best12bars "offended" by PRODUCERS movie...- Page 3

[best12bars]

Posted: 12/21/05 at 9:53am

Thanks, as always, to all who weighed in. I appreciate hearing other people's perspectives. I've said my piece on the subject and have nothing more to add to it...

...but as far as the film itself, I enjoyed it quite a bit. I agree with you, SamIAm, about the "throw-back" to old musical films. Susan's idols are Gene Kelly and Stanley Donen (as she's said many times), and this is basically her valentine to their efforts as MGM musical directors/choreographers extraordinaire. She locks the camera off on long shots, for lengthy takes and lets the talent "shine." I wonder if most people know this is what she's doing. I've heard some critics (who at least should understand her point of reference) say, "she planted the camera dead center in row F and just shot the stage show." Hardly, but none of them seemed to get her style and approach. It's fine if they don't like it. That's their prerogative as critics, but to "miss" the Kelly/Donen film technique leads me to believe these critics have never taken a film class. Lovely. I personally thought it was kinda neat to see someone as talented as Stroman try to make her own version of "Singin' in the Rain" in 2005. To see what that would look like on a big, modern screen. It felt both thrilling and out-of-place to me. I imagine most audiences will wonder why it seems so "different" to them. But the crowd I was with was laughing their butts off and didn't seem to care. They were mostly an older crowd too (surprisingly).

Updated On: 12/21/05 at 09:53 AM

[MasterLcZ]

Posted: 12/21/05 at 10:25am

Stroman may have intended the film to be an homage to Kelly & Donen, but her more conservative staging of the musical numbers recalls Seymour Felix and LeRoy Prinz instead. She may not have created another SINGIN' IN THE RAIN, but it's wonderful that THE PRODUCERS is the ON THE AVENUE and COLLEGE SWING of 2005.

Updated On: 12/21/05 at 10:25 AM

[best12bars]

Posted: 12/21/05 at 10:28am

Yeah, I'd say Pasternak Unit more than Freed Unit, personally.

I don't know that she literally tried to make the movie ala Kelly & Donen, I just know that she has said many times that these two are her idols. It makes sense that she would attempt it knowing that. I have mixed feelings about her results, but mostly positive.

Everything old is new again!

Updated On: 12/21/05 at 10:28 AM

[MasterLcZ]

Posted: 12/21/05 at 10:44am

I think the Pasternack and Jack Cummings units at MGM have been MUCH underrated, 2bars. They may not have the "art" of the Freed films, but they are always unpretentious and delightful, with snappy stories, great casts and fun scores. And if "Uncle Joe" had been in charge of more of Judy's films, she might have never left MGM.

Updated On: 12/21/05 at 10:44 AM

[best12bars]

Posted: 12/21/05 at 11:13am

I LOVE the Pasternak movies! It wasn't meant to be a slam.

They were more straight-forward and less "daring" than the Freed Unit. But not (necessarily) less entertaining, by any means.

[MasterLcZ]

Posted: 12/21/05 at 11:22am

I know you weren't slamming them, sweetie! I was just agreeing with you!

[best12bars]

Posted: 12/21/05 at 11:30am

Cool. Interestingly enough, I met LeRoy Prinz when I visited Los Angeles (prior to moving out here). He was the nicest man! He had dance-directed a very dear (old) friend of mine at Warner Bros. in a musical called "My Wild Irish Rose" back in 1947. She played Lillian Russell in the film. But I felt like I was meeting royalty with him, so I was a bit of a young geek at the time.

Now I'm an older and wiser geek.

Updated On: 12/21/05 at 11:30 AM

[SamIAm]

Posted: 12/21/05 at 2:31pm

"...I enjoyed it quite a bit. I agree with you, SamIAm, about the "throw-back" to old musical films. Susan's idols are Gene Kelly and Stanley Donen (as she's said many times), and this is basically her valentine to their efforts as MGM musical directors/choreographers extraordinaire. She locks the camera off on long shots, for lengthy takes and lets the talent "shine." I wonder if most people know this is what she's doing. I've heard some critics (who at least should understand her point of reference) say, "she planted the camera dead center in row F and just shot the stage show." Hardly, but none of them seemed to get her style and approach. It's fine if they don't like it. That's their prerogative as critics, but to "miss" the Kelly/Donen film technique leads me to believe these critics have never taken a film class. Lovely. I personally thought it was kinda neat to see someone as talented as Stroman try to make her own version of "Singin' in the Rain" in 2005. To see what that would look like on a big, modern screen. It felt both thrilling and out-of-place to me. I imagine most audiences will wonder why it seems so "different" to them"

12bars: I agree that most of the critics really didn't get it. But then the days of the film and theater critics being EDUCATED in their craft are long gone and I doubt that most of these people ever saw an old fashioned musical on screen in a movie theater.

Having said that, I also think that Stroman, as a Hollywood outsider, was bound to come under some criticism. But, my overall opinion of 'what went wrong here' with the critics being out of sync...is they just didn't GET what the creative team was trying to do...nor did they remind themselves that this is MEL BROOKS we are talking about. His stuff is always larger than life and in your face.

Go figure. Whatever happens, I hope the audiences win out. All the people I've spoken to who have seen the film have enjoyed it. It is not perfect, but it is far from a debacle!

[DBillyP]

Posted: 12/21/05 at 2:36pm

"Well, they obviously cut it, because it was offensive to African-American audiences, who (most likely) didn't get the Show Boat spoof reference ..."

Implying that the African-American audience would not get the joke as opposed to the audience in general not getting the joke? Hmmm ... I am trying not to be offended by that assertion ...

[best12bars]

Posted: 12/21/05 at 4:43pm

DBillyP --- That WAS worded strangely, and didn't reflect my feelings. I meant to say that MOST audience members (of any background) wouldn't get the Show Boat spoof reference. My apologies to you and all.

But I do think that this bit would be offiensive to African-American audiences in particular. Most audiences of ANY background wouldn't get the Show Boat connection, though.

[munkustrap178]

Posted: 12/21/05 at 4:49pm

People are offended by ANYTHING these days.

[BSoBW2]

Posted: 12/21/05 at 4:50pm

I thought the black Irish was in the movie?

[best12bars]

Posted: 12/21/05 at 5:34pm

For some reason when I typed "Show Boat connection" I can't get the song "Rainbow Connection" of my head now.

I'm doomed!

SoBW2 --- According to others here it was cut. But if it WAS in there, I didn't catch it either.

[SamIAm]

Posted: 12/21/05 at 7:02pm

Yes, it is true. Both the black irish joke and the accountant debiting and crediting were cut. But the black joke they ADDED was, as Masterlcz said, perhaps more offensive (if more subtle).

During the prisoners of love sequence, Max jumps up on stage to continue rehearsal and encounters a black prisoner attempting, unsuccesfully, to sing in time with the music. He calls the prisoner back to rehearsal and asks 'what are you in for?'...for those who did not see the movie yet...I won't spoil to punch line.

Suffice it to say, the new joke is probably more offensive than the ones they cut. So, again I say that it is hard to tell WHY the black jokes got cut.

[misto625]

Posted: 12/23/05 at 1:22am

I am trying to understand the person who said Robert Fowler was out. This is wrong because Robert does appear in the movie. Additionally, he does have an understudy- Kimberly Hester would do the parts if he wasn't there, just like Francesca Harper and James Brown III on tour.

[ghostlight2]

Posted: 12/30/05 at 2:21am

It was a joke, misto625. Contrary to what you may have heard, I can assure you that on Broadway, when Robert Fowler is out, those two lines are cut for that performance. Kimberly Hester does not understudy him.

Or are you pulling my leg?

[leefowler]

Posted: 12/30/05 at 3:53am

As I've said, the two "black" jokes were cut out to shorten the running time, as they were easy cuts,both being extraneous to the plot, and there was a mandate to cut down the running length. They were both put on film, though not used. I'm connected with the show and movie, so I know this to be a fact, and I was there when these decisions were there. The fact that I've posted this before, and that everyone's ignored it, shows that people here just want to believe what they want to believe. This is a place for gossip and speculation, and little else of worth.

And now someone's going to post, "well I THINK THEY CUT IT BECAUSE OF THE PC POLICE!" Whatever. You go, girl

[Fosse76]

Posted: 12/30/05 at 11:13am

Those two "cuts" total what? 30 seconds of time?

[ghostlight2]

Posted: 12/30/05 at 1:58pm

It isn't much, fosse, but it all adds up.

"Everyone" hasn't ignored your post, leefowler (I for one am inclined to believe you), but with all due respect, do you believe everything anyone on this board says? I know for a fact that misto625's assertion that Kimberly Hester is Robert Fowler's understudy to be incorrect. So someone doubts you? Big deal.

Why should it bother you that others don't believe you on a board that is largely for gossip, if you have the real deal?

[lildogs]

Posted: 12/30/05 at 2:09pm

That's the problem, leefowler, we don't know if you're telling the truth or not, though why would you lie? But then people do alot of things here I don't understand, so there you go. Just put your two cents in and let people believe what they want to believe...

[touchmeinthemorning]

Posted: 12/30/05 at 2:27pm

Clearly cut because it was a musical theatre joke that doesn't translate on film.

[best12bars]

Posted: 12/30/05 at 2:48pm

Wow, I thought this thread was dead and gone.

leefowler---I actually DID address your post... before you even posted it. I wrote earlier that even if someone directly connected with the film were to come forward, they would say that the cuts in question were made for time and time alone. You didn't disappoint me or surprise me, and I had nothing further to add to my original thoughts on the subject after reading your post.

I'm not chiming in again today to call you a "liar," in fact I do believe that YOU believe in your reasons behind the editorial cuts. However, you use as your explanation of the choices made that they were looking to remove anything not having to do with the plot or character advancement due to running time issues, and that's why these two stereotypical black jokes went "bye-bye." ...when so many other stereotypical jokes remained.

I could probably hand you a list of close to a hundred jokes that ARE in the final edit that have absolutely nothing to do with plot or character advancement. I also agree that the total running time for these two jokes combined was less than 30 seconds (including the singing section).

The only “facts” here are that the jokes were filmed and then removed. The rest of this, including your own posted assessment, is based on subjective information and personal perception as to the reasons why.

[leefowler]

Posted: 12/30/05 at 3:15pm

Best 12 bars...

Not to blow my cover, but I'm Glen Kelly. I worked very closely with Mel and Stro and Tom on the show. I was working on Spamalot during the filming of the movie, but I worked on the movie post-production. There was nothing cut from this movie based on political correctness. Everything I write on this subject is fact. Everything you write is speculation. If you'd like to ask me any questions about this subject, feel free to contact me. Or, you could just keep guessing and assuming. Which, of course, is always more fun.

[ghostlight2]

Posted: 12/30/05 at 3:30pm

Wow.

Hostile much, Mr Kelly?

[lildogs]

Posted: 12/30/05 at 3:32pm

Now, now, Mr. Kelly, there's no need to be so defensive. best12 has a perfectly legit and understandable objection, and he may still be right--the production team may not have consciously chosen to cut the jokes because of race sensitivity, but his point remains: it IS more acceptable to laugh at the homos than it is the black guy. The fact that broadcast TV censors the n word but not the f word (fag I mean) is the most telling fact of all. It reminds me of working for a po-dunk summer stock company that objected to some of the sexuality in Kiss Me Kate, but had no qualms with using derogatory language against gays in "Cuckoo's Nest."

I'm sure you are being honest in your assessment of the editing process, but I think best12 raises a valid question, though in these SPECIFIC instances he might be overreaching a bit. But I think his overall thesis has merit...so to speak...