GETTELFINGER REPLACED BY DAVIE IN GG, WHY?- Page 2

[BillFinn]

Posted: 5/28/07 at 12:47am

Also, she isn't 7 years old. At least, I don't think she is.

Point being she was of an age when she didn't know any better. She can't be held accountable.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 5/28/07 at 1:17am

A dump that happens to be mansion in the East Hamptons. That was once celebrated by every who's who in its day. So HOW did that happen? And When? And Why?

It happened because of the events covered in Act One. And in the 30 years between, the downward spiral took place. If you think that people don't change over that much time or that the differences in Act One and Act Two aren't possible, you do not know much about life.

If they had been the Edies you see in Act Two back in the 40s, they both would have been put in institutions. At the least, they wouldn't have had the elite circmstances they had. You see how quickly Joe dumped her---do you think they would have ever dated or gotten engaged in the first place if she had been the Little Edie of Act Two? Obviously these women did not start out in life that way. It evolved. Slowly over time. After the events of Act One.

It's just a titch maddening how some of you think you know so much more than the people who created this. As if they didn't painstakingly consider all of these details in the creative process. Your wants for Little Edie are cliched and trite. What is happening onstage at the Kerr is not only more interesting, it's more practical to the reality of that NONFICTION world of those characters.

[BillFinn]

Posted: 5/28/07 at 1:38am

People do change that much over time. You win that. My point is, SHOW ME how. That's what good story telling is.

Big Edie in Act I is such a strong protagonist (antagonist?). Based on Act I alone, and not seeing the documentary, not reading a book (which I shouldn't have too because a musical should stand alone in telling a story), I don't buy that Big Edie would fall into a decrepit state of disarray. Live in filth. Eat kitty food. A woman so obsessed with presentation? A woman who writes down every chore to be executed before 5:15PM? Who's adored by Harper's Bazaar? Hmm.

Updated On: 5/28/07 at 01:38 AM

[miss pennywise]

Posted: 5/28/07 at 1:47am

Where on earth did you get "7 years old" from, BillFinn? Is that a typo? That's totally wrong.

The "downward spiral" about which jrb_actor speaks is not explained in simplistic terms because Act II is based on what we see in the documentary (quasi-fact). Act I is an "imagining" (quasi-fiction) of what the Edies' lives were like way back when. The contrast IS the message.

One of the reasons I love this show so much is that I relate to the story so well, having experienced some of what we see in Act I and Act II myself. You may think it's implausible, but it isn't. The creators aren't hitting us over the head with the details because GREY GARDENS is designed to elicit emotional responses, not rational ones.

In my opinion, if a piece makes you think, ponder and discuss, it is much more effective than a simple and straight-forward storytelling.

[BillFinn]

Posted: 5/28/07 at 1:51am

I could have sworn she said Edie was a little girl when she was swimming in the pool and the bathing suit came undone. 7 was a figure I came up in my head.

[ray-andallthatjazz86]

Posted: 5/28/07 at 1:55am

From what I understand Edie was well-developed by the time the swimming pool incident happened. She was developed enough to merit the nickname "body beautiful Beale," I doubt they would have given this name to a child. There was a sexuality suggested by the event and Edith mentions how all the men were pretty much salivating over her.

[miss pennywise]

Posted: 5/28/07 at 1:57am

Edith says right that that Little Edie became extremely popular and every guy in town wanted to date her. She wasn't SEVEN!

And "good storytelling" doesn't just "hand it over." It all depends on the writer's objective in telling the story in the first place.

[TapTapTapioca]

Posted: 5/28/07 at 1:57am

What is the story of Body Beautiful Beale?

[ray-andallthatjazz86]

Posted: 5/28/07 at 2:00am

At some kind of swimming competition (I don't recall the events described in the musical very well), Little Edie lost her bathing suit and was completely naked. Instead of being mortified, to everyone's surprise she kept on swimming till she reached the end while all the men were looking at her. Hence, everyone saw her beautiful body and nicknamed her "Body Beautiful Beale" (a song that I wish they hadn't cut, btw).

[BillFinn]

Posted: 5/28/07 at 2:08am

I never said good storytelling hands it over. But it certainly shouldn't subtly suggest "PREREQUISITE: WATCH THE DOCUMENTARY BEFORE SEEING THIS MUSICAL! The 30 year jump will make so much more sense, guys! Seriously!" Good story-telling weaves exposition into engaging action (which Act I does... sort of) and sets up for a journey of some sort. People want to be taken on a journey or explore intricate characters with real issues they can connect too.

Oh wow, about that Body Beautiful Beale age issue. Well, that makes things interesting. But now, I'm even more confused. You're telling me Act I "timid, frail, needy" Little Edie swam 2 laps in the pool, naked, came out and got herself a towel? That sounds more like Act I Big Edie, if anything. The whole impression I got from Erin Davie was "BRIDEZILLA! Blessing? Check. Mom out of commission? Check. Daddy coming home? Check. Gay pianist? Check. WEDDING TIME!" Oh well.

Updated On: 5/28/07 at 02:08 AM

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 5/28/07 at 2:14am

I know plenty of people who loved the show--understood it fine-- without having seen the doc. In fact, there are a great number of people who think that's the best way to see the show.

It's all perfectly clear if you pay attention.

[miss pennywise]

Posted: 5/28/07 at 2:15am

Which text book did you get "Good story-telling weaves exposition into engaging action" from?

You're 19. Stop being so condescending. You're talking to people who have a lot more experience in life than you do in both their professional and personal lives.

If Grey Gardens (or anything else) doesn't speak to you, that's fine. Just stop telling intelligent, sensitive and creative people that the show "blows" because you don't like it. You might also try to find a more mature, engaging way to say something "blows."

[Miss.Vanessi]

Posted: 5/28/07 at 3:28am

Granted, I did see the documentaries before seeing the show, I can say that handing us all every little detail is an absolutely preposterous suggestion. How long do you want the show to be?
I really don't understand how people can not see how the events in act I could lead to act II. We have a very dominant mother living in her own fantasy world, where she'll never be alone, where the only people who she feels that she really connects with are her daughter and her pianist. She also sees herself in Little Edie. She sees this young girl who dreams of fame and, in my opinion, tells the Body Beautiful Beale story to protect her from having to live the life that she's lived. Big Edie is delusional enough (and Christine, imo, plays this brilliantly) to think she's doing her daughter a favor, when she's actually holding her back, making her seem like a total freak. Little Edie gets trapped in this "freak" persona by acting out against her own fear- that she'll end up like her mother. They're both fighting against the same thing, but they're going at it all wrong, and they end up as recluses in the only place where they could ever be themselves.
(Apologies if that makes no sense to anyone else. I blame insomnia.)

[TapTapTapioca]

Posted: 5/28/07 at 3:57am

I did see the documentary before I saw the musical, I just don't remember the musical dialogue very well.

[BillFinn]

Posted: 5/28/07 at 4:15am

I could totally see Big Edie's point for what she did. If you notice, what sets her off is right when Joe Kennedy refers to Big Edie's singing as a "hobby." She wants better for her daughter. She wants for her, a man who doesn't view singing and theatrics as a hobby. She wants someone who views her daughter as an equal and can support her in every way possible. I wouldn't want MY OWN daughter marrying Joe Kennedy if she was only becoming a trophy wife. This motherly intuition is further developed when Joe says something snarky like "It's just another scandal, Edie..." and she goes "That's enough, Mr. Kennedy. Show yourself out the door." That's my favorite part. She takes charge and totally shuts him out to protect Little Edie. Christine is SO GOOD.

And then later, she mentions she sent Little Edie groceries when she was out in New York because she didn't know how to grocery shop for herself? So while Edith was domineering and did smother her, I think Little Edie dug the hole herself. She chased the men away with her paranoia. She made the BIGGEST deal about her Mom singing 9 songs, but Joe said it was fine! His family liked music! Oy.

Edith isn't living in a fantasy world any different, than say... Mama Rose and Louise. A delussional mother who yearns for the stage, but lives vicariously through her daughter. Both couples are common through that aspect. Except Mama Rose and Louise didn't end up living in a shambled house with cats. I don't see Big Edie any different than any another dominating mother who wants what's best for her child. Extreme lengths.

[GYPSY1527]

Posted: 5/28/07 at 9:25am

While I myself would not have made the comparison of Edith and Edie to Momma Rose and Louise, one aspect that their relationship did have in common was that later on in life, both mothers were asking for their daughters assistance. With Edith, it was more as a caretaker but with Louise and Rose it was more from a finacial point of view. Very interesting comparison. Also, its interesting to note that once Edie left Grey Gardens after her mother died, she supposedly lived a very normal life, nothing like the paronia she had experienced in Grey Gardens living with her mother.

[best12bars]

Posted: 5/28/07 at 9:41am

I agree 100 percent with what ray-andallthatjazz86 said. Davie gives us a glimpse of Act II's Little Edie during "Daddy's Girl."

But if you're looking for all the answers as to how the Beales got from where they were in Act I to where they are in Act II, they aren't there.

People are the summation of a thousand little "life decisions" we make each day. Just as Grey Gardens (the house) didn't fall apart over night, neither did these two ladies. It was a gradual, long road from Point A to Point B.

What becomes so shocking is seeing where they were in their prime, and then jumping forward 30 years. It's the same thing in the documentary about them. When they show the old photos from 30 and 40 years earlier, you are shocked to see what they were then, as you watch how they ended up.

I think the creative team behind Grey Gardens did a brilliant job in capturing that "shock."


EDIT: I will add this... Good play writing doesn't give us all the answers. It asks important questions, and attempts to point the way artistically. But it allows an audience to THINK for themselves. That might actually be the biggest "shock" of all these days. So few modern plays do that.

Updated On: 5/28/07 at 09:41 AM

[WaltSummersPI]

Posted: 5/28/07 at 10:05am

BillFinn, I think you're missing some of the key points of the show... you definitely do NOT have to see the documentary to understand what's going on, but you do have to pay attention.

As the musical presents it, Joe leaving had nothing to do with Little Edie's paranoia. Although we totally see the beginning of the downfall in "Daddy's Girl" (which Erin Davie performs VERY well), Joe is actually CONVINCED to sit down with Phelan by Edie's persuasive argument there.

[jimnysf]

Posted: 5/28/07 at 11:02am

There's a person named "Gettelfinger"?

[TheQuibbler]

Posted: 5/28/07 at 12:39pm

I think what some people are missing is the transition from Act I to Act II is SUPPOSED to be shocking. You're supposed to think, "What the hell happened here?" Then, using what you were given in Act I, you make the connections with Act II. The playwrights don't spoonfeed you the events leading up to Act II because we'd be at the theatre for days. Just like best12bars said, "People are the summation of a thousand little 'life decisions' we make each day."

[miss pennywise]

Posted: 5/28/07 at 12:51pm

What you've all said is true. You have to understand the creator's OBJECTIVE of whatever piece you are reading or watching. Is it to EXPLAIN what happened to the Beale women? (I think not.) Or is it to make the audience THINK...about the Beales specifically and about the human condition in general?

I have seen real people go from having everything to having nothing. And as I get older and experience the aging, illness and death of more and more people close to me, I understand with more clarity how longing, regret, dreams and sadness figure into life. In GREY GARDENS, we see all of that...as well as the spirit of survival, determination and love two women share throughout their lives.



P.S. Had not seen the documentaries before seeing the show for the first time.

[ray-andallthatjazz86]

Posted: 5/28/07 at 1:52pm

People are the summation of a thousand little "life decisions" we make each day. Just as Grey Gardens (the house) didn't fall apart over night, neither did these two ladies. It was a gradual, long road from Point A to Point B.
Beautifully said, Besty. Couldn't agree more.

[jg4892]

Posted: 5/28/07 at 2:01pm

I didn't see the documentary before the show and I understood everything fine. I think that's the better way to see the show, because it's so much more shocking to see these women in the second act.

[Sleeper2]

Posted: 5/28/07 at 5:34pm

Gettelfinger was terrible. Davie is wonderful (and hand-selected by Christine Ebersole). But who cares about casting since they both get to make out with Matt Cavenaugh eight times a week. I'm only more jealous of Jenny Powers, his girlfriend in real life.

[GYPSY1527]

Posted: 5/28/07 at 5:41pm

"both get to make out with Matt Cavenaugh eight times a week"

When does Ebersole kiss Matt? Did I miss something?