So... no threads about Israel and Gaza, eh? (2014)- Page 2

[Someone in a Tree2]

Posted: 7/24/14 at 10:22pm

"If Canada started bombing us here in the US, a) we would fight back. B) would you refer to us as "persecuting Canadians" at that point?"

But America isn't holding the population of Canada behind concrete ghetto walls where Americans control all ins and outs, including food and medicine. Americans don't control Canada's right to fish their coastline, or control their airspace.

If you were just in Israel 2 weeks ago, how can you ignore the concrete walls surrounding the West Bank that line the highway en route to Jerusalem? These are ghetto walls as surely as those that once went up in every capital in Europe.

[lovepuppy]

Posted: 7/24/14 at 11:09pm

Well, the country is 260 miles long, and 70 miles wide, and I was with family in Jerusalem for a bit, and on a tour for a bit, and in Tel Aviv for a bit, and was not anywhere near the war zone of Gaza (thankyouverrymuch). So, I didn't "ignore" anything in Gaza so much as "was not taken over there," with good reason. And the bulk of my visit was not even during any of the rocket fire, as that literally started two days before I left, firing in Gaza (to the west) and toward the Negev Desert (to the south). On my last night there, there was a rocket intercepted 15 miles from Tel Aviv, when my cousin and I were picking up dinner for the family. The siren went off, then it stopped, then everybody went about their business, including looking up into the sky and pointing at the remaining smoke cloud after the interceptor hit.

As for a cement wall up in Gaza, the response is: 60 years of fighting means at some point, they put a wall up, and I don't blame them at all. If Canada started bombing the US consistently and continued for 60 years, I think it would take about a day to mobilize actions against bombing, including but not limited to walls, then waterways, etc.

You cannot and should not equate "Israel putting up a wall to keep out neighbors who want to bomb and kill them" with "walls that sprung up in ever major city in Europe during WWII." As everyone knows, in the second case, the Jews were the victims there, too. They did not put up their own walls to separate from their communities, and say "hey, let's go live in poverty and wait to be sent on trains to gas chambers, that would be cool." Um, Nazis did that *to* them. Making that kind of comparison is pretty offensive and I hope you never say that publicly, or think that, again.

Updated On: 7/24/14 at 11:09 PM

[henrikegerman]

Posted: 7/25/14 at 9:10am

"If Canada started bombing us here in the US, a) we would fight back. B) would you refer to us as "persecuting Canadians" at that point?"

What if it were us is always a good check on one's opprobrium. But in order to honestly answer that question one has to answer a great many other questions.

Have we been blockading Canada or bombing UN schools there? Would we be if we were at war with them? Would we blockade them if they democratically elected a government we didn't - for however good a reason - agree with?

If the answer to any of those questions would be yes, I would be as critical of our government as I am currently of the Israeli campaign in Gaza.

In other words if I were Israeli, I would now be one of the great many Israelies currently very critical of their own government.

"3. A two-state solution wherein Israel ends their illegal settlements, goes back to the 1967 borders and ends the occupation. And, in which Hamas is disarmed and disbanded and the new Palestinian government recognizes the right of Israel to exist."

Shades of Carter, Arafat and Begin. That was 40 years ago. Unfortunately, I have become unwaveringly pessimistic that there is anything that will make this situation better. I have also become impervious to an appeal against a one state solution on the grounds that this might make Jews a minority. I'm an American. I don't believe in ethnic nationalism. I equate it with racism. At the same time, I acknowledge that Israel is not the only country based on ethnicity with issues as grave, serious and long-lived as the ones we are now discussing. I also acknowledge that multi-cultural democracy can't be forced on people. It doesn't work.

What does work? I haven't a &*)(*(ing idea. I'm completely burned out on this conflict. It makes me feel like the Prince of Verona.



Updated On: 7/25/14 at 09:10 AM

[javero]

Posted: 7/25/14 at 12:26pm

"I'm an American. I don't believe in ethnic nationalism. I equate it with racism."

That's an excellent rebuttal to...

"On a related note, Joey, Muslims and Hispanics in particular have come to the US and have done the same thing. In contrast, the number of Whites in the US have 1-2 kids. Whites in the US will be a minority ethnicity in the US in about 10 years."

Forgive me for going off topic lovepuppy, but what will become of the folks in the US who don't self-identify as either white, Muslim, or Hispanic? Oops, nearly forgot...we're already ethnic minorities and have been for the longest time.

[lovepuppy]

Posted: 7/25/14 at 12:33pm

I know, I know. Just talking statistically speaking, not qualitative studies like the concept of self-identifying...

As for the other stuff, I will have to think about it and perhaps respond later. Work calls... Have a happy, conflict-free-in-the-US Friday, everyone.

[Someone in a Tree2]

Posted: 7/25/14 at 12:46pm

"You cannot and should not equate "Israel putting up a wall to keep out neighbors who want to bomb and kill them" with "walls that sprung up in ever major city in Europe during WWII."

Lovepuppy, you yourself added the words "during WWII" and thereby added a Nazi context that I never wrote. I'm speaking of ghettos that existed for Jews in every capital of Europe from the Middle Ages up until the Napoleonic Era. Of course the Jews didn't build those walls-- the dominant Christian cultures did. They viewed Jews as dangerous and kept them behind walls to "protect" the greater state from harm. I'm saying the Israeli government as the culture in power here should be first to recognize their own ghetto-ization of the Palestine peoples in the West Bank and Gaza because of the Jews' own history of suffering persecution for 2500 years.

[~~tiny3~~]

Posted: 7/25/14 at 1:26pm

I can't wait for PJ's rebuttal of THIS ^.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 7/25/14 at 1:40pm

I have nothing more to say. I don't defend the worst excesses of Zionism, nor do I ask my Muslim friends to defend the worst excesses of Islamism. My previous post in this thread is pretty much all I'll have to say on the subject until the miracle comes.

[~~tiny3~~]

Posted: 7/26/14 at 7:33pm

https://www.facebook.com/idfonline

[lovepuppy]

Posted: 7/26/14 at 11:33pm

Two very interesting articles


http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/shalom-motherfr/

http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/a-thank-you-to-the-anti-semites/

[Sister George]

Posted: 7/27/14 at 7:49am

A very interesting read with informative video footage if you have the time. Written 2 years ago but sadly still as relevant

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurtis/posts/save_your_kisses_for_me

[Borstalboy]

Posted: 7/27/14 at 11:01am

7,000 protest in Tel Aviv

[Someone in a Tree2]

Posted: 7/27/14 at 11:11am

^ Thanks for posting that, Borstal boy. It's nice to appreciate that neither Israel nor Gaza acts as one monolithic being. There IS a strong community of citizens for peace there that bridges both groups that still needs to be heard above the shouting.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 7/27/14 at 11:14am

Among the people to give speeches at the event were Capt. Assaf Ya'akobovich (Res.) and Salim Tabib of Ramallah. The two are active in an organization devoted to finding a peaceful solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. They called for both sides to immediately put down their arms.

The exercise of dissent is a beautiful thing.

What would happen to a similar gathering of Gazans, protesting Hamas's actions?

They would be executed by Hamas.

[HorseTears]

Posted: 7/27/14 at 3:05pm

I'd encourage everyone to take a look at Breaking the Silence. The Israeli NGO made up of IDF veterans who have served since Second Intifada. The project aims to allow IDF vets to personally offer first-hand testimonials of serving in the occupied territories - frequently cataloging the IDF's abuse, everyday humiliations and serious human rights violations of Palestinian citizens - and often going against the "self-defense" narrative of the IDF and the far-right government in Israel. They offer these testimonials in print, on video and at live speaking events in Israel and in many international locations. I greatly admire the courage of these men and women who are willing to speak truth to power and, no doubt, face a lot of criticism from their fellow citizens. I wonder if there's a similar US NGO that offers this service for US vets who have served in Afghanistan and Iraq.


BREAKING THE SILENCE: Israeli soldiers talk about the occupied territories

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 7/27/14 at 3:48pm

I am so divided on this issue. Israel has a right to defend herself. The Palestinians deserve some sort of autonomy (but note, where is the outrage other Arab countries doing much worse to people?). But that autonomy should not come at the expense of Israel's safety.

On a side note, I also believe that every Palestinian family that was relocated when Israel was formed should be compensated in current dollars for the value of the homes taken. Israel will not allow them to return in the near future, but they should at least compensate them for what was taken. Give those families a chance to start fresh with the resources to build a new home. Maybe some of those Arab states will even let them in, especially if they have money to bring in. It is not perfect, but it is a start.

It was once said by my Rabbi "There will only be peace once the Palestinians (or Hamas)love their children more than they hate Israel." Hamas has proven that it does not love its children, as it continues to launch rockets at Israel from civilian locations (near schools, hospitals and the like) and then use Israel's retaliation in a PR campaign. And, because of the continued escalation, those in Israel who advocate a true two state solution are drowned out by fear and anger.

For the record, one of Bush's many blunders was forcing elections in the territories - which legitimized Hamas and helped put us in the position we are in today - where moderate voices are drowned out by those currently in power (especially in the territories, and to an extent, because of those in power in the territories, in Israel as well).

I am truly torn on this - because there are plenty of peace loving Israelis who believe in a two state solution - and know that this continued back and forth only perpetuates and builds the anger. The far right in Israel is very powerful, and Hamas launching rockets into Israel only strengthens their position - even pacifist understand that you cannot sit by and let Hamas continually launch rockets into Israel, build underground tunnels to attack Israel.

[~~tiny3~~]

Posted: 7/27/14 at 4:39pm

PJ, once again crystallizes brilliantly a difficult concept
Thanks, PJ. As for myself, I find the following blog, for the most part very illuminating, particularly, the July 25th entry.

https://www.facebook.com/popchassid

[PalJoey]

Posted: 7/27/14 at 7:56pm

Your rabbi was quoting Golda Meir, who first said the line about Arabs and children.

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 7/27/14 at 11:01pm

I know it came from somewhere else. But the line unfortunately stands true today. He may have made the attribution and I missed it.

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 7/27/14 at 11:01pm

Double post - whoops.
Updated On: 7/27/14 at 11:01 PM

[HorseTears]

Posted: 7/29/14 at 8:51pm

More than 100 Palestinians - the majority civilians, many children - were killed overnight in Israeli shelling and 5 Israeli soldiers were killed in a Hamas ambush. Israel also destroyed Gaza's only power plant. So, all in all, things are really working out well.

The blog Humanize Palestine is attempting to do just what its title says. We keep hearing all these shocking numbers "a dozen killed here, 100 killed there", but rarely hear the stories of the individuals. They just become statistics. The blog captures photos, bios and remembrances of Palestinian civilians killed in this violence. Worth paying a visit.

Blog:
http://humanizepalestine.com/

Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/humanizepalestine

Updated On: 7/29/14 at 08:51 PM

[PalJoey]

Posted: 7/29/14 at 11:59pm

I weary of the "Read this" "No, read THIS!" debate that rages on social media.

But this man--a Muslim but not an Arab--a Pakistani/Canadian physician and musician and writer, gave this overview that will piss off partisans on either side, but gives strange comfort to those of us who are overwhelmed with mixed emotions:


HUFF POST BLOG: Ali A. Rizvi: Pakistani-Canadian writer, physician and musician: 7 Things to Consider Before Choosing Sides in the Middle East Conflict

[lovepuppy]

Posted: 7/30/14 at 12:22am

PJ--

>>What would happen to a similar gathering of Gazans, protesting Hamas's actions?
They would be executed by Hamas.

In fact, this has happened. Please see this note I received today from Chicago's JUF Director General in Israel (key point answering your question bracketed by arrows):

==
Subject: Operation Protective Edge Update Tuesday

As day 22 ends, it is clear that Hamas has no intention of actually implementing any cease-fire. Their statements are now better aligned than previously and discord between the political wing (Khaled Mashal, in Qatar) and the military wing (Mohammad Deff, in Gaza) is seemingly put on the back burner as both are in agreement that a cease-fire with Israel will only happen when the "blockade" is lifted and life in Gaza resumes normally. This is a demand that they know Israel cannot agree with, especially as long as tunnels are still operational and as long as Hamas has a stockpile of at least 4,000 rockets ready to be launched. Hamas has used the few hours of humanitarian cease-fire on Sunday to advance its forces towards positions that are closer to the IDF and it has sent more of its terrorists into the tunnels. Some tunnels, by the way, have accommodations in them allowing people to stay in them for a period of days. Hamas also used the lull in fighting in order to booby trap tunnels and buildings that they know the IDF will go into.

At dawn, a group of Hamas terrorists went through a tunnel and came out near an IDF position, where they killed five Israeli soldiers. All Hamas terrorists managed to escape back into the tunnel with the exception of one.

--->A group of about 20 civilians in the Gaza neighborhood of Shej'ayia tried to stage an anti-Hamas demonstration today in Gaza. They were rounded up by Hamas, accused of being collaborators with Israel and killed. <---

In the evening, rockets were launched at Jerusalem and Tel Aviv, all were intercepted.

UNRWA today revealed that a third school run by the UN in Gaza held a number of rockets and missiles.

The IDF has now completed the planning stage for a possible expansion of the ground attack into Gaza, if the government should give the order. A larger operation may be needed in order to target more rocket launchers that are hidden underground.

Talk of a cease-fire on the Israeli side is not very prominent and an opinion poll conducted among Israelis showed that over 83% are opposed to a cease-fire under the present circumstances, when Hamas still controls dozens of tunnels and thousands of rockets.


Ofer Bavly
Director General, Israel Office
Jewish Federation of Metropolitan Chicago
==

Updated On: 7/30/14 at 12:22 AM

[HorseTears]

Posted: 7/30/14 at 3:00am

lovepuppy - I've seen that report of the Gazan protesters being executed in a few news sources - all of them Israeli or American far-right outlets like Andrew Breibart's blog. Hopefully some more reputable outlets will pick it up. Assuming it's accurate, it's absolutely dreadful. And, I don't doubt that it could be true.

There are also reports - though none seem to be confirmed - that an errant Hamas rocket was actually responsible for an attack on Gaza's biggest hospital.

Just sadness on top of sadness.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 7/30/14 at 8:07am

Neither of those events will be picked up or reported by "reputable" news outlets. They do not fit the current narrative.