A Sondheim rhyme that bothers me — Page 4

I would find it weirder if he used some slan gterm that a 17 year old in 1971 would use...

Now that I think about it, it does work for Buddy. Sondheim wins again.

jasonf, obviously "pity" was supposed to be "sh!tty." I can't believe people are having trouble with this.

Is that just revolting,
All greasy and gritty?
It looks like it's molting,
And tastes like, well, pity.

If you noticed, she pauses and substitues a more appropriate word. Mrs. Lovett always struck me as a former-day Hyacinth Bucket, who likes to think she's more genteel thatn she really is. And it's a song so, of course it's going to rhyme.

---

I'll admit -- I always thought she was saying the pies tasted like "a woman alone," etc. The whole rest of the line. They taste like the crappy situation from which they're made.

The pause doesn't have to mean the end of a thought. It can also mean an interruption or a moment of consideration. She could have had an idea of what to say, changed her mind, and said something a little different.

I think she meant to say "it tastes like sh!t," but changed her mind and changed it to "well, pity" to fit the rhyme and not to sound so crass in front of Sweeney.

---

"What's wrong with that, Broadway Fan? Sounds like working-class dialect of the period to me. "

I share the poster's distaste for that lyric. It always struck me as clumsy, ugly, and crass. In fact, I think it's the worst lyric in the show.

And as for the matter of using appropriate language, did men ever use "ta-ta" to say so long to their girlfriends?

"It's a nice convention that Sondheim and Harnick inherited from Hammerstein: uneducated characters don't speak or sing like they are at one of Cole Porter's cocktail parties, but it's just a convention. Musical theater (from low comedy to opera) isn't realistic in any form."

In some cases, I think the words themselves are more of an issue than the social class/ education level of the characters singing them. It doesn't matter if it's three New York working women or a Park Avenue matron singing "coercin' a bull;" or a peasant or the Queen of England singing "while her withers whither with her :" both lyrics are screechingly forced, and awful.

AfterEight while the whithers wither with her line is a bit much (but it is a fairy tale) coercin' a bull doesn't bother me as much--it's pastiche, it's not really meant to be how those three characters--no matter who they are--speak.

It may not be Sondheim's wittiest conceit, I grant you, and the resisting of profanity effect (a lyrical convention) works far better in the "You can't force a flower to..." line in You Must Meet My Wife, but there's nothing out of character or jarring about Mrs. L stopping herself short from saying **** in the company of a man she finds attractive whom - at that moment - she believes she's just met.

Subjunctively speaking, had Mrs. L finished through with "tastes like it's ****ty" that would have been bad, as she would have mixed a simile with a metaphor, and the use of like would have resembled a contemporary use of "like" as a filler. Either something "tastes ****tty" or it doesn't.

But we're talking, at worst, about a subjunctive flaw, not a manifest one, so who cares? In addition, it's Sondheim, had he opted for finishing the line (or in this case FINISHING THE SCAT - get it scat? (how you like to finish the scat..)? I'm here all week, folks!) he might have been able to deliver the unmentionable finish with much greater finesse than "tastes like it's ****ty."

It looks like it's molting
And tastes [substitute internal rhyme for like which is an unappetizing adjective applicable to a pie} and ****ty.

Now what that word to substitute for "like" would be beats me, but if anyone could come up with it, Steve could.

Of course we can quibble that if that were the case, why would Mrs. L have started the line with "and tastes like" if she wasn't going to use that phrase, but perhaps that could be justified as her cautious about face from the clause ending with the profane the split second before she might have gone a bit too far with her handsome new acquaintance. She may be a woman of limited wind but she is certainly quick witted, as is evident throughout the work (and especially in A Little Priest).

As to what comes next, whether "pity" is Mrs. L's apology for almost going there before a pause describing herself as a woman alone with limited wind, or whether it refers to her desperate state as a woman with limited wind, or whether she is begging her customer's pardon for almost using bad language and at the same time asking to be pitied because of the state of desperation she describes, with the pause for breath a needed proof of her having limited wind, or a put on proof of her having limited wind, it works like a charm. There really is nothing to complain about on that.... er, score.

Updated On: 10/30/11 at 08:02 AM

Mrs. Lovett changes thought several times in that song.

Do you think she really means "Keep avoiding no you don't!"? She stops one thought and starts another mid-sentence.

"It tastes like, well, SH!TTY." She starts the thought, hesitates, then changes to what she really means. But she never gets to that last word, because she starts another thought on "well" instead with "Well, pity a woman alone."

That's the way her addled brain works. It's cute and quirky this early on, then deadly and evil later in the story.

I still think these "character lyrics" are brilliant.

EDIT: By the way, this style of lyric writing is a direct nod to his mentor Oscar Hammerstein, who so famously wrote:

"Because he's ... I don't know ... because he's just my Bill."

That was for Show Boat in 1927.

---

Updated On: 10/30/11 at 09:49 AM

*sigh*

---