Agent complains: Minorities are 'putting talented white performers out of work ... and it stinks' — Page 3

qolbinau said: "The vision should always be unless a role specifically calls for a race, cast the best person for the role regardless of race. Same for the workplace.Maybe easier said than done though. It’s interesting because it felt like ‘affirmative action’ type ideas went out of fashion 10years ago but are now coming back full force. One of the unintended consequences is it does cause people to question whether you only got the job because of race or other factors such as gender. This wouldn’t be an issue if the factors weren’t part of the selection criteria - which is what the ideal vision for no discrimination looks like. Treat individuals as individuals not as group identities"

True, equality starts where selection criteria end. And that means the possibility of all situations in casting, also a production with an all white cast. As long as it is a 1 way street, equality will never exist. People who keep thinking in a 1 way street are the core of this problem without realizing it. This casting director deserves an award.

I'm actually on Dave's side here- that agent comment may have been out of line, but casting people just for the sake of appearing diverse is a reality and needs to be addressed. In my personal experience, I don't think it's the norm, but it happens. I think that's what we can gleam out of it. Don't just blindly cast people for the sake of their race either way. The main intent of the agent's comment is not something I personally agree with, but I do agree with Dave's position that casting people just for the sake of diversity in casting is not ideal.

No one should lose a job opportunity because of race. No one should gain a job opportunity because of race.

seaweedjstubbs said: "RippedMan said: "I can kind of see Dave's point, but I also feel like that is a step that needs to happen to get out on the other side.

But as someone who is totally inclusive and open it does irk me to see shows like "Dear White People." I don't know, just rubs me the wrong way, but I guess, based on race, I'm just thrown in with the lot no matter how open minded."

Have you ever watched Dear White People or the movie it's based on? Or are you just judging it off of the title? It's probably not the show/movie you think it is."



Exactly. You definetly cannot judge this show by its title. So many layers and it will be interesting to see where season tbree takes us.

I don't think you'll ever see a black Glinda, because in Wicked that character typifies white, straight, commercial mediocrity. This contrasts her with Elphaba, whose birth defect of green skin, combined with her revolutionary politics, makes her a stand-in for racial, gender and sexual minorities at large.

I usually have an issue discussing race issues on this board mainly because of like two-to-three people. However, in this case, I do have an issue with BAME casting because that just seems so superficial. What do black, Asian, Middle-Eastern, and or just generically "ethnic" have in common and what does it mean exactly? I think there is a true POC representation problem that needs to be addressed. I also think it's great that POC have more opportunities to play roles that are such a big part of theater canon that after studying those roles since literature class in junior high to drama school (long time), that now these roles are not out of their reach.

But there is a problem if people just think a simple solution is to ensure there's a POC in a cast of an ensemble just there to avoid criticism of having an all-white cast. I mean having a show with an all-white cast is sort of needless these days because "the best person for the role" could mean all kinds of things and let's not pretend there's some absolute, single standard to measure that because audiences are diverse in their opinions. Doing it the way where you're asking for BAME seems a very blatant tokenization where you're only casting based on the color of the skin for a role that doesn't call for that, and I do think that's wrong. I think being more mindful in your casting and trying to help underrepresented POCs who tend to be looked over for roles historically due to no fault of their own due to their skin color or ethnicity gain equal opportunity is wonderful. However, having a casting notice call for BAME just seems wrong to me. However, I do prefer an over correction over just doing what we have always done and thus the problem of under representation just continues to exist.

Now with all that said, I have a few bones to pick.

First off, I wish a certain poster would stop using Asians to rail against black people. As an Asian-American myself working in public interest law and have had many conversations regarding the model minority myth and how Asians have been used historically to downgrade other POCs while still denying Asian-Americans equal opportunity in management and in gaining higher status, I beg you to please just stop. You're just using a tool used to put blacks down.

Secondly, I wish we could have a real discussion of what people mean by "equal" and how skin color should not matter. Historically, that is how it's been and we see the cycle as explained earlier in this thread...which is probably why some have adopted wrong-headed measures because they have to over correct. Usually when people say "let the best person get the job" they don't understand that that has been used as a code to keep certain people out and keep certain people in power or to keep giving them opportunities. This "color-blindness" usually results in actual unequal treatment and people don't notice it because they just automatically assume that white people are usually the best and they are the default. However, when a minority actor gets cast, whether or not there is an affirmative action or not, their qualifications and whatnot are always questioned, even if they perform well. That is why Sonia Sotomayor, unlike Clarence Thomas, welcomed and embraced her Affirmative Action status because she knew she'd be questioned no matter what (and she has) and she understood that she gained an opportunity she would not have received otherwise despite her already impressive qualifications to enter Yale Law School and it lead her to the career she had. Thomas became bitter about the experience but Sotomayor seems more mindful that there were just so many obstacles that she had to face compared to her peers at Yale that Yale offered to give her a little assistance to help her be put on equal footing because she already had the qualifications (Princeton grad, etc.).

Third, I'm sort of happy the agent said what she said because all the push back is clearly all about maintaining power and seeing equality as a threat to maintaining that power and privilege. That is what she was pretty much expressing even if I ended up agreeing with her conclusion that BAME casting seems off. However, her rationale and mine seem absolutely different and that is what matters.

Updated On: 5/9/18 at 09:27 AM

The issue I have with Dave's position on this this is that he's coming at this from the standpoint of numerical ethics. I don't think it's possible to box this diversity in art issue into numbers nor is that really the point. This isn't necessarily a numbers game.

Art can only thrive and expand when it's fed with new ideas, new viewpoints, new voices - a diversity of ideas. I - and most others, I believe - will now find it odd to see only caucasian artists involved in any piece of art unless it is a distinct decision. That's because we've moved past the whitewashed (not meant critically) theater we've been experiencing for decades and we are craving new ideas. Those new ideas are coming from diversity. Diversity of experience, opinion, etc.

For example, we've seen a successful new take on classical American plays form European/Scandinavian artists thanks to Ivo Van Hove and the Toneelgroep. While white, those artists are offering a new take on the classics thanks to opinions and ideas that most American artists would not have discovered. The same can be said by having black actors take on the roles of white founding fathers, etc. We can also see that the old tropes of race - like Vietnamese seen through the eyes of white Europeans/Brits - are no longer successful as proven by the relative financial and artistic failure of the Miss Saigon revival. Whereas we all assumed that revival would potentially have a new take on the story, by not bringing in new voices and ideas, the show came across as yellow-faced buffoonery.

This agent is looking at art through an economic lens. Perhaps this agent has a primarily white rooster of clients and is finding work harder to come by because the medium is expanding into new territories that this agent does not represent. As said by another artist, this does not mean that non-white actors are taking jobs from white actors. This means the medium is evolving into something else as it always has and as any art form will in order to keeping moving.

I also find it odd that the agent is not voicing concern about celebrity/Hollywood names taking nearly every role on stage these days. That - in my mind - would be a greater concern for any theatrical agent. But perhaps that's just a completely different subject that shouldn't be raised on this thread.

Dave does raise a valid point in the lack of Asian representation on stage. I'm not just referring to China, Japan, Vietnam, the Philippines, but also the Middle East as a whole! Asia is sorely underrepresented. As is South America.

In the end, I believe that trying to make this a numbers game will never help argue against the topic of diverse representation on stage. Art is so much more than that.

The agent and those who support her point of view are essentially arguing that the default casting for all roles is a white actor, and that only white actors are cast based on merit. In this formulation, any time a nonwhite actor is cast in a part, they're taking a role away from a more deserving white actor. That, of course, is BS. There's also the suggestion that only white actors are cast based on merit, and that whenever a nonwhite actor gets a part, it's due to tokenism/affirmative action. Also BS.

Just to be clear, the only posts that have been deleted from this thread are ones that were personally attacking other people or using profanity, as those things are violations of our rules. All other posts discussing the topic of the thread have remained. In fact, in an effort to maintain the discourse in as productive of a manner as possible, whenever feasible, we have removed personal attacks/profanity from posts, but left the rest of the message up (the edit is noted in the post) in an effort to keep passionate responses in the discussion.

As much as we might personally disagree with certain posts and points of view in this thread, as long as the discussion stays out of profanity and personal attacks, it will remain up and open for now. If there are things in the thread that you think violate the board's rules, please let us know either by private message, or by using the options at the bottom of specific posts.

You are assuming he is arguing in good faith, which he is not.

Dave28282 said: "If 10 actors audition for a role, of which one black actor, there is a 90% chance the black actor does not get the role, based purely on equal statistics. Which would mean that there is a 90% chance that anyshow does not have a black actor, if based purely on talent."

Others are doing a fine job of critiquing the substance of your nonsense, but I need to inject some math here. Let's say a show has ten roles, that 10% of the actors auditioning for each role are African American, the rest are white, and the race of each actor cast in a role is a matter of chance. In this case, there would be a 10% chance (0.1 probability) for an African American actor to be cast, and a 90% (0.9 probability) chance that a white actor would be cast, in each role. This means that the chance of white actors being cast in every role is 0.9^10, or about 0.35 (35%). There's a 65% chance that at least one of the African American actors would be cast, purely by chance.

ScottyDoesn'tKnow2 said: "What about posts that really are blatant attacks on POC and targeting black people specifically? Those posts have been left up in numerous threads."

Scotty, going back through this thread, while I personally might disagree with any number of the posts (and even find some offensive), nothing in this thread seems to rise to the level of an attack. One of the reasons that message boards exist is for people to discuss and debate things with people whom they do not see eye-to-eye on. Unfortunately, so much of the internet has become an echo-chamber for what one already believes.

So, it is no surprise that when issues as personally held as racial representation are brought up in a public forum, that people will disagree, and very likely will end up being offended; and yes-- as people on both sides of this discussion have stated-- you might find the other side to be racist.

Therefore, our options are to completely shut down any discussion of these types of hot-button issues all together, delete any posts that we disagree with, or to monitor and remove the posts that violate our rules, and allow posters to have a debate that-- while it might not change anyone's mind-- will at least give everyone the opportunity to voice their opinion in a constructive manner.

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I think this highlights a blindspot in the application of the rules: trolls that are inflammatory without otherwise breaking the rules (ie attacking people, etc) slide under the radar.