Dance numbers that sound great on CD but disappoint onstage- Page 3

[CarlosAlberto]

Posted: 7/25/12 at 11:45am

Okay I'm re-reading the post again...and listening to the song as well. The thing about America is that every jab referencing American and Puerto Rican situations is based on some kind of facts or truth..but that Ole just doesnt ring true...

[CarlosAlberto]

Posted: 7/25/12 at 11:50am

I'm not sure if the original intention of the "Ole" was to be self-mocking. Either way I personally don't like it.

[best12bars]

Posted: 7/25/12 at 11:55am

Fair enough. You're obviously not the only one bugged by it. But I see the irony in it and always have. It made me laugh (with them, not at them) even when I was younger. I got the joke.

I even think some of the "joke" is reflected in the choreography with the finger snaps, petticoat swishing, and exaggerated "Aye! Aye! Aye!" I see that as poking fun at the perception as well.

It walks a fine line between cliche, irony, and celebration of culture. But that's the whole number (song and dance).

But I can also see that if the joke isn't clear, it can upset people. Perhaps Robbins could have substituted some other word or words shouted en masse at the end to get the vocal "button" he wanted.

Personally, I'm glad he stuck to his guns with "Ole!"

EDIT: Robbins and Gennaro went further with the exaggerated choreography and staging in the film, when he added the men into the number. He even has them imitating a bull fight at one point, skipping like girls, and punching the hell out of each other. It's a complex expression of emotions ... which is why I love it so much.

Updated On: 7/25/12 at 11:55 AM

[PalJoey]

Posted: 7/25/12 at 12:32pm

PJ, Were you instructed to call Lenny "Maestro?" I've never heard of production staff members having to address people (Even the greats like Sondheim and Robbins) as if they were their third grade teachers. Except for George Abbott, of course.

It wasn't about third-grade. It was about old-school theatrical politesse and it was clearly from the Mr. Abbott line. Ruth Mitchell was one of the main producers of the revival and she had been the stage manager in 1957. She, of course, had worked with Hal Prince for decades and he still shared offices with George Abbott.

But it was only enforced for the four creators of the show. The cast was allowed to call co-director Gerald Freedman and co-choreographers Tom Abbott, Lee Theodore and Peter Gennaro by their first names.

And, again, about the "ole!"--it's not a lyric written by Sondheim. It was added to the end of the song in the choreography. I don't think Sondheim has ever weighed in on the matter, but Arthur (of course) never missed an opportunity to criticize Jerry Robbins.

And as far as the boys dancing in "America," that was the way Peter Gennaro orginally staged the number for the show in 1957. Then Robbins came in and watched a run-through and removed the boys. He never explained why--he was Jerome Robbins; he didn't have to--but I always got the feeling that he wanted Anita to have a bigger impact on the audience in the first act and that he thought that, given the overall grimness of the show, it would benefit from having an all-girl number as contrast.

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 7/25/12 at 3:50pm

I always thought it was done to give the Shark women a chance to show off--while the Shark men don't hav e a solo dance number, they do already do significantly more dancing, even by that point in the show. Not that I think Robbins would have changed it simply for the thoughtful reason of giving the men a breather backstage, of course, but...

Best, while I agree with your take on the current state of the majority of Broadway choreography, I'm not sure how much it can be blamed on reality tv--at least solely. As a ballet nut, I know that in the late 19th century many balletomanes were bemoaning the fact that ballet had become more about athletic feats than dance--particularly with the famous Italian ballerinas who often were invited to open the Russian ballets (ie Pierina Legnani and her 32 fouettes in the 1895 revised version of Swan Lake Petipa and Ivanov did--which is the basis for most productions now. Those turns have been partially justified dramatically, but Pierina shoved them into every ballet she did, like Cinderella two years before, simply because she was known for them). I guess I just mean that the argument isn't new to the world of dance. But we definitely seem to be missing great, theatrical choreographers in the commercial Broadway stage--more than any other era of musicals I can think of, going back to when choreography was taken more seriously in the 40s (and arguably 30s).

I do agree with you completely about the use of Ole--I always thought it as one more ironic jab, like some of the choreography, but I admit I obviously don't have the background Carlos has.

[justoldbill]

Posted: 7/25/12 at 10:11pm

I would say about ninty-five percent of the audiences sitting through ninty-five percent of the productions of WEST SIDE STORY over the last fifty-five years have never made any such linguistic connection with the word "ole!", thinking it merely Spanish and not strictly Mexican, Puerto Rican or any other form of Spanish patois- nor would they care. I know I don't.
Robbins was right. It's not a linguistics class, it's a dance number. What's important is the moment; the button. Who can come up with one better?

Updated On: 7/25/12 at 10:11 PM

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 7/25/12 at 10:29pm

^^^Would you feel the same if the choreographer for "Belly Up to the Bar, Boys" in THE UNSINKABLE MOLLY BROWN had decided to have the dancers yell "Pip! Pip! And cheerio!" at the end of the number? How about if the title number of OKLAHOMA! were changed to end, "Oklahoma: Oy! Oy!"? Wouldn't you at least think, "Huh?"

I don't think Robbins' additions constitute a hate crime, but they are the sort of thing that many Latinos and other educated people find off-putting. And is that what you want to do in that number, tell the audience that all Latinos "look alike" to you?

I DO understand that such issues of representation weren't well discussed in the mid-1950s and maybe we just leave the show alone and view it as a classic. I'm not accusing Robbins of abnormal insensitivity for his day. But I also wouldn't be heartbroken if a more "Puerto Rican" solution were found.

[justoldbill]

Posted: 7/25/12 at 10:35pm

Well, it's obvious YOU can't come up with one better.
Pip, pip and chim, chim, cher-ee.

Updated On: 7/25/12 at 10:35 PM

[PalJoey]

Posted: 7/25/12 at 10:37pm

What's important is the moment; the button. Who can come up with one better?

Exactly. I think if Mr. Robbins could have, Mr. Robbins would have.

He was smart enough to understand that cultural sensitivities had change from 1957 to 1980--he was very attuned to things like that--but the effectiveness and precision of his staging was even more important to him.

And every time I saw Debbie and the girls do that number (which must have been over 100 times), it seemed thrilling and perfect.

(The same goes for the Dance at the Gym and "Cool" and the ballet--WITH the nightmare!)

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 7/25/12 at 10:46pm

It should always have the nightmare.

Gaveston--do you not think there's any argument then that the Ole fits in with the other "latin" stereotypes they are mocking throughout the number though? Sadly, I do think even now a lot of people I know would probably not think twice about Ole not being Peurto Rico, which maybe shows that the joke doesn't register as it should, but I think it's like has been mentioned on here (ie in the movie choreography the matador stuff, etc--broad latin stereotypes in general).

[After Eight]

Posted: 7/25/12 at 10:48pm

In Noel Coward's Sail Away, Nancy and Barnaby sing the following lyrics at the end of "When You Want Me:"

"There's really nothing more to say.
Except that I should like to stay
With you forever and a day.
Ole."

[justoldbill]

Posted: 7/25/12 at 10:48pm

I'll bet Galveston HATES "Spanish Rose".

Updated On: 7/25/12 at 10:48 PM

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 7/25/12 at 10:50pm

Well, it's obvious YOU can't come up with one better.

I have never claimed to be an expert on Puerto Rican song and dance. Why the hostility? I merely said that if a better solution could be found, I would support it.

As for Robbins, I'm sure he did the best he could with what he knew at the time. I wasn't knocking the guy and I think I went out of my way to make that clear.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 7/25/12 at 10:55pm

Gaveston--do you not think there's any argument then that the Ole fits in with the other "latin" stereotypes they are mocking throughout the number though? Sadly, I do think even now a lot of people I know would probably not think twice about Ole not being Peurto Rico, which maybe shows that the joke doesn't register as it should, but I think it's like has been mentioned on here (ie in the movie choreography the matador stuff, etc--broad latin stereotypes in general).

I suppose, Eric. But as Carlos points out, the other Latino stereotypes are specifically Puerto Rican, not just general references to anywhere in the Spanish-speaking world.

Anyway, I don't think this is one of the great political or aesthetic issues of our time. I still think it's a brilliant number and I used to use a clip from the film to show how far dance had come when I lectured on musical theater history.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 7/25/12 at 11:04pm

I'll bet Galveston HATES "Spanish Rose".

It's Gaveston, as in the character from Marlowe's EDWARD II (also an actual person in English history), not GaLveston, as in the city in Texas.

As for "Spanish Rose", it's not my FAVORITE song, but I don't have a problem with the representation of Latinos. The lyric begins:

"I'm just a Spanish tamale according to Mae
Right off the boat from the tropics far far away
Which is kind of funny
Since where I come from is Allentown, Pa
Spanish!
Ok, Mae, I'll be Spanish
Right after I've married Alberto...."

The entire song is established as a parody of a Albert's Anglo mother and HER stereotypes of Latinos. Rose, who is entirely assimilated, sings that she is going to out-stereotype even her mother-in-law to be. It's a sort of comic revenge.

I have no problem with that. Nothing in the song is intended to refer to actual Latinos, just to stereotypes.

I'll grant the point that "America" is also satirical, but it arises out of a very different dramatic context.

[justoldbill]

Posted: 7/25/12 at 11:11pm

My apologies for the incorrect spelling, but we're all here to have a good time. If I could phonetically "Googie Gomez" my way through this thread, I just might.

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 7/25/12 at 11:32pm

I feel it's worth pointing out that, according to Nigel Simeone's West Side Story, Landmarks in Music book/analysis apparently Bernstein himself got criticized for some who said he made the music for America too Spanish (ie European Spanish) and that it wasn't authentic, to which he basically said he didn't care...

[PalJoey]

Posted: 7/26/12 at 12:11am

Ahhhh...that's one of the dark secrets of the score! Bernstein used elements of ALL Hispanic cultures and wove them into his own blend. The score has bits and pieces of sounds a poor girl from San Juan would never have heard. You can even find Brazilian touches that aren't even Hispanic!

That was the beauty of the score--and one of the things that took it away from kitchen-sink naturalism.

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 7/26/12 at 2:53am

I definitely agree with you, myself--but very well said PJ!

(Of coure throw into that the Jet's performing what was meant to be a Venetian gavotte in Candide or whatever, for Krupke )

[CarlosAlberto]

Posted: 7/26/12 at 5:29am

Now that someone brought up SPANISH ROSE I have to laugh because there is one line in the original lyric to that song that truly does NOT work anymore - - -

He'll wear the cutest moos-tache and sombrero
My handsome latin lover from the BRONX

I am guessing that at the time the show was written the Bronx did not have a heavy hispanic population. Nowadays it does, with the majority of the latino population being of Puerto Rican descent so that specific line "My handsome latin lover from the BRONX" has lost it's original intent.

As a matter of fact I believe the whole number was given a lyrical re-do for the 1995 television adaptation starring Vanessa Williams and Jason Alexander.

[CarlosAlberto]

Posted: 7/26/12 at 5:33am

My apologies for the incorrect spelling, but we're all here to have a good time. If I could phonetically "Googie Gomez" my way through this thread, I just might..

I will - - -

Ju see Misterrr de fack is de number in Eh-wess Eh-sigh Eh-storry is no correh Puerto Rick-uns do no eh-say "Ole"...pendejo...I will eh-tear all ju eyes out!

Updated On: 7/26/12 at 05:33 AM

[PalJoey]

Posted: 7/26/12 at 6:36am

My handsome latin lover from the BRONX

I always thought she was referring to me.

[moncruzz]

Posted: 7/26/12 at 6:45pm

I always imagined Dancing Through Life as a dancing song, imagine how disappointed I was to find Fiyero just prancing around a statue.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 7/26/12 at 7:03pm

That was the beauty of the score--and one of the things that took it away from kitchen-sink naturalism.

Which is consistent with Laurents' refusal to use correct street slang because it would date the show too quickly.

If I seemed like the Deputy from the P.C. Police earlier, I apologize. I'm not particularly bothered by WSS. I do think, however, that if we're going to appropriate elements from other cultures (particularly those often subjected to stereotyping), we should try to do so thoughtfully. I have no reason to believe the creators of WSS didn't do exactly that, within the limits of their era.

***

Confidential to Carlos: does "pendejo" transcend Latin cultures? I grew up in Florida with Cuban and Puerto Rican teachers and never heard the word until I discovered Chicano literature.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 7/26/12 at 10:08pm

Which is consistent with Laurents' refusal to use correct street slang because it would date the show too quickly.

Ironic, but the aspect of West Side Story that dated the most quickly and the most painfully is Laurents's invented slang.

It's phrases like "frabba-jabba" and "daddy-o" and "gassin', crabbin'" and "cracko-jacko" that make the Jets hard to take as a gang--not the dance steps they do.

Klunker lines like these sound like they came out of the Bowery Boys or the Little Rascals:

"As a matter of factuality, sir, we suspicion the job was done by a cop."

"Where the devil are they? Are we havin' a war council tonight or
ain't we?"

"I and Velma aint kid stuff, neither. Are we, Vel?"

And so on...