A Sondheim rhyme that bothers me — Page 3

As far as Mrs. Lovett's "suggested" rhyme before she sings, "Well, pity ..."

That doesn't bother me. It's in a "Musical Hall" style, which definitely plays to the audience. That's the way her character was written. She does it all through the show, with both dialogue and song (particularly Little Priest and By the Sea) and Lansbury played it that way originally.

It only comes off odd to me when the director and actress try to approach the character in a different style, ignoring the fourth wall (the "Music Hall" audience) entirely. Then this lyric and many others seem self-aware.

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abitoftap, I think what you are remembering is Elaine Stritch claiming SHE thought "Mahler's" was a kind of cake when she first learned the lyric. I don't know whether she was being literal or making a joke.

EricMontreal22, my memory is that fleas were a huge problem everywhere people kept animals (including pets) until the invention of modern flea collars, etc. (My memory goes back to late 50s, though I was a kid and not an expert on the West Side slums of New York.)

Yes, SWEENEY TODD has music hall-style numbers and Sondheim takes liberties appropriate to the form. Particularly in "Try Priest."

Which is only one reason I don't think we should take too literally Sondheim's oft repeated dictum that "rhyme always indicates intelligence and education." See LI'L ABNER, for example. Characters--particularly in comedies--have been using diction (including rhyme) beyond their realistic capabilities for centuries.

It's a nice convention that Sondheim and Harnick inherited from Hammerstein: uneducated characters don't speak or sing like they are at one of Cole Porter's cocktail parties, but it's just a convention. Musical theater (from low comedy to opera) isn't realistic in any form.

"You've gotta be from a very specific part of the UK for that to rhyme cleanly."

Or just be a rock & roll or pop singer from any country. I don't think any of them would pronounce a hard "r" at the end of the word "fire."

It's not like "clerk" being pronounced "clark."

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Updated On: 10/29/11 at 09:48 AM

me again as the resident Brit..

I'd tend to say fier to rhyme with messier, although whether that's just lazy diction I don't know. I'm not sure who would say fiah apart from one from the 1930s upper classes.

I guess Elaine Stritch is perhaps not the most reliable of witnesses!...

"And tastes like..."

I've always thought that Mrs. L, after describing the texture of the pies and what they look like, simply can't think of anything to describe how horrible they taste.

Once I was a schlepper,
Now I'm Miss Mazeppa?????????????

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Does this have anything to do with a diphthong?

while i defend to the death your right to critisize anyone's lyrics, it does seem you guys are having way to much fun with THE GREATEST LYRICIST OF OUR TIME...

"Boys, that's just great. But next time, don't be so clever — "
me thinks even Sondheim gets into being so "clever"...and i say BRAVO!...otherwise what would you not-quite-as-successful song writers have to critisize?...hum?

"You have set them all on fire
They think they've found the new Messiah"

It sounds great if you're doing a production in Newport!

CharlesGuiteau--I knew I was getting it wrong. It still kinda bugs me--the "Mar/ria we know" does sound on most cast albums like "weenoweeno" :P But OK, your point makes sense.

"while i defend to the death your right to critisize anyone's lyrics, it does seem you guys are having way to much fun with THE GREATEST LYRICIST OF OUR TIME..."

But isn't that the very point? Nearly everyone in here is doing it out of love--and any lyrics one would have quibbles with probably wouldn't even be noticed by a lesser lyricist.

What's wrong with that, Broadway Fan? Sounds like working-class dialect of the period to me.

ETA I suppose he could have written:

"What luck, babe! Let's f**k, babe!"

But believe it or not, most adults didn't talk to each other that way in 1971.

Updated On: 10/29/11 at 07:30 PM

I just think he could have come up with a better word than neck. I'm showing my age (or lack thereof), but I asked my mother and she said nobody used the word "neck" in that context in 1971. Then again, my mom was a teenager then and Buddy would have been significantly older.