Shiz.

I ddn't understand Madam Morrible's ethusiasm for Elphy in the play. I suppose the play's Elphy had to be less sharp than in the book because otherwise she would have seen thru Madam Morrible's butt kissing and too soon discovered the wizard's plan to use her to create and control an imaginary enemy which would stegthen the wizards hold on the people.

I thought Glinda's script stole the show. It was quarky and the audience seemed to eat it up. Perhaps I'm grumpy but I preferred her charicter in the book. She always wanted to be popular but could never quite get there because she was of the lower upper class and the popular girls were of the upper upper. I know putting all the class, race, and religious struggles from the book in show show would have been too much but it was the main motivation of Glinda and it facilitated her friendship with Elphy. Replacing that with Elphy not knowing a mean gift was a joke and in return getting Glinda into a magic class.. it all seemed to come up short. Glinda never could reach full popular status which is why she was so desparate to be seen as loathing Elphy. Glinda's failed attempts at being seen as a full member of the popular crowd was what bonded the two girls together. She was focussed on controlling people's perceptions of her and ballencing that need with her deep hunger for a true friend. This is why she was so suseptable to Madam Morrible's manipulations.

I had no issues with the refrences to the Clock Dragon because I read the book, but the audience members around me all were asking one another what it was about. Clearly their confusion was distracting them. It seemed a shame to me. I think it would have been better to have just left out the whole thing all together.

I'm greatful there weren't more refrences to the Oz movie than there were. The audience responded so jubilantly whenever a costume or verbal refrence was made to the movie version of The Wizard of Oz. It would have been a major distraction if Dorothy appeared on stage.

Elphaba's song with Fieyro seemed to drop the ball. The music was so much more animated than the sequence on stage. Two minutes is a long time for an American audience to watch two actors kneel motionless one aother.

I enjoyed the play I really did but Elphaba is one of my favorate literary charicters and I was hungry to be blown away by her on stage. Glinda's silliness stole the show. Elphy's actress had a great voice but something was lacking. The actress had a far stronger stage presense in the begining then she seemed to have just somehow lost it partway through the first half of the show.

[StageManager2]

Posted: 2/1/07 at 2:34pm

Wow! How long did it take you to write all that?

[LittleFish8386]

Posted: 2/1/07 at 2:52pm

I don't have to think that far into it for it to be crap. It's a silly show with elementary writing that appeals to the general public. The show is filled with stereotyping and countless cliches. It is what it is. It's not written to be a show that makes you think. Its purpose is to entertain you. The book was very interesting and explained thing a lot more indepth then the musical does. Here they are just trying to make Elphaba the likeable outcast to appeal to tween girls who "don't fit in." It IS bad writing...and I think we can all agree on that.



Nessa....Confessa...really?

[StageManager2]

Posted: 2/1/07 at 4:23pm

He doesn't say "confessa" (you twit).

Uh- Nessa
I've got something to confess, a
Reason why, well-
Why I asked you here tonight

The "A" is part of the next thought.

[lightguy06222]

Posted: 2/5/07 at 10:58am

wayyy to much time on your hands

Posted: 2/5/07 at 11:21am

"Have you ever lost a sister AND a father in the same day? I'm not saying I have, (and thank god for that), but I can only imagine the horror and pain a person would go through. Sure, Nessa was a little bitch, and her father hated her, but they were Elphaba's family. It would be enough to drive anyone crazy. She wanted those shoes to remember her family. It may seem irrational, but there are a lot of irrational things people do when they lose people they love. To me, it shows that Elphaba may have been starting to lose it by this point. She has already admitted defeat, (in "No Good Deed") and all she wants are these shoes as a memory. To me, it just develops the slight unraveling of her character."

She didn't lose them both on the same day, did she? I mean wasn't the father dead a long time? And how long does it take to become a bitch/witch? Probably a year.

"I had no issues with the refrences to the Clock Dragon because I read the book, but the audience members around me all were asking one another what it was about. Clearly their confusion was distracting them. It seemed a shame to me. I think it would have been better to have just left out the whole thing all together."

Since they cut out so much of the book, the clock maes no sense. But why did they still put it there? To distract people? To confuse BWW users?

[landryjames2]

Posted: 2/5/07 at 12:29pm

I don't think it is an accurate statement to blanketly say that we all know Wicked the Musical is bad writing (referring to the book of the musical). Just because there may or may not be some plot holes, doesn't mean that some of it isn't very sharp and clever. A lot of people just say it isn't good writing because it's not Kushner or T. Williams, or Wilde?? It's a family fantasty musical, for heaven's sake--and it is decent writing for that.

And don't forget that Winnie Holzman (writer of the book) is one of the greatest TV script writers of recent time (Once and Again, My So Called Life)