Next to Normal?- Page 3

[Roscoe]

Posted: 3/4/08 at 2:42pm

Elphie, yes, they do avoid ever saying exactly what is wrong with the woman, the doctors are pretty clearly mis-diagnosing all over the place.

[East Village]

Posted: 3/4/08 at 3:17pm

I get you Elphie -- and that's essentially what I had to keep telling myself in order to forgive the show's weak points and just enjoy the emotional journey.

If this show was say like Tommy and dealing with surface and spectacle and quite a bit of fantasy then I'd buy what you're saying. But if you ask the audience to commit to a character's deeply personal struggle as well as the reality of this family's drama, then you can't turn around and through something totally fake at them.

As such, it felt like a wonderful drama was taking place on stage -- then suddenly the dentist from Little Shop showed up. Updated On: 3/4/08 at 03:17 PM

[AntonEgo]

Posted: 3/4/08 at 3:55pm

I've never posted on these boards before, but my response to Next to Normal prompted me to see what others were saying about it. I feel I have to defend Roscoe who can't be bad if he likes Buster Keaton. I have never been as disappointed with a show as I was with Next to Normal. Brian d'Arcy James is one of my favorite actors and I had heard such great things about it that I was expecting to love it, but there was a lot wrong with this show. I think it's great if a show wants to deal with mental illness, but it was not done in the best way. As East Village pointed out, it started as a satire, but evolved into a melodrama. The show was all over the place. Also, I would much rather see a show that tackles bi-polar disorder in an honest way without relying on unnecessary plot twists. As someone who has dealt with bi-polar disorder in my family, I was not moved by this show at all. At a few points I was almost offended.

Sorry this post is all over the place, so I guess I'm just as bad as the show, but a few more points I wanted to address. Many people were mentioning Spring Awakening, a show which I personally loved. And it really has nothing to do with N2N aside from the cult following they both have and the rock music score. I will say that I loved the music of N2N, but hated the lyrics. The cast is extremely talented and I wish them the best of luck in whatever they do, but I expected more from this show.

[snl89]

Posted: 3/4/08 at 3:57pm

I may just be playing devil's advocate here, but I have to wonder if the medical technicalities aren't intended to be realistic. It just doesn't seem right for the show to have gone through such a long development process and still arrived with such inaccuracies if it was meant to be realistic. I think, especially given the fact that the idea of the son's presence is a bit supernatural on its own, there's an element of asking you to suspend your disbelief.

You know, that's a VERY interesting and valid point you make Emcee. I've kind of wondered myself, thinking about the piece, if maybe Diana isn't supposed to be quite as "crazy" as the doctors make her out to be. I mean, I know I myself do believe in spirits and ghosts- truly, I do. I myself have never really had any "supernatural" encounters, but I really do believe that there are people who can, and do. So... the thought has definitely crossed my mind.

It's really hard to tell, in Diana's case, because part of me thinks that it would make total sense if she WAS making him up in her own mind as a way to cope with her depression. But, at the same time, I do wonder if it's not a combination of that and... that maybe there IS a supernatural aspect to it.

And I agree, I think maybe the writers intended for it to be that way; intended for it to be unclear as to how much of it is Diana's mind and how much of it is.. a real presence. And, honestly, I for one like it that way. I think it makes it something that you can really dig into and ponder over, as opposed to it being just a very clearcut case of one particular mental illness. :)

[Elphie68]

Posted: 3/4/08 at 4:03pm

East Villiage,

I am trying to understand. I guess I am struggling to figure out why one can't commit to the struggle AND generalize/exaggerate a bit to make a bigger point. Why are the two mutually exclusive?

Were you put off by the wild depiction of shock therapy? I admit they got kind of abstract and Tommy-ish, no surprise with Tom Kitt on board btw. Or was it that they didn't specify an illness and show exactly how THAT specifically would be treated?

I'm not sure I fully understand your objection.

For me, I don't really need them to tell me exactly down to the letter the REALISTIC treatment. I got that they were trying to make a statement that often patients aren't listened to, are misdiagnosed, over/mis-medicated, told by each doctor that they "know" exactly what to do...only to find out that they really don't know how it all works. It is not an infallible science, this mind chemistry. To me that statement is more valuable than being able to say for sure this is manic depression and this is textbook treatment of it.

And, I actually appreciated them going a little Tommy and abstract with the ECT. It was supposed to always be a rock opera-ish score so it made sense. It also served to lighten up up a dark subject a bit, while making a serious point in the lyrics.

And as far as the doctor and other "hallucination" scenes, I think it's a real struggle to convey such a thing on stage so they again went a little rock/tommy/abstract/fantasy...if those are the right words. I'm not sure how else they would have done that without making it a dour and plodding exceedingly dark show. It also served to keep the feel of her sort of hyper mania.

So, for me, I just don't see how those were bad or out of place choices. Though, I realize that it may not work for everyone.

[Jane2]

Posted: 3/4/08 at 4:15pm

Excellent assessment, East Village. I agree with everything you've said. I just wasn't as articulate as you were in getting my point across.

[snl89]

Posted: 3/4/08 at 4:41pm

I get you Elphie -- and that's essentially what I had to keep telling myself in order to forgive the show's weak points and just enjoy the emotional journey.

If this show was say like Tommy and dealing with surface and spectacle and quite a bit of fantasy then I'd buy what you're saying. But if you ask the audience to commit to a character's deeply personal struggle as well as the reality of this family's drama, then you can't turn around and through something totally fake at them.

As such, it felt like a wonderful drama was taking place on stage -- then suddenly the dentist from Little Shop showed up.


For the show's sake, I AM glad that they're hopefully going to do a bit of re-writing, and hopefully going to strengthen the show some in the aspects you just mentioned, because it seems like the people who did have a problem with it tended to feel the exact same way.


That said, I'm kind of with Elphie68 on this one- I don't quite understand personally why it CAN'T work to have a mixture of both fantasy and reality. I think that I might have a problem with it if the fantasy aspects of the show weren't all in Diana's head, but.. they are. So, for that reason, to me personally it works just fine. In fact, I really ENJOY the balance between reality and fantasy that the show currently has. I feel like if you go totally fantasy with it, it becomes and entirely different show and I wouldn't want that. And if you go totally reality, it's too heavy. The way it is, I feel that it works remarkably well, because you still have that over all sense of what is reality, and yet Diana's little "rockstar" hallucinations help to make the subject matter easier to swallow, while still allowing you to extend your disbelief as an audience member because she is hallucinating, and that's made clear.

So yeah, to sum up:
I tend to agree with Elphie, however if rewriting the show a bit will make it even better, and make more people inclined to love it as opposed to just thinking it's an interesting idea that could have been done better, I am ALL for that :)

[luvtheEmcee]

Posted: 3/4/08 at 4:56pm

snl - I don't think I'd go so far as to say that she's not "crazy." She's obviously damaged, and there's obviously a serious screw loose. What I meant was that I'm not sure her symptoms were meant to be a realistic portrayal of any particular disorder; I don't think she's supposed to be an accurate representation of depression or bi-polar disorder or whatever -- just because you'd think that, after all these years of development and advice from professionals in the field, if the intention was complete diagnostic accuracy, you wouldn't end up with the kinds of medical discrepancies that people are pointing out. And I think the sort of supernatural presence of Gabe is part of the way the show asks you to suspend your scientific knowledge or your particular, specific life experience, and just to look at the piece emotionally. In the end, it's not a show about psychological disorder or electric shock therapy. It's a show about a very broken family.

Updated On: 3/4/08 at 04:56 PM

[Jane2]

Posted: 3/4/08 at 5:02pm

"What I meant was that I'm not sure her symptoms were meant to be a realistic portrayal of any particular disorder; "

Could be, and following that train of thought, it stands to reason that they were unable to provide a definitive diagnosis.

[snl89]

Posted: 3/4/08 at 5:03pm

Oh no, I totally agree. She's def has some very significant mental health issues. But I just DO really like that Gabe is really portrayed as.. more spirit-like as opposed to just a hallucination. With the way he kind of looms over the whole family, and not just Diana. It's a really cool element of the show, I think, that he's not simply there for Diana. She may be the only one who sees him, and in a litteral sense his looming over the rest of the family is probably more just a symbol of the effect that Diana's illness has HAD on the rest of her family. But at the same time, the way it's presented gives it this other supernatural element too. And I just think that's really cool :)

and I also agree, it's a good way for them to kind of ask the audience to suspend their disbelief enough so that it becomes an emotional story rather than a medical story. I think it wouldn't be nearly as engaging or emotionally affecting if it was a story about a phsycological disorder as opposed to a story about a very broken family.

Updated On: 3/4/08 at 05:03 PM

[Elphie68]

Posted: 3/4/08 at 5:07pm

SNL89...

That's what I was trying to say, albeit badly.

I'm sure further re-write might help. I'm just confused as to what the problem with it is. It's like knowing there is path but you don't know what direction to go to find it.

Musically the show is pretty tight. My one problem is the Perfect For You lyrics. The chorus is great, I just think they could do away with a lot of the environment talk. Shorten it.

For me, the acting is incredibly poignant.

So that leaves the story/book. And, as I said, I like how they have brought more of a balance. I understand FE was much darker. And, while I think the main problem people have with it is the depiction of the treatment (pills/therapy/ECT), I'm still not quite sure what people want. Do away with the whole Dr./Rockstar bit? Well, I tell ya, I think it gets very dry if you do that AND someone will need to suggest how you then show Diana's hallucinations. I thought it was a clever solution to that problematic piece of this story

[Jane2]

Posted: 3/4/08 at 5:07pm

" In the end, it's not a show about psychological disorder or electric shock therapy. It's a show about a very broken family."

Emcee, it IS about a broken family, but what broke this family is mental illness.

[luvtheEmcee]

Posted: 3/4/08 at 5:08pm

In medical terms, the fact that Diana sees her son is a hallucination. But this isn't a medical documentary. And so while you can look at that side of it, you also need to consider it as a piece of theater. And so in dramatic terms, yes, I think you can consider him to be something of a "spirit," because of the way in which he's treated as a legitimate character with influence over the action.

ETA: Yes, Jane, absolutely. I figured that was implicit.

Updated On: 3/4/08 at 05:08 PM

[Jane2]

Posted: 3/4/08 at 5:21pm

" I think it wouldn't be nearly as engaging or emotionally affecting if it was a story about a phsycological disorder as opposed to a story about a very broken family."

Good point, but the fact that the show IS about mental illness and how it affects a family, and how difficult it is to treat just might be educational to many who see it. So, it serves two purposes-entertainment and an attempt to be insightful about a serious problem many families face.

The more I read about the show, meaning different interpretations such as in this thread, the more I can begin to appreciate it. I'm not saying I now think it was great, though. I'm a person who lived this story (and still am), and I'm quite sensitive about it.

[snl89]

Posted: 3/4/08 at 5:22pm

I'm sure further re-write might help. I'm just confused as to what the problem with it is. It's like knowing there is path but you don't know what direction to go to find it.

Musically the show is pretty tight. My one problem is the Perfect For You lyrics. The chorus is great, I just think they could do away with a lot of the environment talk. Shorten it.


First off, TOTALLY agree about Perfect for You. Like, the general idea of the song is necessary, but that is the one song that needs to be changed lyrically. So much of it is just... not too good right now. But other than that, I personally think the show is EXTREMELY tight musically. Maybe a coouple little lyric changes here and there, but other than that, the score is brilliant and wonderfully varied, and the lyrics are generally very clever and tight.

Secondly, that's EXACTLY the problem I've been encountering too. As I think about it, I know there are ways the show can improve, but I've had a REALLY hard time actually pinpointing just what it is they can do TO improve it. I forget who it was that I was discussing this with in a previous NtN related thread, but what I've basically concluded is that a lot of it probably comes back to Dr. Madden as a character. What I'm thinking is that, if they just make a few simple changes in the way Dr. Madden interacts with Diana and Dan, it could make him come off as a more pertinent, simpathetic character. As is, it almost kind of feels like Dr. Madden is more a plot device than an actual character, you know? The rest of the characters are all so nicely developed (especially Natalie, but the others too), but Dr. Madden just seems to be there simply as a symbol of the medical struggles that Diana encounters. I think that if they could find a way to make his character truly seem like a character who truly has a relationship with this family in his own right, it might help significantly to make the piece seem less "Little Shop/Tommy-esque". And that wouldn't mean taking away the "rock star" bits, because, like you said, it would be dry without them. But simply changing or adding little lines here and there to show that he is more than just "the symbol of what's wrong with today's pharmaceuticals", you know? Unfortunately, I'd worry that if they were going to do that, for time purposes, they'd need to CUT other parts. And frankly, the only part I'm willing to give up is Perfect for You. If they cut any other songs, I will be very upset. haha. So like... if I were part of the creative team, I'd opt to just make it a little bit longer and flesh out Dr. Madden's part a bit.

Plus I would add "I've Been" back in, but that's my own personal thing because I adore the song and think it adds a really lovely aspect of Dan's character that we don't so much get as is. It's not necessary, but... I'm a big advocate for putting that song back in is all I'm sayin' :P


So yeah, those are my thoughts. But again, I've had the same problem, because it is REALLY hard to pinpoint exactly what can be done to make it the best piece it can possibly be. I do not envy the creative team, that's for sure. But I do TRUST them, because- heck, look how far they've come since when it was Feeling Electric! I listen to Feeling Electric now and I just have to laugh! I'm like "WOW, I actually thought this was that good!?" NtN is SOOO much better.

Updated On: 3/4/08 at 05:22 PM

[luvtheEmcee]

Posted: 3/4/08 at 5:25pm

Well, yeah. If I had to sum up what the show is about, I wouldn't just say it was about a messed up family. It's more complicated than that. I said that because I was talking about looking at the show in an emotional scope as opposed to a scientific one. I would say it's a show about how mental illness can tear relationships apart. That's something I've posted before, and something I unfortunately connect with on a level that's a little too close to home. Like I said, though, I just figured it was obvious in the context of this discussion.

Updated On: 3/4/08 at 05:25 PM

[Jane2]

Posted: 3/4/08 at 5:29pm

Emcee, Oh I agree, I was replying to snl's equally engaging post.

[luvtheEmcee]

Posted: 3/4/08 at 5:32pm

Oh, ok. Wasn't sure if you saw my edit on the other one.

[Elphie68]

Posted: 3/4/08 at 8:10pm

SNL89,

OMG...I might die if they change Dr. Madden and that means like cutting "My Psychopharmacologist and I". So, I am trepedatious of that route.

I mean the Dr. is pretty much a symbol. That's why Asa plays all of them. Personally, I'm ok with that. He is there to illustrate the issues with the medical treatment. The first one is all about it being chemical...so, with the pills. The next Dr that we see most, Madden, does all the talk and hypno stuff, then the ECT. It's beyond me what more they could or should do with him. I suppose we could see more of the therapy session or more discussion with Dan leading up to the ECT.

lol...I guess if I knew...I'd be writing for BWay!

[snl89]

Posted: 3/4/08 at 8:25pm

^oh no no, I totally agree- I do NOT want them cutting any of the songs, which obviously means I don't want them changing his character so much that cutting the songs would have to happen! haha. I adore "My Psychopharmacologist and I" and stuff :P


I guess I just mean, like you said, maybe some more of the therapy sessions, and lengthier interactions with Dan.

Again, it's really really difficult because i DO love all the "rock star" Dr. Madden moments, and I don't WANT him to become such a serious or main character that you loose that fantasy edge to the show (as the majority of the fantasy edge comes from the Dr. Madden hallucinations). I just feel like if they can make small changes to his character that make him seem a bit more well rounded, it might improve things. But yeah, if I actually had to sit down and DO it? I doubt I'd have any clue what to do! haha

[jordangirl]

Posted: 3/4/08 at 10:35pm

Getting into this late having just gotten in from seeing it again. :) But...

*spoilers in case anyone who hasn't seen it has read this far*

It's only a hallucination if he's not there. He could well be there as a ghost/spirit and Diana is just sensitive enough to see him while Dan isn't...at least until the end when something in him breaks with Diana leaving.

I have to say, tonight Alice was absolutely heartbreaking at that moment just before Diana walks out. I hadn't really paid much attention to her at that moment before ~ always focusing on Brian as Dan just kind of sits there. Tonight I looked over at Alice and the look she had on her face when she was standing there that moment right before leaving when he's not looking at her. It was total "(Expletive I cannot say on the board) LOOK AT ME!!!!! DO SOMETHING!!" Totally made me lose it.

[Wanna Be A Foster]

Posted: 3/4/08 at 10:35pm

Hasn't this show died yet?

When does its run finally end?

[frogs_fan85]

Posted: 3/4/08 at 10:43pm

The 16th

[snl89]

Posted: 3/4/08 at 10:47pm

** SPOILERS ** (I'm sorry, I've been so bad about this in this thread. I should have given spoiler warnings from the start when we started talking about the supernatural aspects of the show. But, you know, I figure better late than never! haha)



It's only a hallucination if he's not there. He could well be there as a ghost/spirit and Diana is just sensitive enough to see him while Dan isn't...at least until the end when something in him breaks with Diana leaving.

See, I have seriously, seriously considered that. And to an extent I still feel like that's definitely one way it can be seen. But then, thinking about it, it also DOES make sense that she would have made up Gabe in her mind as a way to cope. I just think that, in terms of this particular story, it's proobably more of a hallucination deal that can be viewed as a bit spiritual because of the way it's presented.

But, as someone who does very much believe in ghosts and spirits, I really like the idea of the possibility that maybe Gabe IS more a spirit than a figment of Diana's imagination. Plus, that does explain the ending really nicely too, because Diana's leaving leaves Dan more vulnerable and suseptable to Gabe's prescence. (But, if you want to look at it the other way as well, you could say that in that moment Dan needed to see him just long enough so that he could let him go, the same way Diana had needed to see him all that time before. So, it could really work either way. Either it WAS a mental thing, and Dan created him in his mind the same way Diana had as a coping mechanism for his own grief, or Gabe really was present and was finally able to make a connection with him. Either way works, and either way is very cool to think about!)


Oh, and can I just take a moment to point out how much I LOVE the whole way that part of the show is staged? I just love it how Gabe comes up from behind and holds him, so that it's made very clear Dan is FEELING him, but yet he still doesn't SEE him until the very end after Dan finally says his name. I think it's so brilliantly staged and planed out. So symbolic of all the emotions and sensations that are being felt in that moment :)

Updated On: 3/4/08 at 10:47 PM

[jordangirl]

Posted: 3/4/08 at 10:50pm

Mmmhmm. I know what you mean.

SOOOO good.

edited for more info: I completely agree that perhaps Dan couldn't see him until the break. I also believe that there are spirits around us who will let themselves be seen when/if we need them. Diana, in making that attempt to LIVE, doesn't need him at the moment. But Dan, whose pretty primary purpose was trying to hold Diana together, is left alone and all of a sudden he doesn't really have anyone to focus on (Natalie to a degree, but she's well on her way to grown) and so that leaves him open and vulnerable.

I definitely see it working that way.

Updated On: 3/4/08 at 10:50 PM