Dance numbers that sound great on CD but disappoint onstage- Page 2

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 7/24/12 at 9:48pm

Didn't Birch have that role before Fuller?

Yes. For A LITTLE NIGHT MUSIC, CANDIDE and PACIFIC OVERTURES. The first two weren't really seen as "dance" shows and the latter was sui generis. I didn't mean to take anything away from her fine work on those shows.

But I suspect you know you were taking my remarks on Fuller a tad too literally.

The point is Prince had a history of working with Jerome Robbins AND Michael Bennett. I doubt either Birch or Fuller could really compete, which isn't to say they didn't do some excellent work.

Updated On: 7/24/12 at 09:48 PM

[justoldbill]

Posted: 7/24/12 at 10:51pm

Keep in mind that when dance music is recorded (if at all), it is often recorded at a swifter tempo for time-limit purposes. Even today's CD's have only so much space to capture a score. Sondheim has referred to this in discussing his tempo choices (in Bernstein's absence) for the OBC of WEST SIDE STORY. On the record, the dance music is much faster than can actually be danced to, a trap Bernstein himself fell into on hearing the slower tempos Johnny Green used in recording the film score.
Green was conducting the dance music to the dictates of Jerome Robbins, whose dancers had to dance to it. Eventually, Bernstein saw the light.

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 7/24/12 at 10:51pm

Yes, it was a weak attempt at a joke (although I must say, judging from the Japanese telecast, Birch did some impressive work for Pacific Overtures that doesn't get mentioned often). It's interesting that Prince again much more recently.

And your point is a fair one.

[After Eight]

Posted: 7/24/12 at 11:01pm

"I'll never be a big Jerry Herman fan,"

Well, what a surprise.

"but I agree that the staging is magnificent."

Great. You grant it your approval. Now we can all go to sleep happy.

[jv92]

Posted: 7/24/12 at 11:04pm

After Eight, I am convinced that you are somehow in Jerry Herman's inner circle. I would have said you ARE Jerry Herman, but I don't think Mr. Herman is quite as angry a man as you are.

[After Eight]

Posted: 7/24/12 at 11:15pm

^

I'm in no one's inner circle.

I simply know the difference between good and bad.

And between great and garbage.

[TheLadyoftheWood]

Posted: 7/25/12 at 12:33am

One man's trash is another man's treasure. Everything is not black and white, there are 50 shades of grey.

[TrulyOutrageousJem]

Posted: 7/25/12 at 1:52am

Quiche2, yeah, I just remember listening to the album for so long (because it was sold out for months and I was still in college doing the lottery thing) and expected a big dance number and was left disappointed. I don't even remember what they actually do in the number, I just remember being excited for it and thinking "that's it!?" It may be staged great actually, it just didn't live up to what I imagined they'd do with it and so for me it was disappointing

[nicthediva]

Posted: 7/25/12 at 2:01am

I've always had a feeling "What You Want" from Legally Blonde always sounds mediocre ON CD but knocks it out of the park ON STAGE. There's something about the energy on that stage at that moment that makes it so... amazing.

Wanted to switch it around.

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 7/25/12 at 5:59am

OldBill, that's a good point and Sondheim's correspondances to Bernstein about the recording, as published, are pretty fascinating (Bernstein couldn't attend the sessions). Besides what you said, it also was a habit of Godard Lieberson as he felt that dance music often needed a faster tempo when recorded to capture some of the excitement that the visuals would help with in the theatre.

AfterEight, I'm glad I helped your sleep! Cheers. (For the record, I think Herman has a lot of habit, he's just not really my bag--the same way Sondheim isn't yours, although I'm not sure you would even give him the credit of saying he has talent).

[CarlosAlberto]

Posted: 7/25/12 at 6:44am

The choreography for "Buenos Aires" in the original Broadway production of EVITA was just a cheese-fest. It was pseudo-latin. All the friggin' "Aye, yi, yi's" during the dance break reek of stereotype. Not to mention the fact that the original arrangement sounded Mexican and not Argentinian.

It reminds me of a lot of the crap that was put into WEST SIDE STORY, especially that cringe-worthy "Ole!" at the end of the "America" number. Puerto Ricans do NOT shout "Ole!"

Updated On: 7/25/12 at 06:44 AM

[After Eight]

Posted: 7/25/12 at 6:44am

"I think Herman has a lot of habit"

You've got a lot of habit, too. Of not writing coherently.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 7/25/12 at 8:14am

It reminds me of a lot of the crap that was put into WEST SIDE STORY, especially that cringe-worthy "Ole!" at the end of the "America" number. Puerto Ricans do NOT shout "Ole!"

Funny you should mention that, Carlos. That "ole!" was an item of much debate when Peter Gennaro and Lee Theodore were putting the number on Debbie Allen during rehearsals for the 1980 revival. As Debbie and the Shark girls got better and better, the shape of the number began to emerge.

But there was always something anticlimactic about the final button. Peter and Lee would rehearse the number over and over again and fix Debbie's arms or the timing of her landing in the final position and look at each other and shake their heads.

Finally, Mr. Robbins (as we were instructed to call him) watched a run-through of the number, nodding throughout as Debbie and the girls leapt up and swished their rehearsal skirts. The only thing he scowled at was poor Harolyn Blackwell, who stood by Rosalia's side stage right. Harolyn, who later become an opera star, was swishing her rehearsal skirt in time to the music while Debbie and the girls danced, and Robbins thought she was stealing focus.

They got to the end of the number and there was the same anticlimax in the room. Behind the table, Robbins scowled and Peter Gennaro and Lee Theodore leaned in to him. I was behind the table, and like Sondheim's someone-in-a-tree, I could hear them whisper to each other.

Robbins said, "It needs the ole," to which Peter said, "I knew you would said that" and Lee said, "I thought we'd get away without it this time."

Robbins said, "If it doesn't have the ole, they just sit there. It won't get a big hand if it doesn't have the ole." So Lee walked over to Debbie and the girls and whispered to them. Debbie glanced over at Mr. Robbins and whispered something back to Lee, who came back to the table and whispered to Mr. Robbins and Peter, "She says Puerto Ricans don't say ole."

Robbins stood up, and announced, loud enough for the entire room to hear, "It needs the ole" and walked out of the rehearsal room.

Lee turned to the rehearsal pianist and said "Let's take it the ending again." Debbie and the girls did the last section of the number with the great big "ole!" you see on the Tonys broadcast and the number worked.

The following week, there was a run-through and Arthur and Steve ("Mr. Laurents" and "Mr. Sondheim," as we were instructed to call them) were present. At the end of the first act, Mr. Robbins left the rehearsal room very quickly, and Arthur walked over to Lee and Peter and said, "The dancing is fine, but do we really still need that Mexican ole at the end of America?"

When Arthur directed the recent revival, the ole was gone. Karen and the girls just sit there. It got a big hand, but who knows? It might have gotten a bigger one if they had pit back the "ole!"

Updated On: 7/25/12 at 08:14 AM

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 7/25/12 at 8:45am

"
You've got a lot of habit, too. Of not writing coherently."

LOL, touche. I meant talent, I have no idea why it came out habit...

[g.d.e.l.g.i.]

Posted: 7/25/12 at 10:11am

PJ, you need to write a book. West Side Story As She Is Done might be a good title.

[Gothampc]

Posted: 7/25/12 at 10:25am

Completely off-topic, but to Pal Joey:

("Mr. Laurents" and "Mr. Sondheim," as we were instructed to call them)

Years ago, I was working on a production with Elaine Stritch. On the first day of rehearsals, the readthrough was completed and the actors took a break. After break, the PSM asked "Is everyone back" and I said "Everyone but Miss Stritch" to which the PSM said "Get used to calling the actors by their first names".

I did it, but I always felt I should have been calling her Miss Stritch.

[best12bars]

Posted: 7/25/12 at 10:26am

This is what happens when people today are conditioned to think of singing and dancing as competitive sports and not art forms.

Songs are reduced to pitch accuracy, riffs, held notes, and high belts. Musicality and expression take a backseat to "vocal gymnastics." A good singer is confused with a good voice and vice-versa (the equivalent of praising the violin rather than the violinist).

With dancing and choreography, it's the same messed-up philosophy. A dancer is judged by how high they can kick or jump, or how many turns and split-leaps they can do before passing out.

This has nothing to do with dancing and everything to do with competitive sports, primarily gymnastics. Choreography is now designed to impress rather than express. It has little or nothing to do with emotion to further enhance the story and score. There is no noticeable thought, rhyme, or reason behind the "steps" today.

It makes me sad to watch the art form devolve the way it has. I chalk it up to the reality TV competition shows where everything is judged on prowess and no one has an eye or ear for artistry.

There are exceptions to the rule, rarely. I haven't seen anyone "get it" since Susan Stroman, who was the last great choreographer to come down the pike with a real understanding of structure, character, story-telling, and emotion. I've seen an isolated number or two from others, but they're mostly flukes.

Prowess rules, and it passes for art now.

[Gothampc]

Posted: 7/25/12 at 10:31am

"Gotham, such great clip. Larry Fuller never got the credit he deserved for Evita, IMHO."

Eric, I always felt that Fuller would have received more credit if Patti LuPone didn't look like a dancing toadstool. It wasn't his fault, Patti was never a "moves well" actress.

[best12bars]

Posted: 7/25/12 at 10:38am

re: The West Side Story "Ole!"

It never bothered me. The number is full of acerbic ironies and perceived cliches about Puerto Ricans and their culture. It's perfectly fitting to say "Ole" at the end of this number, for that reason.

EDIT: You have to think like the characters, not like a text book. It's not a "proud celebration of Puerto Rican culture" here, it's almost a nose-thumbing at the perception white Americans have for them. Shouting "Ole!" at the end makes sense.

Updated On: 7/25/12 at 10:38 AM

[PalJoey]

Posted: 7/25/12 at 10:47am

I think you miss the point.

[best12bars]

Posted: 7/25/12 at 10:49am

How?

EDIT: The reason the dancers objected to it missed the point, IMO.

They could have shouted something else if all Robbins wanted was a vocal button. He wanted "Ole!"

It gives the number one final blast of irony at the end.

Updated On: 7/25/12 at 10:49 AM

[jv92]

Posted: 7/25/12 at 10:54am

PJ, Were you instructed to call Lenny "Maestro?" I've never heard of production staff members having to address people (Even the greats like Sondheim and Robbins) as if they were their third grade teachers. Except for George Abbott, of course.

[CarlosAlberto]

Posted: 7/25/12 at 11:31am

Sorry besty but as a Puerto Rican I ain't buyin that "justification" for the "Ole", it's just plain dumb. If I had a dollar for everytime I hit that mute button at the end of that
number.
Updated On: 7/25/12 at 11:31 AM

[best12bars]

Posted: 7/25/12 at 11:35am

Carlos, do you buy all the other cliches in this song as being correct and culturally accurate?

Or is it just this one at the very end that suddenly bugs you?

I do think the point is being missed here. It's supposed to be ironic.

Updated On: 7/25/12 at 11:35 AM

[CarlosAlberto]

Posted: 7/25/12 at 11:45am

Okay I'm re-reading the post again...and listening to the song as well. The thing about America is that every jab referencing American and Puerto Rican situations is based on some kind of facts or truth..but that Ole just doesnt ring true...