Obama condemns holocaust- predictably, National Review disagrees- Page 4

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 2/4/13 at 10:04pm

Really Yawper? It fosters more? That's insane. Do not speak of a horrible experience out loud, it will only make more horrible experiences happen.

And yes, with this post I would say that are much more clear in your anti-Semitism that you were with your more vague posts earlier, which is certainly your right. It's good to know who one is talking to.

[Yawper]

Posted: 2/4/13 at 10:19pm

I did not say do not speak of horrible experiences out loud. Speak of them accurately, in context, do not propagandize.

I have zero respect for those who easily throw around labels.

[SNAFU]

Posted: 2/4/13 at 10:26pm

"The 160 day siege of Stalingrad killed as many people as died in Auschwitz during the 4.5 years the Nazis ran it."

This post chills my spine! Oh, so I guess it wasn't all that bad then!

shakes head.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 2/4/13 at 10:27pm

I have zero respect for anybody whose thought process leads them to conclude that focusing on the Jewish devastation of the Nazi holocaust is not "relatable" enough to any human being with a conscience who happens to not be Jewish.

[ghostlight2]

Posted: 2/4/13 at 10:40pm

Guys, this is not a dick-sizing contest, nor a race. A lot of different groups of people died for really awful reasons, and it shouldn't happen again (though it has and it will, just on a smaller level).

The rest is just noise.

[SNAFU]

Posted: 2/4/13 at 10:45pm

"just on a smaller level" this from someone who says this is not a dick sizing contest!

[ghostlight2]

Posted: 2/4/13 at 10:46pm

Hey, I'm no size queen.

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 2/4/13 at 11:43pm

This is where I got my information from.

The number is not absolutely known. So perhaps the number was equal to those killed in Stalingrad. Like I said before, the comparison is a a faulty one.


No one will ever know for sure

[PalJoey]

Posted: 2/5/13 at 12:00am

Each group slaughtered should be honored in a unique and appropriate way, but they should never, never, never, never, never be compared.

The losses of the Ukraine, the losses of the Poles, the losses of the Belorussians, the losses in Lithuania, in Galicia, in the Netherlands and Denmark, in Hungary, in Austria, in France and Italy. The losses of the Romani Gypsy, of the homosexuals, of the disabled. All unique and painful. Each one unspeakably horrible--but each one its own way.

People like to say the Allies won the War, that they defeated the Nazis in Germany and Austria and the Fascists in Italy and Spain.

But, as far as Jews are concerned, Hitler won his ugly genocidal war. He won. He did it. He died victorious, because wherever there were flourishing Jewish communities before the war, there was left only burnt papers, charred corpses, broken glass and properties now confiscatable by Christians. Hitler won.

In 1941, massacres of Jews began taking place; by December Hitler had decided to exterminate all the European Jews. In all, he was able to eradicate more than 60% of the Jews in Europe, all murdered in the Holocaust. Germans knew. Christians knew. Lutherans knew. Catholics knew. Some spoke out most did not. Those who did suffered terrible punishment.

The world's Jewish population was reduced by a third, from roughly 16.6 million in 1939 to about 11 million in 1946. Over sixty years later, there are still fewer Jews in the world today than there were prior to 1940. Hitler won.

Doctors, lawyers, scientists, teachers, professors, musicians, actors, directors, designers, artists. All gone. Hitler won.

There are no flourishing Jewish communities in Berlin, Warsaw, Vienna, Prague, Budapest, Bucharest, not in Rome, not in Venice or Florence, not in Paris or Madrid or Lisbon, not in London, not anywhere, not like before.

That was Hitler's victory: He couldn't eradicate the Jews but he could destroy the happiness they had, the contributions they made to their nations, the security they felt as citizens.

All the groups that suffered suffered uniquely. The Jews were the only ethnic or religious group that had a extended government apparatus dedicated to the extinction of the group. That's the unique evil of the Shoah. It's not that we ignore the other evils. But they cannot be equated--equating any one of them to another or to other historical events normalizes them--and they mus never be made normal. They must be kept unique.

Only that way will they never be allowed to happen again.

Updated On: 2/5/13 at 12:00 AM

[Kad]

Posted: 2/5/13 at 12:06am

I really can't believe this is an actual debate.

[Yawper]

Posted: 2/5/13 at 12:43am

The Jews were the only ethnic or religious group that had a extended government apparatus dedicated to the extinction of the group.

But this isn't true. This is the big fallacy. Yes, Jews where hands down the largest group, but they were not the only.

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 2/5/13 at 1:06am

I don't recall the Nazi's publishing something like "The Final Solution to the Jewish Question" for any other ethnic group. This was a core objective of the German central government.

Posted: 2/5/13 at 11:22am

You know Joey, Hitler would be horrified to see the flourishing communities of Jews around the world, the success of Jews in so many fields, the preservation and continuation of Jewish culture, beliefs and traditions. Hitler inflicted horrible damages on the Jews of Europe but he did not win- he did not eliminate Jews from our world. It is small comfort indeed, but a small comfort nonetheless.

Updated On: 2/5/13 at 11:22 AM

[suestorm]

Posted: 2/5/13 at 12:21pm

how is this for REVENGE... the hotel i am staying at this summer ....The Hotel Lutetia... was the NAZIs HQ in Paris. It was recently bought by an Israeli.

Posted: 2/5/13 at 12:26pm

Glad to hear those oppressive Obama tax rates aren't ruining your vacation plans. Your multiple franchises and/or extra jobs must be paying well.

[suestorm]

Posted: 2/5/13 at 12:28pm

Thanks Joe!
BTW, i never said i disliked Obama or his tax plan.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 2/5/13 at 1:38pm

Hitler inflicted horrible damages on the Jews of Europe but he did not win- he did not eliminate Jews

He couldn't achieve his ultimate goal--others in history have tried as well--but he eliminated the vitality of the Jewish population in every country in Europe.

Yes, there are 1.4 million Jews in Europe today, but before World War Two, there were nearly 10 million.

Before World War Two, there were 3.25 million Jews in Poland. Now there are 3,200.

Before World War Two, there were over 1 million Jews in Hungary. Now there are 13,000.

Before World War Two, there were 350,000 Jews in Czechoslavakia, including families that had been there since the 10th century. Today there are 4,000 Jews living in the Czech Republic, where Jews had once accounted for 25 percent of the population. The Nazis killed 77 percent of Slovak Jews.

And in Germany and Austria, there were about 700,000 Jews before World War Two--although the Nazis added in mixed-race people with "Jewish blood" and counted over 1.5 million. There are now approximately 105,000 Jews in Germany and only 8,000 in Austria.

Even in Vichy and Occupied France, 25 percent of the French Jews at the time died in transit camps in France, due to malnutrition or the absence of sanitation, or they were taken to German concentration camps, where they were killed.

Those Jews were scientists and artists and tailors and painters and composers and teachers and politicians and vibrant parts of each of those cultures.

It was that vibrant presence in Europe that Hitler succeeded in exterminating.

Updated On: 2/5/13 at 01:38 PM

[suestorm]

Posted: 2/5/13 at 1:53pm

Those Jews were scientists and artists and tailors and painters and composers and teachers and politicians and vibrant parts of each of those cultures.

It was that vibrant presence in Europe that Hitler succeeded in exterminating.


unfort, yes he did

also in a great shame to both nations, both the Soviet Union and the USA gave full amnesty and safe harbor to NAZI scientists

[Kad]

Posted: 2/5/13 at 2:09pm

And it is because of those scientists mankind got to the Moon, amongst other achievements.

[suestorm]

Posted: 2/5/13 at 2:33pm

"And it is because of those scientists mankind got to the Moon, amongst other achievements. "


true but at what cost? those horrible animals got to live the Ameican Dream, or treated like one of the Politburo instead of being executed or tortured. plus, we wouldve gotten to the moon anyway, albiet a few years later.

[Jane2]

Posted: 2/5/13 at 2:43pm

"And it is because of those scientists mankind got to the Moon, amongst other achievements."

I have a hard time feeling grateful to any Nazi.

[Kad]

Posted: 2/5/13 at 3:00pm

I don't mean to glorify them at all, but a good deal of research done by Nazi scientists has been used in a large number of fields. Integrated circuits, rocketry, radar, manned spaceflight, jet propulsion, and more were all pioneered or advanced by Nazi scientists- many of whom were snatched up by the US following the war in Operation Paperclip. Even the data gained from the unspeakable, sadistic Nazi medical experiments has been used to further medicine.

For all of the horrors these scientists enabled, oversaw, or performed themselves, we reap their benefits today, on a daily basis, all over the world. Nothing is pure, and most are unknowingly complicit.

[Jane2]

Posted: 2/5/13 at 3:07pm

that's ok, I'm kind of biased against Nazis. Perhaps the Jewish scientists that they slaughtered would have given the world just as important work.

I understand your point, Kad.

[Kad]

Posted: 2/5/13 at 3:14pm

I mean... any rational person should be biased against Nazis. And I have no doubt that the innovations of their scientists would have been matched, in time, by others- and by those the world would never know due to their actions and allegiances. But instead the world enjoys the benefits of their fruit, although they have been fertilized with blood.

The innovations of good men have been used for evil, and the innovations of immoral or amoral men have been used for good. It's hard to even think about.

[Jane2]

Posted: 2/5/13 at 3:17pm

Very good point, Kad!