Anais Mitchell blames the patriarchy for people wanting perfect rhymes in theatre songs. Seriously.- Page 3

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 12/12/19 at 10:30am

darquegk said: "The pop single version from James Taylor's "Flag" album has a much better lyric there: "come on, sucker/come back, brother trucker." It's both appropriate to the song's narrative and a very clever pun/euphemism."

Thank you, darque, I didn't know the pop version. I wonder which came first. Taylor's FLAG came out a year after WORKING and I am tempted to suspect Taylor wanted a rhyme that would make the song radio-friendly--which is not a criticism, since, as you point out, he actually improved the lyric whatever the reason for the change.

But, of course, he may have written the lyric at any time before it was sung on Broadway. The dates of the two albums is no proof of writing sequence.

ETA I think Taylor's "Millworker"--also on FLAG--is the best song in WORKING and my favorite Taylor song ever. I prefer Bette Midler's cover on her THIGHS AND WHISPERS album.

Updated On: 12/12/19 at 10:30 AM

[henrikegerman]

Posted: 12/12/19 at 5:12pm

reminds me of the notion that architectural symmetry is homosexual

[Almira]

Posted: 12/15/19 at 6:39pm

I guess that means Betty Comden, Lynn Athens, Jeanine Tesori, Amanda Green, Dorothy Fields, Carolyn Leigh are all dupes to the patriarchy.

Mitchell is a lazy lyricist who pretty much insulted the hard work, dedication to craft, and achievements of these superior theatre writers.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 12/15/19 at 10:06pm

Almira said: "I guess that means Betty Comden, Lynn Athens, Jeanine Tesori, Amanda Green, Dorothy Fields, Carolyn Leigh are all dupes to the patriarchy.

Mitchell is a lazy lyricist who pretty much insulted the hard work, dedication to craft, and achievements of these superior theatre writers."

I'm not sure that's fair, Almira. Those raised on pop music often find perfect rhyme schemes "artificial" sounding and prefer the relaxed quality of near rhymes. I'm not among them, but I listened to show tunes from the time my family bought our first Hi-Fi.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 12/15/19 at 10:11pm

henrikegerman said: "reminds me of the notion thatarchitectural symmetry ishomosexual"

As opposed to what? Wasn't all architecture essentially symmetrical until the invention of modern building materials? Minus steel and counterweights, asymmetrical buildings tend to fall down.

I'm genuinely curious at what strikes me as such an odd notion! (I'm not suggesting you invented it, henrik.) The Parthenon, pyramids, Pantheon, gothic cathedrals, et al., are almost all symmetrical to my eye.

Updated On: 12/15/19 at 10:11 PM

[HogansHero]

Posted: 12/15/19 at 10:48pm

@Almira, do you also think prose is what folks to lazy to write poetry put on paper?

Silly and ridiculous.Why can't we stop imposing our personal tastes on others? It's an awful pathology, and it is rampant here.

[joevitus]

Posted: 12/15/19 at 11:18pm

GavestonPS said: "henrikegerman said: "reminds me of the notion thatarchitectural symmetry ishomosexual"

As opposed to what? Wasn't all architectureessentially symmetrical until the invention of modern building materials? Minus steel and counterweights, asymmetrical buildings tend to fall down.

I'm genuinely curious at what strikes me as such an odd notion!(I'm not suggesting you invented it, henrik.) The Parthenon, pyramids, Pantheon, gothic cathedrals, et al., are almost all symmetrical to my eye."

It's funny the things conservatives will say. At my Catholic college I attended in the early '90's, there was an argument going around that abstract art led to Nazism (which is, of course, beautifully illogical because the Nazis considered abstract art decadent and banned it). People always want to see whatever disturbs them as a product of whomever they find disturbing. I've not doubt that homophobes of the Frank Lloyd Wright era would ascribe architecture that disturbed them to gays. *sigh*

[SeanMartin2]

Posted: 12/16/19 at 8:26am

A Director said: Anais Mitchell won the 2019 Tony Award for Best Score for HADESTOWN. The show won Best Musical."

HADESTOWN is, as they say, a nice piece of work. Nothing earthshaking in the grand scheme of things, and I say that as one who enjoyed watching it. But once it closes, it will probably disappear without a trace.

The fact that it won Best Musical? So did TWO GENTLEMEN OF VERONA. Anyone planning a revival of that?

[HogansHero]

Posted: 12/16/19 at 8:58am

Well, I cannot predict the future but Two Gents was revived in '05, and is the first place that Renee Elise Goldsberry and Oscar Isaac made an impression.But in any event, the fact is most best musicals are not revived, including quite a few that some here seem to think are major. Moreover, I certainly imagine someone is planning on reviving it someday, just as Hadestown will be done after its time on the main stem. But spew what nonsense you want. 

[SeanMartin2]

Posted: 12/16/19 at 10:45am

HogansHero said: "Well, I cannot predict the future but Two Gents was revived in '05, and is the first place that Renee Elise Goldsberry and Oscar Isaac made an impression.But in any event, the fact is most best musicals are not revived, including quite a few that some here seem to think are major. Moreover, I certainly imagine someone is planning on reviving it someday, just as Hadestown will be done after its time on the main stem. But spew what nonsense you want."

I will, thank you.

Moving on.

[Someone in a Tree2]

Posted: 12/16/19 at 10:54am

Disagreeing vehemently with Sean Martin2.
I find HADESTOWN one of the truly great and sublime works of musical theater in the last decade, and I couldn’t wipe the smile off my face watching it, despite Mitchell’s insistence on choosing false rhymes throughout where perfect rhymes would have made me smile even more.

[SeanMartin2]

Posted: 12/16/19 at 11:39am

Someone in a Tree2 said: "Disagreeing vehemently with Sean Martin2.
I find HADESTOWN one of the truly great and sublime works of musical theater in the last decade, and I couldn’t wipe the smile off my face watching it, despite Mitchell’s insistence on choosing false rhymes throughout where perfect rhymes would have made me smile even more."

And this is precisely why Baskin Robbins sells 31 different flavours. I'm glad you enjoyed it, really. I did as well, but I didnt find it all the memorable. Different strokes, as they say.

Updated On: 12/16/19 at 11:39 AM

[joevitus]

Posted: 12/16/19 at 11:41am

Someone in a Tree2 said: "Disagreeing vehemently with Sean Martin2.
I find HADESTOWN one of the truly great and sublime works of musical theater in the last decade, and I couldn’t wipe the smile off my face watching it, despite Mitchell’s insistence on choosing false rhymes throughout where perfect rhymes would have made me smile even more."

I think this is great, but many people in 1968 said the same thing about Hair (which, full disclosure, I quite like but has not ever really entered the canon). There was a rock musical called Joy in the early 70's, and one of the critics quoted on the album cover says "I'll be talking about Joy forever?" How many people here ever heard of Joy?

[HogansHero]

Posted: 12/16/19 at 11:51am

joevitus said: "Hair (which, full disclosure, I quite like but has not ever really entered the canon)." 

Could you define this canon of which you speak? Sounds like even more nonsense talking.

 

[joevitus]

Posted: 12/16/19 at 12:07pm

HogansHero said: "joevitus said: "Hair(which, full disclosure, I quite like but has not ever really entered the canon)."

Could you define this canon of which you speak? Sounds like even more nonsense talking.

"

Well you're in a friendly mood today. I mean there are shows that are performed all over all the time--or at least for a good many decades. They get revived. They get performed by regional theaters. When the rights become available, they are done in schools over and over. A list would include: Oklahoma! Hello,Dolly! My Fair Lady, Guys and Dolls, among others. They form a kind of canon of Broadway shows that if you grow up in America, you are likely to encounter. Then there are other shows that are huge hits when they premiere but more or less disappear from memory except for a few ardent theatergoers (basically the case with Two Gentlemen, one could also point to Bubbling Brown Sugar). There are some shows in between these two extremes (The Wiz might fit in here--never a successful Broadway revival, and you don't see many professional productions mounted, but lots of churches do it, and the movie and NBC Live versions have kept the score sorta familiar outside cast album aficionado circles).

[SeanMartin2]

Posted: 12/16/19 at 12:17pm

joevitus said: "HogansHero said: "joevitus said: "Hair(which, full disclosure, I quite like but has not ever really entered the canon)."

Could you define this canon of which you speak? Sounds like even more nonsense talking.

"

Well you're in a friendly mood today. I mean there are shows that are performed all over all the time--or at least for a good many decades. They get revived. They get performed by regional theaters. When the rights become available, they are done in schools over and over. A list would include:Oklahoma! Hello,Dolly!My Fair Lady,Guys and Dolls, among others. They form a kind of canon of Broadway shows that if you grow up in America, you are likely to encounter. Then there are other shows that are huge hits when they premiere but more or less disappear from memory except for a few ardent theatergoers (basically the case with Two Gentlemen, one could also point to Bubbling Brown Sugar). There are some shows in between these two extremes (The Wiz might fit in here--never a successful Broadway revival, and you don't see many professional productions mounted, but lots of churches do it, and the movie and NBC Live versions have kept the score sorta familiar outside cast album aficionado circles)."

Indeed. It all comes down to a question of familiarity with the material. OKLAHOMA has been a regular standby for high schools for decades, as has (unfortunately ) ANNIE. People know these titles, so theatre companies are willing to take the financial risk on mounting them. 

Will HADESTOWN get that kind of nod? Seriously, I doubt it. Anything's possible, of course, but again I doubt it. And let me repeat, lest Hogan dump on this comment as well, I enjoyed it when I saw it. The cast does a great job. It has some great staging moments. But beyond that? Not much, folks.

[joevitus]

Posted: 12/16/19 at 12:38pm

LOL to the Annie reference.

I really don't know if Hadestown will become forgotten or a staple. I don't have a dog in that fight, either, but pretending there aren't some musicals that most people would recognize while there are others that were big for a few years and then forgotten isn't some daringly controversial statement.

[HogansHero]

Posted: 12/16/19 at 1:43pm

joevitus said: "I mean there are shows that are performed all over all the time--or at least for a good many decades. They get revived. They get performed by regional theaters. When the rights become available, they are done in schools over and over. A list would include:Oklahoma! Hello,Dolly!My Fair Lady,Guys and Dolls, among others. They form a kind of canon of Broadway shows that if you grow up in America, you are likely to encounter. Then there are other shows that are huge hits when they premiere but more or less disappear from memory except for a few ardent theatergoers (basically the case with Two Gentlemen, one could also point to Bubbling Brown Sugar). There are some shows in between these two extremes (The Wiz might fit in here--never a successful Broadway revival, and you don't see many professional productions mounted, but lots of churches do it, and the movie and NBC Live versions have kept the score sorta familiar outside cast album aficionado circles)."

Well yes, but you said Hair, and that's what I was responding to. It fits right in the bullseye of your definition, which is why I asked.

 

[haterobics]

Posted: 12/16/19 at 1:50pm

Wouldn't most songs not offer a sufficient refractory period for rhymes to be male orgasms?

[joevitus]

Posted: 12/16/19 at 2:12pm

HogansHero said: "joevitus said: "I mean there are shows that are performed all over all the time--or at least for a good many decades. They get revived. They get performed by regional theaters. When the rights become available, they are done in schools over and over. A list would include:Oklahoma! Hello,Dolly!My Fair Lady,Guys and Dolls, among others. They form a kind of canon of Broadway shows that if you grow up in America, you are likely to encounter. Then there are other shows that are huge hits when they premiere but more or less disappear from memory except for a few ardent theatergoers (basically the case with Two Gentlemen, one could also point to Bubbling Brown Sugar). There are some shows in between these two extremes (The Wiz might fit in here--never a successful Broadway revival, and you don't see many professional productions mounted, but lots of churches do it, and the movie and NBC Live versions have kept the score sorta familiar outside cast album aficionado circles)."

Well yes, but you said Hair, and that's what I was responding to. It fits right in the bullseye of your definition, which is why I asked.

"

No it doesn't. Hair isn't frequently revived. The first Broadway revival flopped, and you didn't see it played anywhere until the late 80's when a few productions came along. There was a successful Broadway revival, but that hasn't made it a staple of regional theaters, let alone high schools or community theaters (for some rather obvious reasons). It's less part of the canon than in that hazy middle ground between totally forgotten and regularly encountered. 

[HogansHero]

Posted: 12/16/19 at 2:51pm

@joevitus OK. We have different impressions regarding Hair being done, but I am fine disagreeing about that now that I understand your position. It could be a separate subject but I am sure we do not want to get Hair mixed up in a discussion of male orgasm now do we?

[joevitus]

Posted: 12/16/19 at 3:43pm

LOL

And as I said, I like Hair.

[bear88]

Posted: 12/16/19 at 6:35pm

It's interesting, actually. I saw the musical, have the cast recording and hadn't really focused on the fact that Anais Mitchell's rhymes generally don't try to be perfect. When I saw the show, I was not too familiar with the songs beforehand, and one advantage of "perfect rhymes" is that it can make it easier for the theatergoer to follow the lyrics. Attending musicals is very different from going to a concert because I often don't know the songs, much less the lyrics, and the lyrics are much more important. I saw a new musical the other day and it reminded me how much I actually pay attention at musicals, if the lyrics are good. 

But I didn't have trouble following the lyrics in Hadestown, so it didn't really cross my mind. I was aware the songs didn't have have rhymes within rhymes that Lin-Manuel Miranda wrote for Hamilton, to use an obvious comparison, but it didn't interfere with my understanding or enjoyment of the performance.

I saw Mitchell's original tweet and didn't really take it all that seriously. From her followup, I don't think she was taking it all that seriously either.

As for Mitchell's imperfect rhymes and the long-term fate of Hadestown in the history of musical theater, I think it's much too soon to say. The show rides its performances, staging and classical simplicity a long way. If the show isn't considered a classic in the future, it won't be because Mitchell didn't write perfect rhymes.

[Charley Kringas Inc]

Posted: 12/17/19 at 12:19pm

I didn't feel like I was getting caught up in false/slant rhymes in Hadestown, either, though it is frustrating in "Wait For Me" when Hermes's first stanza has a perfect AABBCDDE scheme, and then his second stanza is AA[slant]BB[slant]CCDE, before going back to the first scheme in the third stanza. But yeah, the loose rhyming of Hadestown feels organic, as does the obstinately unrhymed Natasha and Pierre - interestingly, though both draw from folk influences, the way they play with rhymes has a different effect. Hadestown is kind of elastic and jazzy, while N&P is an unforgiving assault. Both are rewarding and feel "right" with their overall aesthetic.

On the other hand, while The Book of Mormon has bigger problems, its slant rhymes are so frustrating because its form is overall in the style of the perfectly-rhymed Broadway song, which means the slant rhymes feel like aberrations. A perfect rhyme sets you up for what's coming next, but also confirms what you've just heard, so when the perfect rhyme you're expecting goes awry, you have to revisit the previous line, even as the performer is charging ahead into the next idea.

I'd be curious to know how the female orgasm and male orgasm might differ in how they could be expressed via rhyme form. A perfect rhyme following a standard meter as being a simplistic male orgasm (up down up down cum), vs an imperfect or internal rhyme with a more wending meter. It might be a fun experiment for a song cycle.

[joevitus]

Posted: 12/17/19 at 12:55pm

I guess I'm odd in not busting in to rhyme when I orgasm, so I'll have to leave it up to other men to answer the question.

I think your point about Book of Mormon is very well made. I can't figure out if the bias against perfect rhymes in pop music is that the kind of rhyme itself sounds phony/old fashioned or simply if the desire to connect to everyday experience means finding a work that rhymes perfectly would sacrifice more common/relatable images/words.