How will Chris Columbus show the male-male kisses in RENT?- Page 10

[Kringas]

Posted: 8/23/05 at 5:56pm

Again, you make good points, Penguin (is it okay if I call you that? If we're gonna keep going back and forth like this, it's easier than typing out your entire name each time).

I, personally, don't think Angel is all that complicated. I'm curious (and this is in all seriousness) what it is about her that you find complicated.

I still feel Collins is dull, dull, dull, but I'm glad there's something in him that you find interesting. I've always just found the Angel/Collins subplot of the show to be the weakest and least interesting. I'm sure I'm not alone in that, but I know that plenty of people do find something of interest in their story (such as yourself), and again, I'm glad that someone is getting something out of their subplot.

In my head at least Mimi has little to no time left, the end is immenent. It has always almost seemed to me that the entire ending from when Mimi returns through the finale (including Angel's return) is dreamish or a more a metaphoric hope, that Mimi dies.

Interesting enough. Perhaps you are "reading into it" but that doesn't negate your vision of it. As I said, the ending was always tricky for me. I was never sure what I was supposed to take away from it.

The thing about Rent is that I never fail to walk away from it sobbing like a baby. It gets me every time. It's when I'm away from it that I start tugging at the loose threads.

Updated On: 8/23/05 at 05:56 PM

[smartpenguin78]

Posted: 8/23/05 at 6:23pm

All very good points, I'll edit in a real response later. I'm glad we got to discuss some of the issues that the show does bring up.
The Angel angel is really complicated, I do not find her complicated, I think she is a very simple character but an inversion of what you might call a stereotypical character.

I will say many of the characters are rather two-dimensional. I actually find Roger and Mimi's love story the most boring, and as written they are bland to me, now an actor can turn Roger into something powerful easily, but I think the same can be said about most of them.

I also cry at the end.

[ByMySide25]

Posted: 8/23/05 at 9:06pm

(Sort of thread-jacking here but everyone else has so the what the hell, right?)

I think some people are forgeting the harsh reality that many people faced when they contracted HIV/AIDS. They knew they weren't going to be around much longer.

For me, Angel's death is so important because it is not only a moment in the show where the tough truth about HIV/AIDS sets in, but that we loose a character that means so much to the rest of the community in the show.

The fact that Mimi survives drives home the message that although everyone dies eventually, you have to live your life to the fullest and never give up hope. That's what Angel did!! Hence: No day but today.

All in all, I think you have to look at the character of Angel as a character who isn't a gay man with AIDS, but a character who has AIDS and also is a gay man.

P.S. -- Jonathan Larson's best friend and childhood friend, was gay. I don't think Jonathan was the deceptive, back stabbing, straight guy some of you make him out to be.

[Kringas]

Posted: 8/23/05 at 9:16pm

I don't think Jonathan was the deceptive, back stabbing, straight guy some of you make him out to be.

Who said he was?

[smartpenguin78]

Posted: 8/23/05 at 9:19pm

certainly not you or I, Kringas.

By My Side's actual points though are pretty interesting. I always felt that great moment of reality when Angel dies of being of greatest importance. I still hate that Mimi lives, yes I see how that is the "No Day But Today" theme, but it kills the drama.

Posted: 8/23/05 at 9:25pm

I like this convo!

I have to agree with a few posters up that of all the relationships, I think that Collins and Angel have, by far, the most "heat." When I say "heat," I don't mean plain sexual chemistry (although Wilson and Jesse together? HELLO), I mean the most passion. The other two couples are very...sexual based. Collins and Angel have an innocence about them that's very beautiful. Even in the trailer. Roger and Mimi and Maureen and Joanne are groping each other, sucking faces, etc. But that image where Angel just cuddles Collins against him on the street, hugging his head? I don't know...that just sends an *entirely* different message to me. One of adoration and purity that the other two severely lack, and that makes A/C eons more interesting than the 2 other relationships.

However, the majority of people in the world, simply put, like drama. They like seeing it, they like creating it, they like looking for it. They want drama, and melodramatics, and oh-em-gee "break up and bicker and fight and get back together" stuff. Me, personally? I hate that stuff. Which is why I see the Mimi/Roger and Maureen/Joanne relationships the same way Kringas sees C/A: they bore me to absolute tears. Not only that, but I can't take them seriously. Roger is a depressed dry drunk, Mimi is a whiny crack addict, Maureen is an obnoxious diva and Joanne...well, I actually like Joanne, so the only thing I can fault her with is lack of judgment when it comes to women. All they ever do is fight, fight, fight, bicker, bicker, bicker. Roger and Joanne have depth, but Maureen and Mimi are so...SHALLOW. There's nothing there, at least IMHO. Those two couples have never once convinced me that there's any kind of love there, or anything even worth caring about. Okay, they kiss occasionally, but that's not enough to cancel out the fact that most of the time, those two couples cannot stand each other. It becomes like a bad episode of Dawson's Creek, and they act like whiny high schoolers. Yawn. :-/

Like I said, I hate drama. Angel and Collins? No drama. Angel and Collins are simple. None of the mind game, bickering, teenaged stuff that R/M and M/J are constantly doing. Just pure love, plain and simple. They're mature, they're beautiful, and they're passionate and ardent and firey without being overly sexual and constantly fighting. I wholeheartedly agree that Angel is VASTLY underwritten, and hopefully the movie will change that: I *loved* Kringer's comment about him getting pricked with a needle! Heh!

However, Collins is my favorite character in the entire show. I think he's beautifully written and I find him very complex without being unecessarily complicated. Plus, I like how he matures and you can see how much Angel's love changes him. He's just such a great guy/character, and he touched me a lot.

So...yeah. Bottom line, when I walked out of that theatre, the only couple that affected me AT ALL were Collins and Angel. Roger/Mimi and Maureen/Joanne made me either laugh or roll my eyes. I couldn't have cared less about either of them. The only two people I loved by the end were A and C. They literally made the show for me. In comparison to them, the others were just...well, boring. It was like, I was already surrounded by whiny, adolescent brats in my high school, I didn't need to see it onstage, too.

That being said, I know that I'm in the minority. The majority of those I speak to, while they like A/C, they're the least favorite couple. Why? Because there's no drama. Happiness is boring to people in today's world--they want fighting! And comedic relief! Happy couples fail to entertain, and that's the reason why I think A/C are generally not recieved as well as the other two. It makes sense, but I disagree.

I heart A/C.


Updated On: 8/23/05 at 09:25 PM

[Kringas]

Posted: 8/23/05 at 9:30pm

Yeah, it's especially frustrating that Mimi completely lets herself go to s**t and still survives. The fact that she should have died is something that you and I are in agreement about, Penguin. Not only does it kill the drama, but it's a total cop-out. And while I do get what you're saying, ByMySide, about how it reiterates the "No Day But Today," I still am left with a strange feeling about Mimi living, just (as I said in earlier post) as I am about Angel returning at the end of the Finale. It just doesn't feel right. Or true. Or authentic.

[Kringas]

Posted: 8/23/05 at 9:53pm

Dammit, I'm trying to get ready to go out tonight (meow!) and SolitaryRose has to bust up on the scene with her (his?) well thought-out post. Thanks a lot!

I see what you're saying about groping/cuddling, etc, but (and this may actually sort of echo Art2 here) in the play, I always felt that that was also sort of a cop out. There were all these sparks coming from R/M and M/J (thanks for the abbreviations, SR!), and at the end of the "I'll Cover You" A/C do a quick peck and then raise their heads up to ths sky in rapture (it's been about five years since I've seen it onstage, perhaps it's different now or my mind is blurry). Maybe I'm just a perv. They just met, for God's sake. I want some passion. I don't want "a thousand sweet kisses."

Your point is noted about the drama, but with two drama-laden couples hogging the stage, it just causes A/C to not ring true to me. They're the only angst-free people in the whole show! And both are HIV-positive! More power to 'em, I guess.

I'm curious to hear how you think Angel's love changed Collins. Can you give a few examples (I'm not trying to bait you here. I'm genuinely curious).

Well said, though, both Rose and Penguin and ByMySide. I've enjoyed discussing this today. On that note, I really am heading out. I'm gonna wail at the moon like a cat in heat!

[ByMySide25]

Posted: 8/23/05 at 9:58pm

I think one of the reasons Angel returns is because he becomes an audience favorite throughout the show. I find it hard not to like Angel. His return always makes me smile. Also I've always thought of the end as the performers singing the show's message to the audience (like in "Seasons of Love"). Not the characters played by the performers. Make sense?

(By the way, the whole Jonathan back stabbing etc. thing came out the wrong way. I should've specifically looked up what I was referring to before leaving you all with that tid-bit. Heh. Sorry.)

[EverythingIsRENT]

Posted: 8/23/05 at 9:59pm

Interesting, becuase i've always found Mimi to be a fascinating character. I saw some phenomenal actresses who nailed the different layers: tough, yet vulverable, with a sweetness despite her addictions. Mimi COULDN'T die because she didn't have her s**t together yet. I don't know, I think if any character seems shalow and one-dementional and boring, it's Joanne. That's what's so great aboutr RENT, we all see different things in these wonderful characters!

[EverythingIsRENT]

Posted: 8/23/05 at 9:59pm

oops

Updated On: 8/24/05 at 09:59 PM

Posted: 8/23/05 at 10:12pm

Hehe! I'm sorry!

It depends on who you see do the role as far as the kiss goes. More recent actors are awful together: quick peck, yadda yadda. Wilson and Jesse, on the other hand...I think you will *love* them in the film. They have the innocence and purity, but at the same time, they are FECKIN' HOT. That ICY kiss? Hoooo... *shudders with ecstasy* It's a good balance. If you watched the Opening Night A/C pairing and compare it to A/C pairings of today, it actually angers you: to see how much the portrayal has deteriorated. In my opinion, Wilson and Jesse are the only two who ever REALLY got it. Which is why I'm happy they're the movie pairing. They are ON FIRE together; their chemistry is OFF THE WALL, and they are INSANELY passionate: all over each other. A sneak peak:

https://www.forget-regret.net/gallery/displayimage.php?album=45&pos=3

https://www.forget-regret.net/gallery/displayimage.php?album=45&pos=2

Mmmm. Oh yeah.

That being said, the lack of groping is cool with me b/c I feel that Angel and Collins are basically beyond that. Not beyond passion, but beyond that firey adolescent attitude. So their air of purity works for me: they've been through the messy stuff and can enjoy the beauty of simplicity together.

I feel like Angel changed Collins by my opinion that in the beginning of the show, Collins is pretty jaded. Not exactly bitter, but in "Rent" (the song), you can tell he's kinda worn out, lonely. Then, when Angel dies, he has this...maturity about him. A resolution, almost. The way he breaks up the fight in Goodbye, Love with those words of wisdom is a big indicator for me. He's much more open. Again, it comes down to how you interpret it, but I noticed a difference, at least.

Enjoy your night out!
Updated On: 8/23/05 at 10:12 PM

[art2]

Posted: 8/23/05 at 11:46pm

I just want the movie and the trailer to be fair and representative. So far, the trailer hasn't been fair and representative.

[Justice]

Posted: 8/24/05 at 1:25am

And that is you stating an opinion. Please stop trying to pass that off as fact.

[Kringas]

Posted: 8/24/05 at 4:19am

Well, between Penguin, SolitaryRose and ByMySide, I think I've exhausted myself on this topic. Thanks for a lively conversation. I still don't agree with a lot of what I've read, but it's always interesting to see how the same show affects people so differently.

And I expect to continue this conversation with the three of you after the movie comes out.

[CJR]

Posted: 8/24/05 at 8:16pm

CJR.

LOL. I love you.

As well you should, my dear. As well you should

[art2]

Posted: 8/24/05 at 8:32pm

Just keep in mind that libido liberals (which includes playwrights, actors, directors etc) are still uncomfortable with the notion of the passionate male-male kiss. While they claim to support gay rights, they flood the culture with images that exclude the erotic male-male interaction. Their philosophy is that it is OK to eroticize male-female and female-female but not male-male. These libido liberals are the hypocrites of our time, and it is the obligation of everyone who is interested in fairness to keep an eye out for them. This isn't me being nasty, it's simply me holding these hypocrites up to the light and pointing out their deceit and double standards.

Posted: 8/24/05 at 8:47pm

Not to be sarcastic, art, but I suppose, by your definition, that Jonathan Larson was then one of those libido liberals? After all, he's the one who wrote Angel as a drag queen, so, by your logic, he purposely tried to make Angel look like a girl to make sure that him kissing Collins wouldn't offend people.

And before you bring up the kiss that Angel gives him when they're in men's attire, there is no kiss between them, written in the script, where Angel is not in drag. Normally the actors just do it if they want to during Without You. All scripted kisses occure while Angel is dressed up.

I'm curious, is that what you think? Isn't it possible for someone to just be a drag queen without having some ulterior motive that includes trying to appear heterosexual?

If Angel HADN'T been a drag queen and CC had changed that to make him so, you'd have an argument. But it sounds like your complaint lies with the actual original content of Rent itself, and its writer, JL. Hollywood isn't doing anything wrong here, it's just making his material into a movie. Instead of the Rent trailer being homophobic, it sounds like you believe Rent ITSELF is homophobic. Is that the case?


Updated On: 8/24/05 at 08:47 PM

[musicnmath]

Posted: 8/24/05 at 8:47pm

art, your tenacity is remarkable.

[Shawk]

Posted: 8/24/05 at 8:49pm

Oooo, I knew it would come back to "libido liberals" eventually. How exciting.

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 8/24/05 at 9:02pm

"pound pound pound"

The sound of me hitting my head against a brick wall . . .

Art2 we get it. We may not agree with it, but we get it.

If you want to start a thread on Hollywood's depiction of gay male relationships, well then do so. All this does is get people riled up about something that may or may not occur in a film that is three months away from being released. In the process, it undermines you core issue. If you raised this point on a more reasoned way, you might in fact open the eyes of those "libido liberals".

And, for the record, this possible "libido liberal" will admit that during the first few minutes of my first episode of QAF I was a bit uncomfortable with the male/male love scenes and kissing, because it was something I was not used to seeing, but 15 minutes into the show it seemed perfectly normal for the characters and it did not seem at all strange. So, you may, under all of the Rent-related rhetoric, have a point.

No, off to go find some ice for my head.

[Pinguin]

Posted: 8/24/05 at 9:16pm

Here ya go, YouWantItWhen????; I specialize in penguins AND first aid :0)

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 8/24/05 at 9:19pm

Bless you and all who know you, oh wise and penguined one.

Now for the Sapphire Gin to go with it!

[art2]

Posted: 8/27/05 at 9:53pm

I've stated all along that the best way to determine if a double standard exists is to compare and contrast. After viewing the trailer, I was left in no doubt that the love relationship between the two men was something the studio didn't want to go into. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to make a deduction based on simple observations. You might hate me for saying it but it has to be said.

[YessicaB]

Posted: 8/27/05 at 10:10pm

My word, I can't believe nobody has managed to shut Art2 up yet. Honestly I'm a little disappointed in you guys.