A Sondheim rhyme that bothers me- Page 4

Posted: 10/29/11 at 9:18pm

Right, in 71 Buddy was, what mid-late 40s? The term fits.

Posted: 10/29/11 at 9:19pm

I would find it weirder if he used some slan gterm that a 17 year old in 1971 would use...

[abitoftap]

Posted: 10/29/11 at 9:28pm

The heck, babe. Let's neck, babe..perfect for Buddy's character

[BroadwayFan12]

Posted: 10/29/11 at 9:31pm

Now that I think about it, it does work for Buddy. Sondheim wins again.

[jasonf]

Posted: 10/29/11 at 9:38pm

Isn't the "Well pity a woman alone" lyric along the same line as the one from ALNM: "You can't force a flower...don't finish that sentence."
I seem to remember hearing an interview or something with Sondheim where he was asked what should have been there and his answer was THAT line was supposed to be there. There is no rhyme to finish it because the line in the song was "don't finish that sentence." It doesn't matter what he would have said. Wouldn't that be the same in Sweeney?

And maybe I'm hallucinating having heard that...

[StageManager2]

Posted: 10/29/11 at 10:10pm

jasonf, obviously "pity" was supposed to be "sh!tty." I can't believe people are having trouble with this.

Is that just revolting,
All greasy and gritty?
It looks like it's molting,
And tastes like, well, pity.

If you noticed, she pauses and substitues a more appropriate word. Mrs. Lovett always struck me as a former-day Hyacinth Bucket, who likes to think she's more genteel thatn she really is. And it's a song so, of course it's going to rhyme.

[jasonf]

Posted: 10/29/11 at 10:17pm

I don't think there's any obviously about it.

The pause alone indicates that the thought is cut off. It's not just "well, pity" and that's the end. It's, "Well, pity a woman alone." The line works as one thought. I don't think for a second Mrs. Lovett would hesitate from saying "****ty" if it was what was meant.
The line makes perfect sense as written - there's no REASON for it to be anything other than what it is as written.
She's NOT saying it tastes like "pity."

[Taryn]

Posted: 10/29/11 at 11:04pm

I'll admit -- I always thought she was saying the pies tasted like "a woman alone," etc. The whole rest of the line. They taste like the crappy situation from which they're made.

[jasonf]

Posted: 10/29/11 at 11:07pm

It's all in the pause.

"And tastes like..." PAUSE
"Well, pity
A woman alone
With limited wind."

She wouldn't say it "tastes like ****ty" anyway!

Maybe if Mrs. Lovett was a modern teenager - "it tastes, like, ****ty" :)

[Taryn]

Posted: 10/29/11 at 11:26pm

The pause doesn't have to mean the end of a thought. It can also mean an interruption or a moment of consideration. She could have had an idea of what to say, changed her mind, and said something a little different.

[jasonf]

Posted: 10/29/11 at 11:48pm

I don't know enough about music to know if the answer lies in there, but I know enough to know that "well, ****ty" wouldn't fit the music as written either...

[StageManager2]

Posted: 10/29/11 at 11:57pm

I think she meant to say "it tastes like sh!t," but changed her mind and changed it to "well, pity" to fit the rhyme and not to sound so crass in front of Sweeney.

[chewy5000]

Posted: 10/30/11 at 12:27am

This is ridiculous! What am I doing here?

[After Eight]

Posted: 10/30/11 at 12:29am

"What's wrong with that, Broadway Fan? Sounds like working-class dialect of the period to me. "

I share the poster's distaste for that lyric. It always struck me as clumsy, ugly, and crass. In fact, I think it's the worst lyric in the show.

And as for the matter of using appropriate language, did men ever use "ta-ta" to say so long to their girlfriends?

[musialman]

Posted: 10/30/11 at 1:08am

Sondheim is such a bro. Chill.

[After Eight]

Posted: 10/30/11 at 5:45am

"It's a nice convention that Sondheim and Harnick inherited from Hammerstein: uneducated characters don't speak or sing like they are at one of Cole Porter's cocktail parties, but it's just a convention. Musical theater (from low comedy to opera) isn't realistic in any form."

In some cases, I think the words themselves are more of an issue than the social class/ education level of the characters singing them. It doesn't matter if it's three New York working women or a Park Avenue matron singing "coercin' a bull;" or a peasant or the Queen of England singing "while her withers whither with her :" both lyrics are screechingly forced, and awful.

[best12bars]

Posted: 10/30/11 at 6:21am

For those of you who don't get that Mrs. Lovett was stopping herself from saying "sh!tty," I feel sorry for you.

Sondheim wants the audience to "go there" in their minds, even if she doesn't finish the thought. It's called a joke. That particular song is full of them.

Updated On: 10/30/11 at 06:21 AM

Posted: 10/30/11 at 7:33am

AfterEight while the whithers wither with her line is a bit much (but it is a fairy tale) coercin' a bull doesn't bother me as much--it's pastiche, it's not really meant to be how those three characters--no matter who they are--speak.

[After Eight]

Posted: 10/30/11 at 8:02am

Eric,

The phrase is a pastiche, or the song?

The song isn't bad, but that phrase is forced and awful.
Updated On: 10/30/11 at 08:02 AM

[henrikegerman]

Posted: 10/30/11 at 8:02am

It may not be Sondheim's wittiest conceit, I grant you, and the resisting of profanity effect (a lyrical convention) works far better in the "You can't force a flower to..." line in You Must Meet My Wife, but there's nothing out of character or jarring about Mrs. L stopping herself short from saying **** in the company of a man she finds attractive whom - at that moment - she believes she's just met.

Subjunctively speaking, had Mrs. L finished through with "tastes like it's ****ty" that would have been bad, as she would have mixed a simile with a metaphor, and the use of like would have resembled a contemporary use of "like" as a filler. Either something "tastes ****tty" or it doesn't.

But we're talking, at worst, about a subjunctive flaw, not a manifest one, so who cares? In addition, it's Sondheim, had he opted for finishing the line (or in this case FINISHING THE SCAT - get it scat? (how you like to finish the scat..)? I'm here all week, folks!) he might have been able to deliver the unmentionable finish with much greater finesse than "tastes like it's ****ty."

It looks like it's molting
And tastes [substitute internal rhyme for like which is an unappetizing adjective applicable to a pie} and ****ty.

Now what that word to substitute for "like" would be beats me, but if anyone could come up with it, Steve could.

Of course we can quibble that if that were the case, why would Mrs. L have started the line with "and tastes like" if she wasn't going to use that phrase, but perhaps that could be justified as her cautious about face from the clause ending with the profane the split second before she might have gone a bit too far with her handsome new acquaintance. She may be a woman of limited wind but she is certainly quick witted, as is evident throughout the work (and especially in A Little Priest).

As to what comes next, whether "pity" is Mrs. L's apology for almost going there before a pause describing herself as a woman alone with limited wind, or whether it refers to her desperate state as a woman with limited wind, or whether she is begging her customer's pardon for almost using bad language and at the same time asking to be pitied because of the state of desperation she describes, with the pause for breath a needed proof of her having limited wind, or a put on proof of her having limited wind, it works like a charm. There really is nothing to complain about on that.... er, score.


Updated On: 10/30/11 at 08:02 AM

[kdogg36]

Posted: 10/30/11 at 9:46am

He could have said, "Rushing to a lecture on optical art, wishing it would pass."

That sounds better to me, but alas it doesn't fit the song's subtle rhyme scheme ("class" rhymes with "gas" and "pass").

[best12bars]

Posted: 10/30/11 at 9:49am

Mrs. Lovett changes thought several times in that song.

Do you think she really means "Keep avoiding no you don't!"? She stops one thought and starts another mid-sentence.

"It tastes like, well, SH!TTY." She starts the thought, hesitates, then changes to what she really means. But she never gets to that last word, because she starts another thought on "well" instead with "Well, pity a woman alone."

That's the way her addled brain works. It's cute and quirky this early on, then deadly and evil later in the story.

I still think these "character lyrics" are brilliant.

EDIT: By the way, this style of lyric writing is a direct nod to his mentor Oscar Hammerstein, who so famously wrote:

"Because he's ... I don't know ... because he's just my Bill."

That was for Show Boat in 1927.

Updated On: 10/30/11 at 09:49 AM

[jasonf]

Posted: 10/30/11 at 10:04am

Like I said before, I don't believe she would say "It tastes like, well, ****ty" -- that simply doesn't fit. Like henrik said, why would she say that rather than a simile that actually fits?

There's no question she changes her thought there, but the point isn't so much the character intention as the songwriter's intention. If Sondheim wanted her to say ****ty, she would have. He's nearing the end of the song. The reverse to "pity a woman alone" gets him there. I've no doubt that if he wanted her say ****ty, he would have.

However, the word like, to me, indicates a thought OTHER than that. Right before that line we have

"Is that just revolting
All greasy and gritty
It looks LIKE its molting
And tastes like-"

The "well" is part of the next line. Saying it "tastes like, well, ****ty" doesn't even fit HER intention on the line. Sondheim's, like in ALNM, was to use the rhyme for the change in thought. There was never a "this WAS going here, but I'm going to change it." This is the lyric he came up with, so THIS is what he meant.

[best12bars]

Posted: 10/30/11 at 10:05am

*sigh*

[hushpuppy]

Posted: 10/30/11 at 2:12pm

"Rushing to their classes in optical art, wishing it would pass" always reminded me of my mother's cousin Rose. When we'd go over to their house in the 60's, there was always some new piece of sculpture on the table or artwork on the wall. When my mother would ask Rose's husband what it was he'd roll his eyes and say 'Oh Rose got bored again so she's taking a class in Native American pottery" or "Rose decided that wall needed a new painting so she has been taking a class in still life. Isn't it ghastly? Now, can I get you a martini?"

So "classes in optical art" makes sense to me. Bored housewives with too much time on their hands.