A Sondheim rhyme that bothers me- Page 3

[chewy5000]

Posted: 10/29/11 at 6:55am

Who pronounces it "Moller" anyway?

Isn't it supposed to be "Maaah-lerr" ?

[best12bars]

Posted: 10/29/11 at 6:58am

As far as Mrs. Lovett's "suggested" rhyme before she sings, "Well, pity ..."

That doesn't bother me. It's in a "Musical Hall" style, which definitely plays to the audience. That's the way her character was written. She does it all through the show, with both dialogue and song (particularly Little Priest and By the Sea) and Lansbury played it that way originally.

It only comes off odd to me when the director and actress try to approach the character in a different style, ignoring the fourth wall (the "Music Hall" audience) entirely. Then this lyric and many others seem self-aware.

[After Eight]

Posted: 10/29/11 at 8:39am

"It seems foolish to even complain when it's Sondheim, but I suppose he raises the bar so high..."

So high?...... As compared to whom? -- Larry Hart? Ira Gershwin? E.Y. Harburg? Cole Porter?

I don't think so.

You're a bright guy, Eric. Too bright to be mouthing party-line platitudes with no basis in fact.

[Gaveston2]

Posted: 10/29/11 at 9:40am

abitoftap, I think what you are remembering is Elaine Stritch claiming SHE thought "Mahler's" was a kind of cake when she first learned the lyric. I don't know whether she was being literal or making a joke.

EricMontreal22, my memory is that fleas were a huge problem everywhere people kept animals (including pets) until the invention of modern flea collars, etc. (My memory goes back to late 50s, though I was a kid and not an expert on the West Side slums of New York.)

Yes, SWEENEY TODD has music hall-style numbers and Sondheim takes liberties appropriate to the form. Particularly in "Try Priest."

Which is only one reason I don't think we should take too literally Sondheim's oft repeated dictum that "rhyme always indicates intelligence and education." See LI'L ABNER, for example. Characters--particularly in comedies--have been using diction (including rhyme) beyond their realistic capabilities for centuries.

It's a nice convention that Sondheim and Harnick inherited from Hammerstein: uneducated characters don't speak or sing like they are at one of Cole Porter's cocktail parties, but it's just a convention. Musical theater (from low comedy to opera) isn't realistic in any form.

[TonyVincent]

Posted: 10/29/11 at 9:41am

Not Sondheim, in fact, the opposite, but a "British Accent Required" rhyme that always bothered me is from JCS:

You have set them all on fire
They think they've found the new Messiah

You've gotta be from a very specific part of the UK for that to rhyme cleanly, and last I checked, Judas wasn't. (Then again, he spoke Aramaic, but I think that would make his English-speaking accent neutral.)

[best12bars]

Posted: 10/29/11 at 9:48am

"You've gotta be from a very specific part of the UK for that to rhyme cleanly."

Or just be a rock & roll or pop singer from any country. I don't think any of them would pronounce a hard "r" at the end of the word "fire."

It's not like "clerk" being pronounced "clark."

Updated On: 10/29/11 at 09:48 AM

[kdogg36]

Posted: 10/29/11 at 10:25am

You've gotta be from a very specific part of the UK for that to rhyme cleanly, and last I checked, Judas wasn't. (Then again, he spoke Aramaic, but I think that would make his English-speaking accent neutral.)

Someone from the UK may want to chime in, but I don't think this is quite true; I think they rhyme in Received Pronunciation (BBC English), and in many dialects in England.

Also, a "neutral English accent" would be a rather tough thing to pin down!

[abitoftap]

Posted: 10/29/11 at 11:37am

me again as the resident Brit..

I'd tend to say fier to rhyme with messier, although whether that's just lazy diction I don't know. I'm not sure who would say fiah apart from one from the 1930s upper classes.

I guess Elaine Stritch is perhaps not the most reliable of witnesses!...

[justoldbill]

Posted: 10/29/11 at 12:05pm

Dressy Tessie Tura
Is so much more demur-ah?????????????

[Wilmingtom]

Posted: 10/29/11 at 12:07pm

"And tastes like..."

I've always thought that Mrs. L, after describing the texture of the pies and what they look like, simply can't think of anything to describe how horrible they taste.

[best12bars]

Posted: 10/29/11 at 12:21pm

"Dressy Tessie Tura
Is so much more demur-ah?????????????"

Oh, come on. That's genius! It's a character rhyme for a stripper most definitely from New Yawk, with thick accent. And it's damn funny, too.

Next you'll be wanting to correct all grammar:

"I Am Not Misbehaving" by Heavyset Waller.

[justoldbill]

Posted: 10/29/11 at 12:29pm

Once I was a schlepper,
Now I'm Miss Mazeppa?????????????

[charlesjguiteau]

Posted: 10/29/11 at 12:33pm

@Eric, you've mis-written the I Feel Pretty lyric so that it will never scan.
The correct lines are:

Keep aWAY from her. (rest)
Send for CHI-no!
The is NOT the Mar- (rest)
Ria WE know!

When you put the words on to Bernstein's syncopated music it scans perfectly.

[tommyboy]

Posted: 10/29/11 at 12:44pm

Does this have anything to do with a diphthong?

[TonyVincent]

Posted: 10/29/11 at 1:25pm

Someone from the UK may want to chime in, but I don't think this is quite true; I think they rhyme in Received Pronunciation (BBC English), and in many dialects in England.

I guess I exaggerated a bit, though I guess I didn't think "Fi-uh" was so common amongst British speakers.


Also, a "neutral English accent" would be a rather tough thing to pin down!

By neutral, I mean standard, TV-reporter American, obviously :)

I'd tend to say fier to rhyme with messier,

You'd pronounce Messiah with an "er" at the end? That I've never heard...

[broadwaybabywannabe]

Posted: 10/29/11 at 4:36pm

while i defend to the death your right to critisize anyone's lyrics, it does seem you guys are having way to much fun with THE GREATEST LYRICIST OF OUR TIME...

"Boys, that's just great. But next time, don't be so clever — "
me thinks even Sondheim gets into being so "clever"...and i say BRAVO!...otherwise what would you not-quite-as-successful song writers have to critisize?...hum?

[StageManager2]

Posted: 10/29/11 at 4:37pm

The one SWEENEY line that stands out for me is:

Think of it as thrift,
As a gift,
IF YOU GET MY DRIFT!

It sounds so modern, it takes me out of the show. Did people in mid-19th century England really say "get my drift"?

[ClapYo'Hands]

Posted: 10/29/11 at 4:51pm

"You have set them all on fire
They think they've found the new Messiah"

It sounds great if you're doing a production in Newport!

[henrikegerman]

Posted: 10/29/11 at 4:55pm

StageManager, Shakespeare used "my drift" signifying my meaning many times, including in Much Ado About Nothing.

Moreover, even if it were more contemporary, artistic license would seem to excuse it (and many other examples cited her). Lyric writing is often sublime when it's dramaturgically flawed.

Certainly anybody as prolific as Sondheim is bound to have some clunkers. Although this thread is fun, many of the examples here are either simply great, ideal for their characters, or both ("once I was a schleppa, now I'm Miss Mazeppa" ain't nothin' wrong with that one).

Who says Mollers, instead of Maaa-hler's?

A lot of people. Most New Yorkers, and certainly Joanne after several rounds of vodka stingers. And, even if they didn't, the conventions of musical comedy would allow a departure from perfect pronunciation.
Updated On: 10/29/11 at 04:55 PM

[Unknown User]

Posted: 10/29/11 at 6:47pm

CharlesGuiteau--I knew I was getting it wrong. It still kinda bugs me--the "Mar/ria we know" does sound on most cast albums like "weenoweeno" :P But OK, your point makes sense.

"while i defend to the death your right to critisize anyone's lyrics, it does seem you guys are having way to much fun with THE GREATEST LYRICIST OF OUR TIME..."

But isn't that the very point? Nearly everyone in here is doing it out of love--and any lyrics one would have quibbles with probably wouldn't even be noticed by a lesser lyricist.

[BroadwayFan12]

Posted: 10/29/11 at 7:25pm

I do think Sondheim is by far the greatest lyricist of our time, but even he came up with some clunkers.

"The heck, babe. Let's neck, babe." Really?

[Gaveston2]

Posted: 10/29/11 at 7:30pm

What's wrong with that, Broadway Fan? Sounds like working-class dialect of the period to me.

ETA I suppose he could have written:

"What luck, babe! Let's f**k, babe!"

But believe it or not, most adults didn't talk to each other that way in 1971. Updated On: 10/29/11 at 07:30 PM

[Unknown User]

Posted: 10/29/11 at 7:31pm

Ha I love that lyric. It's funny that most of the lyrics people don't like, others in turn really seem to like.

[BroadwayFan12]

Posted: 10/29/11 at 7:37pm

I just think he could have come up with a better word than neck. I'm showing my age (or lack thereof), but I asked my mother and she said nobody used the word "neck" in that context in 1971. Then again, my mom was a teenager then and Buddy would have been significantly older.

[Gaveston2]

Posted: 10/29/11 at 7:59pm

I was 17 in 1971 and BroadwayFan's mother is right: no kids were talking about 'necking". A teen in that year might have sung:

"Don't stall, babe. Let's ball, babe!"

But Buddy was the age of our parents. "Neck" is appropriate to his generation.

(ETA this reminds me of how often I simply assume a good lyricist knows his characters. Sondheim and others have criticized Hammerstein for giving Nellie the adjective "bromidic." But I always assumed it was a figure of speech from Nellie's era.)
Updated On: 10/29/11 at 07:59 PM