Sunday in the park @ studio 54- Page 2

[robbiej]

Posted: 11/9/06 at 4:25pm

'Btw, at least Raul is a Caucasian'

At least? At least??? I'm going to just ignore the implications of those two words and focus on why George does not have to be white.

Sondheim and Lapine never once set out to write the story of Seraut. They wrote this show to explore the creative process and it's toll on the artists. They were inspired by the painting, much more so than the actual man. Of course a black man could play him...much more easily than a black woman could play Dot, since she's represented by two actual paintings that are shown in the production (at least any production I've ever seen).

[moulinrougehk]

Posted: 11/9/06 at 4:35pm

You have completely omitted the fallacy part. As they used this painting, that character have to be George Seurat, or else this is an academic fallacy. George Seurat is a Caucasian. This is a fact. Therefore only a person whose has light colour skin can play this part, unless they whiten the skin of a black guy, but why bother to do this by not choosing a Caucasian?

Btw, what proves that Raul is not a Caucasian? He was born in America. No evidence states that he's a mixed. He's definitely not a black or an Asian or a middle east race. You may guess that he's a Jew, but there are also white Jews in America. Obviously his skin colour is near to white Jew. A white Jew can be consider as white, therefore he's Caucasian.

Updated On: 11/9/06 at 04:35 PM

[Mandi Moo]

Posted: 11/9/06 at 4:45pm

Raul's Cuban.

[folkyboy]

Posted: 11/9/06 at 4:48pm

well at least we know if Roundabout is doing it, they are going to focus mostly on the names in the production before they ever try to offer any merrit to the storyline. if they put a black actor in the role, i wouldn't be surprised...

i thought they said they had decided not to do this show?

[Pippin]

Posted: 11/9/06 at 4:49pm

by your argument, let's say we do assassins. Sondheim didn't take his inspiration from JOhn Wilkes Booth himself. He tackled the issue of the impetus to make these assassinations. so since the show isn't about John Wilkes, he can be cast as black, asian, or latino.

because that makes a whole lotta sense.

[buffyactsing]

Posted: 11/9/06 at 4:50pm

Well, whoever is chosen will probably not be the same height, weight, or have the same features as the real George Seurat either. Really, this is not a show, even based on a real person that would unravel if a person of color were to play the role. George is not Coalhouse Walker Jr, and it should be more important to find the right George than the color of that George's skin.

[Pippin]

Posted: 11/9/06 at 4:52pm

race is completely different than height and weight.


but, if you were doing Barnum, you can't have Tommy Tune play Tom Thumb. agreed?

[moulinrougehk]

Posted: 11/9/06 at 4:56pm

"Raul's Cuban."

Well, I sorry that I didn't know that, and please omit my argument of he as a Caucasian, but my argument of colour still stands. George needed to be played by a person who has light colour skin (note that it's the colour skin that matters, not race).

Updated On: 11/9/06 at 04:56 PM

[Fantabulous428]

Posted: 11/9/06 at 4:58pm

You'd think that in this day and age, artistic merit would be valued more than skin color. I guess not.

And maybe next time you should be better informed before posting your be-all-end-all arrogant rant.

Updated On: 11/9/06 at 04:58 PM

[buffyactsing]

Posted: 11/9/06 at 4:59pm

There is a difference. Tom Thumb is known for being short. When mentioned that's the first thing most people probably think of. Most people, when George Seurat is mentioned probably do not think "he was white". Heck, most people probably haven't a clue what he looked like.

The purpose of Sunday is an exploration of love and art and expression. It's not telling the story of a black/white/purple/green conflict or struggle.

If people are so disturbed that George is being played by a non-caucasion man that they can't appreciate the story than they have a big problem on their own hands.

[BroadwayChica]

Posted: 11/9/06 at 5:01pm

"so since the show isn't about John Wilkes, he can be cast as black, asian, or latino"

John Wilkes could absolutely be cast as black, asian or latino.

And for the record, Raul Esparza, as Mandi said, IS Cuban. So a "latino" DID play George Seurat. His skin may be light, but that does not make him caucasian. Believe what you will, but this is not a race specific role, because it's not meant to be a factual representation of George Seurat's life.

I suppose you're against blind casting in Les Miserables, as well. Because, you know, in 1800s France you didn't see a lot of black police officers or asian street urchins. And how about the many roles in which caucasians have played non-caucasian roles (Jonathan Pryce in Miss Saigon, for example)?

That kind of mentality makes me sick. I think contemporary audiences can suspend disbelief long enough to appreciate an actor's performance regardless of the color of their skin.

[Pippin]

Posted: 11/9/06 at 5:05pm

I'm just saying that it is not historically accurate, and I do place importance in that. I would love to see Stokes or Taye Diggs play Seurat, but it is the same argument les mis. would a black man be in a relationship with Dot in that time period?

if your answer was yes, I think you are a little deluded.


by the way, next week, I'll be performing the role of Coalhouse Walker, Jr. I think my performance will be good enough so as not to be distracting to the audience.

Updated On: 11/9/06 at 05:05 PM

[smartpenguin78]

Posted: 11/9/06 at 5:07pm

The point of the Les Mis reference was that Norm Lewis IS playing Javert in the current production.

[moulinrougehk]

Posted: 11/9/06 at 5:08pm

"If people are so disturbed that George is being played by a non-caucasion man that they can't appreciate the story than they have a big problem on their own hands."

This is unavoidable because will are talking about a real person. Company was once played by Adian Lester. That's fine because Robert is fictionalized. As long as they use the credit of "Sunday in the Island of La Grande Jatte", George Seurat is in the spotlight. Unless they state that the painting George painted in the musical is nothing but fictionalized, they can use a black.

Updated On: 11/9/06 at 05:08 PM

[Pippin]

Posted: 11/9/06 at 5:09pm

I don't care what race plays what in les mis, you know why. the characters aren't based on actual people.

Updated On: 11/9/06 at 05:09 PM

[MargoChanning]

Posted: 11/9/06 at 5:10pm

Well, the thing about Seurat is that, unlike MLK or Malcom X, very few people today -- even art or musical theatre afficianados -- know what he looked like. The character in the musical is a complete fiction -- except for the fact that over a 100 years ago a real French guy named Seurat created the paintings that are on display in the first act, everything else is an invention of James Lapine. We also know little of Seurat's romatic life other than he did have two sons by the same woman -- no daughter named Marie or anything else; we don't even know the second son's name.

The point is, since very few people in the audience have any sort of preconceived notion of what Seurat looked like, casting an actor of color in the role shouldn't be a distration to anyone, unlike casting a white actor as MLK or Malcom X would be. The show has nothing to do with race and there were several black artists and writers living in Paris at the time (to cite one example, the mother of Alexandre Dumas fils was Haitian), so casting the role nontraditionally shouldn't in any way detract from the piece for the vast majority of the audience (I know that I, for one, wouldn't give it a second thought).

[robbiej]

Posted: 11/9/06 at 5:11pm

But don't you see, Raul passes the paper bag test!!! He's light skinned...enough.

Un-f*cking-believeable.

And yeah...I'd have no problem with anyone of any race taking on any role in ASSASSAINS. Of course, then you have to contend with the term 'n* lover', but that's for the production team to deal with. Not me.

Pippin, if you've somehow missed the myraid of threads regarding non-traditional casting and how, when race is not a factor in the actual story being told (ie RAGTIME), then I suggest you do so to find intelligent discourse on the matter.

If SUNDAY... were interested in historical accuracy, then why is the character of Dot there? There's absolutely no proof that a woman named Dot was ever with George Seraut.

As for the 'jungle fever' issue, I say if Shakespeare could write a play in which a black man was married to a white woman, then it could just possibly have happened that a black man could have had an affair with a white woman in turn of last century Paris.

[BroadwayChica]

Posted: 11/9/06 at 5:13pm

Pippin, you're completely missing the point. Colehouse Walker Jr IS a race specific role that can only be played by a black person. His race is vital to the characterization, and as such, blind casting does not apply.

But many roles, and yes, I believe George Seurat in Sunday in the Park with George, are NOT race specific. I'm not advocating 100% blind casting - a black Dot would create a problem, because she is represented in the painting. But the point of the piece, as has been stated numerously, is not a factual, historic representation of Seurat's life, but rather, it's a metaphor for artistic struggles. And that point would not be diminished if a non-caucasian played the role.

The same goes for Les Miserables. Is it historically accurate to have Javert played by a black man? No. But does it in any way detract from the piece as a whole? Of course not. Not in the way that a white Colehouse Jr would, because racial conflicts are VITAL in Ragtime. But because race is never addressed in Les Miserables, or Sunday in the Park with George, then blind casting allows for non caucasian actors to play these roles, regardless of historical accuracy.

[moulinrougehk]

Posted: 11/9/06 at 5:14pm

For the last time, the painting matters everything. If only you could get rid of the painting, everyone can do this role!

[smartpenguin78]

Posted: 11/9/06 at 5:14pm

Does the actor playing Seurat in the show then need to be French?

"I don't care what race plays what in les mis, you know why. the characters are based on actual people." (I am going to assume you meant "are not based on actual people"
But in your examples you have both used "accuracy of historical place" as part of the arguement, in that it would be relevant for you to say a Black man would not have been an Officer in the French Police force therefore...

The key question is "Is the ethnicity of Seurat important to the story?" (As it normally would be for King or Malcolm X)
Seurat is a character, not a historical figure, the only important FACT about him for this show is that he painted SOTIOLGJ, nothing else about him as a person is implied in the script.

[Color and Light]

Posted: 11/9/06 at 5:17pm

I have to agree with RobbieJ and the others who say that skin color shouldn't be taken into account when casting George. Sunday takes such great fictional liberties with Seurat's life that the actor's skin color should be the least of your worries if you're so bloody concerned with keeping the show 'accurate'.

[Mandi Moo]

Posted: 11/9/06 at 5:18pm

For the last time, the painting matters everything. If only you could get rid of the painting, everyone can do this role!

What the hell are you talking about?

[luvtheEmcee]

Posted: 11/9/06 at 5:18pm

I don't really understand the issue about Raúl's ethnicity. For those making arguments about him one way or the other, you do know he's played Seurat before, right? (MoulinRougehk, you must, since it was your avatar.) And he's also played (yes, Caucasian) Jews. Several times. I'm not quite sure how to word this, but I don't think it's really a consideration of what he is or isn't, but for the sake of a pretty superficial industry, it's how he looks. The interesting thing about him is that I don't think people look at him and immediately assume he's Hispanic. There's some article floating around where he says that he gets told all-to-often that he doesn't look Hispanic enough to play ethnic roles. It's like racial/ethnic limbo, or something. Being born in the States (which he was) doesn't make him Caucasian. It's on record *constantly* that he is the child of Cuban immigrants, and he's 100% latino; not white, not mixed, Cuban. What more evidence do you need? Someone asked what proves his ethnicity; what, do you want him to take a DNA test for you? Regardless, though, if you're really hell-bent on having your George traditionally cast and white and all that, his skin is light enough to pass.

I think that it's fair to be of the opinion that George Seurat can't "realistically" be played by a black person because Seurat was a real person and he wasn't black if you really ARE hung up on historically accuracy even though it wouldn't, for the majority of people seeing the show, be a distraction. But to say, for example, that it was okay for Raúl to play Seurat UNTIL you learned that he wasn't in fact by nationality Caucasian, is bullsh*t. That's like saying that the actor has to be French; not LOOK French, because... that's hard to pin down, but be French, for no reason other than "just because." That's crap.

Updated On: 11/9/06 at 05:18 PM

[moulinrougehk]

Posted: 11/9/06 at 5:18pm

"Does the actor playing Seurat in the show then need to be French?"

No, but at least you have to be created as a-look-like to Seurat. As long as you can find someone black who's look like Seurat (with the fact that he has to be whiten because Seurat is white and black definitely doesn't look like white), he can be casted!

[smartpenguin78]

Posted: 11/9/06 at 5:19pm

He doesn't seem to fit exactly into a racial "type" anyway.