Posted: 6/13/15 at 3:32pm
I mean, Jordan's essential point, regardless if he refers to Caitlyn Jenner or Laverne Cox, is that if Rachel Dolezal had said, "I'm a man, refer to me as Richard from now on, please," this wouldn't be a topic of discussion.
Posted: 6/13/15 at 3:42pm
PRS, absolutely! I'm not shy in saying that I find Caitlyn a deplorable person and the fact as nothing but a millionaire media whore, she's the bar to which all trans women are being held to is disgusting. But you can't say that, it seems. And in this conversation, I was using that name because she's the trans person everyone is talking about now and comparing to in this situation.
And Kad is right. Do we have a point where we say to people "No. Your name is not Richard. Your name is Rachel." I mean, I can ask people to refer to me as "Academy Award Winner..." but it doesn't change the fact that I'm not an Academy Award winner, even if I walk around with an imitation statue that someone made for me. And if that's weird to people, do I have the right to say I'm being discriminated against because I want to be an Academy Award winner?
Posted: 6/13/15 at 4:41pm
How is Rachel Dolezal different than trans people?
She had to START pretending...
Trans people STOP pretending...
Posted: 6/13/15 at 4:44pm
Of course I don't know, but she may well feel that's not the case.
Posted: 6/13/15 at 4:48pm
Exactly, Reg. If you're going to say it's ok for one person to say they feel different and want to be represented as such, than who are you to say another person can't feel that way?
Posted: 6/13/15 at 4:50pm
In an interview she gave yesterday she clearly stated she doesn't give two sh*ts what anyone thinks about her. Like the saying goes: What you think of me is none of my business.
Posted: 6/13/15 at 4:51pm
I think Kad frames the issues pretty well and asks the right questions--or, at least, the questions I'm asking myself.
"But that malleability is problematic for a lot of people, since it erases established markers of identity."
I think another issue, certainly for African Americans and very likely for women (though I'm neither, so I admit I'm making assumptions here) is the notion of taking on the mantle of each group's historical oppression. It's probably dangerous to play the "if ______ were ______, we'd feel differently," but I'm guessing that if a black person were assuming a white identity, we'd be less worked up about it as a country.
Posted: 6/13/15 at 4:54pm
Jordan, a whole bunch of people are actually saying it's NOT okay for Caitlyn to claim the gender identity she's claiming. A casual glance at the comments section of most websites makes that clear.
Posted: 6/13/15 at 4:58pm
Sorry that wasn't not the video or article I intended to share. I've reposted the one I wanted to share below.
Updated On: 6/13/15 at 04:58 PM
Posted: 6/13/15 at 5:05pm
I don't think anyone should tell anyone else what they can or can't identify as. But I think it's the "I now want to be called a woman and YOU now have to refer to me as a woman" that's a hard pill for some people to swallow.
Posted: 6/13/15 at 5:06pm
"Yes, I Do Consider Myself To Be Black"
Well there ya go. So are you going to refer to her as a black woman because it's what she wants?
Posted: 6/13/15 at 5:08pm
I agree with what you are saying Jordan. One can make that specific request but in the end the person making the request has absolutely no control if anyone is going to adhere to it and decide to do otherwise.
Posted: 6/13/15 at 5:13pm
I wonder if she has misrepresented herself on any legal documents and if she did if charges would be brought against her for fraud.
The Spokane Police Department has already suspended investigations of alleged hate crimes she said were committed against her which include some packages that were "delivered" to her NAACP post office box. Those packages did not bear cancelled stamps or bar codes leading officials and post office workers to believe she planted them there herself. If it turns out she did charges could be brought against her.
Updated On: 6/13/15 at 05:13 PM
Posted: 6/13/15 at 5:16pm
"One can make that specific request but in the end the person making the request has absolutely no control if anyone is going to adhere to it and decide to do otherwise."
But are we racially intolerant to her if we choose NOT to refer to her in the identity that she wants?
Posted: 6/13/15 at 5:19pm
That's a great question Jordan. One may consider not to refer to her as black simply because she isn't and not necessarily because they have anything against black people.
Posted: 6/13/15 at 5:32pm
But if those same people who have nothing against women chose to refer to Caitlyn as a man because she has that penis and technically is a man, that would be completely unacceptable, right?
Posted: 6/13/15 at 5:49pm
Well... there are certainly many feminists who have major issues with trans women, for reasons not unlike those that African-Americans have with Dolezal: appropriation, bypassing a lifetime of discrimination, shifting identity as a luxury of those who are already privileged.
I don't agree with them... even if I do find it troubling that the most iconic trans advocates are MTF.
Posted: 6/13/15 at 5:57pm
That's interesting, Kad. I wasn't aware of those feminists and I think their opinions on that (right or wrong) would be interesting to read.
Its a bit like people who convert to Judiasm, I think. I've known several people in my lifetime who've done that and while nobody says anything really, it's still not your history. One woman I know converted 25 or so years ago and talks at lectures about "our people" and the holocaust and even though she's a family friend and I love her to death...it's not her history. She might want it to be since she's always felt more at home with the Jewish faith but historically biologically - she's not one of us. She didn't have to get tested for Tay-Sachs when she was pregnant. She was brought up Catholic.
So maybe she's transreligious?
Posted: 6/13/15 at 5:57pm
"But if those same people who have nothing against women chose to refer to Caitlyn as a man because she has that penis and technically is a man, that would be completely unacceptable, right? "
No. You can't force anyone to do what they do not want to do. In the end what matters is what she considers herself, not what other people choose to call her.
Posted: 6/13/15 at 5:58pm
Sorry Carlos, I meant "socially unacceptable".
Posted: 6/13/15 at 6:01pm
Posted: 6/13/15 at 6:03pm
Thanks for that. It's honestly something I never even thought about but am now fascinated with.
Posted: 6/13/15 at 6:03pm
There are certainly sects of Jews who don't like converts, too. The ultra-Orthodox, like those living in enclaves in Brooklyn, are notoriously xenophobic and discriminatory.
It's a protective sense of ownership of identity.
Posted: 6/13/15 at 6:05pm
Jordan: this recent op-ed in the NYTimes touches a lot on the feminist take on trans issues, too.
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