A Sondheim rhyme that bothers me

[morosco]

Posted: 10/28/11 at 1:25pm

Well, then, if you're British and loyal,
You might enjoy Royal Marine!
Anyway, it's clean.
Though of course, it tastes of wherever it's been!

Why do I let this bother me? In order to make the last line rhyme you have to apply a "british and loyal" accent. Am I overthinking this?

[willep]

Posted: 10/28/11 at 1:27pm

Well, it does take place in London, so the British accent is kind of a given...

[Michael Bennett]

Posted: 10/28/11 at 1:28pm

I was always bothered by Oscar Hammerstein's line in SOUTH PACIFIC:

"Flatly, I'll stand on my little flat feet and say..."

I never understood the double use of the word in a single phrase

[themysteriousgrowl]

Posted: 10/28/11 at 1:32pm

He's writing for a British character, so I don't really see why it should be bothersome.

You also have to use the British pronunciation of "clerk" to make

* Lovely bit of clerk / Maybe for a lark *

work properly.



But while we're on the subject, here's one that bothers me.
It's not the rhyme itself, but how he gets there.

From "Some People" --

*Some people can get a thrill
knitting sweaters and sitting still.
That's okay for some people
who don't know they're alive.

Some people can thrive and bloom
living life in the living room.
That's perfect for some people
of one hundred and five *


Why 105? Why that many? Because he needed the syllables?

If so, it's exceedingly cheap by Sondheimian standards.

Or is it a reference to something that I don't get?

[Reginald Tresilian]

Posted: 10/28/11 at 1:33pm

The first one doesn't bother me, because Mrs. Lovett, being English, would pronounce "been" that way.

The one that bugs me is also from "Sweeney":

"Is that just revolting?
All greasy and gritty,
It looks like it's molting,
And tastes like--
Well, pity . . . "

I mean, what was she going to say that would a) scan, b) rhyme, and c) make sense?

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 10/28/11 at 1:36pm

Wait a second...I thought Sondheim was unquestionable and infallible. Do I smell an Occupy Broadway protest brewing?

[Reginald Tresilian]

Posted: 10/28/11 at 1:38pm

Mister Matt, it's like people calling Obama "messiah" and "the one": Supporters never did that. It was only ever the anti-s.

[willep]

Posted: 10/28/11 at 1:44pm

Reginald - I have always imagined it somehow being "sh***y." I am not completely sure how the rest of the line would go to make it work though.

[themysteriousgrowl]

Posted: 10/28/11 at 1:48pm

Reg, the false "****ty" rhymes has always stuck in my craw for the exact same reason.


I used to have a list of 6 or 7 examples of Sondheim using, if not the exact same rhyme, the exact same lyrical idea or image, in different shows. It felt like a list worth making because the occurences were so infrequent.

The one that springs immediately to mind is a very singular image that occurs in both FORUM and PACIFIC OVERTURES.

From "Chrysanthemum Tea" --

* The blossom falls on the mountain,
The mountain falls on the blossom."

From "Funeral Sequence" --

"All Trace was in her thrall
Oh, why should such a blossom fall"


The image of a falling blossom is very particular, so he must have liked it very much to use it twice.

[Reginald Tresilian]

Posted: 10/28/11 at 1:50pm

Willep, I agree that's the word we're supposed to think of, but I can't come up with a line that scans and makes sense.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 10/28/11 at 1:50pm

Mister Matt, it's like people calling Obama "messiah" and "the one": Supporters never did that. It was only ever the anti-s.

My memory says that is so not the case in regard to this board, but I have no desire to search for examples. I do know that some Sondheim fans felt he was disrespected by Stephen Colbert.

As for the pity line, are we supposed to assume she had something else rhyming to say there, since she went and rhymed something else in a new thought?

I'd nominate virtually all of "Country House" for crappy Sondheim lyrics. "You can't afford to be bored with your board?" Where does the boredom mention come from?

[Reginald Tresilian]

Posted: 10/28/11 at 1:53pm

But even saying he was disrespected by Colbert isn't the same as saying he can do no wrong. But I was mostly kidding anyway.

If Mrs. L wasn't going to finish her original sentence with a logical line that scans and rhymes, then I think it's a cheat. Obviously Sondheim knew he was going to head in a different direction, but Mrs. L shouldn't.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 10/28/11 at 1:59pm

To me that sort of gets into the grey area (at least what I consider a grey area) of whether or not characters actually know whether they are singing or not, and whether or not they are - as characters - actively crafting the rhymes in their heads before they sing them.

If she knew she was rhyming everything else, then I don't see it being a cheat that she rhymes the next words, even though they are part of a different thought. If she doesn't know she was rhyming (or singing, I guess), then I might think it's a cheat.

[themysteriousgrowl]

Posted: 10/28/11 at 2:00pm

Since we're picking on the song, I've always felt the addition of "with limited wind" right after that was a pretty painful stretch for a joke. If "limited wind" were a Britishism (or a colloquialism of any stripe) it might be forgivable, but it's a moment that always makes me acutely aware of the songwriter, which is something Sondheim rails against every chance he gets -- being *too* clever. In fact, there's a lot in SWEENEY that makes me aware of him scribbling with his notepad and pencil. It's a show that makes me wish I were more learned about music because it's one of my least favorite shows of his, lyrics-wise, and so many people just adore it.

[Reginald Tresilian]

Posted: 10/28/11 at 2:03pm

I don't think Mrs. L does know she's rhyming, any more than Macbeth knows he's speaking in iambic pentameter.

That's why I think it's a cheat on the writer's part.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 10/28/11 at 2:03pm

I always thought "limited wind" was odd because I would imagine it takes a lot of wind to spit out that song in the first place.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 10/28/11 at 2:07pm

I don't think Mrs. L does know she's rhyming, any more than Macbeth knows he's speaking in iambic pentameter.

I tend to think like that, too, Reg, but I always wonder if that kind of thinking is the minority. Anecdotally (and basically I mean from reading these boards) I think many people do believe that singers in musicals are aware of the songs and rhymes that come out of their mouths, hence all the talk of "justifying" singing in a musical. I always think that the mere fact that it's a musical justifies the singing (and the musical conventions that come with it), but I know not everyone sees it that way.

[Reginald Tresilian]

Posted: 10/28/11 at 2:07pm

I always assumed that was part of the "limited wind" joke, Phyl.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 10/28/11 at 2:15pm

As I typed that I was thinking that, and then wondering if I was overthinking things, because isn't she aware of her singing then? I think I've fallen into a rabbit hole!

[themysteriousgrowl]

Posted: 10/28/11 at 2:17pm

Yeah, Phyl, that's the joke that takes me out of the song because it's Sondheim goofing on himself. He gets away with it during "It's a Hit" in MERRILY because the characters are also writers, but here it feels very forced.

[Reginald Tresilian]

Posted: 10/28/11 at 2:22pm

I don't know that it's so much Mrs. L being aware that she's singing, though she may know she's been going on for a while.

It reminds me of a friend who tells INTERMINABLE stories, and then concludes with "Long story short . . ."

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 10/28/11 at 2:28pm

That makes more sense.

I was surprised when I read "Finishing the Hat" that Sondheim didn't mention the big "problem" line in "The Ladies Who Lunch":

Rushing to their classes in optical art, wishing it would pass

I know he has said the "it" she sings is referring to the optical art craze, but it seems like a reach that you are supposed to understand that that's what she means.

[Reginald Tresilian]

Posted: 10/28/11 at 2:30pm

That's a good one.

I mean, bad one.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 10/28/11 at 2:38pm

Not to mention that there probably weren't "classes" in optical art. A single lecture in a lecture series on modern art in general, perhaps. But "classes"--plural?

Not very likely.

However, he needed a three-syllable word to go with the retard in the musical phrase. Neither the two-syllable "modern" or the five-syllable "contemporary" would do.

[themysteriousgrowl]

Posted: 10/28/11 at 2:39pm

Horrendous. Zero clarity of meaning there.