Im an Indian too ?- Page 2

[alxscrz2]

Posted: 9/21/09 at 2:39am

Dolly, I think some people would consider 'spanish Rose' offensive. Im spanish and don't consider it offensive at all, I think it depends on the person, I guess. Well if they didn't cut 'spanish Rose' from bye bye birdie, then I think they should keep im an indian too, in Annie Get Your Gun.

[alterego]

Posted: 9/21/09 at 3:52am

If you start looking I think you'll find many, many examples of songs in shows that could be considered racist or just offensive to various groups. The cowboys praised in OKLAHOMA! were after all responsible for helping to wipe out the American Indians, then there is America from WEST SIDE STORY (offensive to Pueto Ricans?), Madame Lucy in IRENE, the Mute in THE FANTASTICKS, FINIAN'S RAINBOW and then there is Bloody Mary in SOUTH PACIFIC. If you look close enough you can find something offensive in (almost) every show. So you start with one show you have to take a look at all of them.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 9/21/09 at 9:24am

Thanks, PJ. I wish BFB were still around, because she always had the most insightful things to say about racial issues. I only questioned what was acceptable and what was not because I always thought PJ was one of the ones who harped on others for being insensitive about stuff like this, but I guess I'm wrong. Anyway, I'm not anyone's mom and I'm usually in the minority in what I think about things, so who cares what I have to say?

I think some of alterego's examples are valid (Finnian's Rainbow), and others just straw men. Oklahoma? Really? Or was that just an example to say, "See, white people have it bad, too?" Give me a friggin' break.

As for Spanish Rose, I liked the lyrics they used in the tv movie better, but that's just what me. But again, what do I know?

I'm with alterego. Let's not examine any older texts from a more enlightened perspective. Let's Ugga Wugga Meatball and slap on blackface and .... well, I was going to try and excuse misogyny as well, but that seems to be the one thing on the board that gets everyone to swoop down on you, so moving on...
We'll have slantly-eyed Asians orientals singing about eating dogs and write it all off because, like alterego said, (almost) EVERY show has something offensive, especially to white people!

The mute in the Fantasticks? Really?

Updated On: 9/21/09 at 09:24 AM

[vodkastinger]

Posted: 9/21/09 at 9:25am

I think a key thing to look at though is whether any said offense is part of developing a story ("West Side Story", "South Pacific") and character. Something like this song from "Annie Get Your Gun" is meant as a comic patter number, something that has nothing to do with the story or characters, but is just there. There is no need to whitewash history and pretend like racism doesn't exist. On the other hand, if you are mounting a production of one of these shows, a director needs to examine whether or not such a part is something that enhances the story they are telling, or whether it is a distraction. While audiences 50 years ago might have had a good time with a song like "I'm An Indian Too", I feel that most theatre audiences today would feel slightly uncomfortable and distracted from the story at hand.

There is certainly ways to make 'offensive' material an artistic part of the show that establishes character, setting, and tone. However, with this particular number, I don't think it works unless you are playing it for straight laughs. If I was directing a production of this show, I would cut it.

There are different ways to interpret this song, and the subject of how to celebrate the past while reconciling the deep stain of lingering racism. However, to throw around the pejorative of "PC police" is childish. For people to not want to see others treated like less than human does not make them unreasonable or out to stop "fun." Politically correct is just a term that white people like to throw around whenever their cultural dominance is questioned.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 9/21/09 at 9:37am

I wish they'd bring back the woman with the Mammy voice in "Tom and Jerry." Sigh. The good old days.

[alterego]

Posted: 9/21/09 at 9:51am

As they sing in AVENUE Q..... EVERYONE's A Little Bit Racist.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 9/21/09 at 9:54am

Yep, they sure do.

[best12bars]

Posted: 9/21/09 at 10:20am

No, all humor is NOT based on the misfortune of others. Abusive humor is. But not all humor.

And I find abusive humor the least funny of all.

"Using the same litmus test, is "Spanish Rose" equally as offensive?"

No, Dolly_Levi, it's not. Why? Rose (a Latin American woman), is singing it about herself, and she's making a point about the conventionality and shallow-mindedness of these stereotypes, both racial and gender-based. If she were a white man (or any other non-Latin male) singing these lyrics about Spanish Rose in order to be funny, then yes, it would be offensive.

The intentions are important. So is the source. It's not just the text alone.

I'm surprised I even have to clear this up. Can't people use their brains and see the difference between making fun of someone's racial background vs. pointing out how people can't see beyond racial stereotypes (ala "Spanish Rose")? There's a big difference there.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 9/21/09 at 10:22am

What about The Mute? Don't forgot The Mute!!!!

[PalJoey]

Posted: 9/21/09 at 10:38am

I don't get how "Spanish Rose" is offensive either. Rose is pointing out Mae's prejudice.

Vodkastinger--that's an interesting point about the offensiveness of songs that advance the action vs. songs that are there merely as diversions. Are you saying that if a song depicted a now-offensive attitude but it propelled the action or characterization, it would somehow be more okay? I'm trying to think of examples that would prove or disprove that.

Bloody Mary is an interesting fulcrum for this discussion: Until the recent revival, the character seemed to be as racially insensitive as the characters Rodgers and Hammerstein created in Flower Drum Song.

Yet, in the hands of an inspired director (Bartlett Sher) and a gifted actress (Loretta Ables Sayre), what could have been a stereotype and a caricature became a three-dimensional characterization that gave insight into the mix of cultures at that time and place.

[best12bars]

Posted: 9/21/09 at 10:43am

Did you see the musical Grey Gardens on Broadway? There's a song called "Hominy Grits." It's a song meant to illustrate a point. The song itself is written in a period style of so many others popularized in the 1920s and '30s, like "Short'nin' Bread," etc. White people found them innocuous, quaint, and highly entertaining back then.

But in Grey Gardens, this song is sung by the young Big Edie (Ebersole). She's teaching this song and performing it with her two young nieces (Jackie and Lee). (They've got to be carefully taught. Especially while they're young.)

They're all having a grand time! But Brooks, their black butler, is also on stage watching them. And his face, completely relaxed, unflinching, yet focused on them, says everything. He doesn't roll his eyes in disgust. He doesn't shake his head. He doesn't laugh along with them. He just stares at them.

So the song "Hominy Grits" ... is it racist? In and of itself, yes. But as staged and performed in the show, it's a very powerful anti-racism moment. The best part for me was watching (and listening to) the audience, trying to decide if they should laugh or not. Many did. But it was a nervous, squirm-in-your-seat laughter. "I can't believe people used to do this!" "I can't believe Brooks is watching them make total asses out of themselves, and yet he stands there, dignified, doing his job as a butler."

A great moment in the show. But cut the song? And you lose a very valuable point.

Is this anything like the "I'm An Indian, Too" number in Annie Get Your Gun? Not remotely.

Updated On: 9/21/09 at 10:43 AM

[PalJoey]

Posted: 9/21/09 at 10:57am

I know I am alone among Grey Gardens fans, but I found the Hominy Grits song offensive. Disgustingly offensive.

I didn't say "I can't believe they used to do this." I said "I can't believe these gifted writers were stupid enough to waste five minutes of the audience's time watching a number that had no place in the show.

The song should definitely have been cut. The point it made was valuable sociologically, in a PBS documentary, but of no value to the dramatic story.

It took me out of the story of Big and Little Edie and seemed to be all about displaying the "hand of the author." By contrast, when Rodgers and Hammerstein put "You've Got to be Carefully Taught" into South Pacific, it illuminated not only Cable's character, but also Nellie's and even De Becque's.

In my (always) humble opinion.

[Q]

Posted: 9/21/09 at 11:03am

George Carlin on Indians vs. Native Americans:

" Now, the Indians. I call them Indians because that's what they are. They're Indians. There's nothing wrong with the word Indian. First of all, it's important to know that the word Indian does not derive from Columbus mistakenly believing he had reached "India." India was not even called by that name in 1492; it was known as Hindustan. More likely, the word Indian comes from Columbus' description of the people he found here. He was an Italian, and did not speak or write very good Spanish, so in his written accounts he called the Indians, "Una gente in Dios." A people in God. In God. In Dios. Indians. It's a perfectly noble and respectable word.
So let's look at this pussified, trendy bull**** phrase, Native Americans. First of all, they're not natives. They came over the Bering land bridge from Asia, so they're not natives. There are no natives anywhere in the world. Everyone is from somewhere else. All people are refugees, immigrants, or aliens. If there were natives anywhere, they would be people who still live in the Great Rift valley in Africa where the human species arose. Everyone else is just visiting. So much for the "native" part of Native American.
As far as calling them 'Americans' is concerned, do I even have to point out what an insult this is? Jesus Holy SH*T Christ!! We steal their hemisphere, kill twenty or so million of them, destroy five hundred separate cultures, herd the survivors onto the worst land we can find, and now we want to name them after ourselves? It's appalling. Haven't we done enough damage? Do we have to further degrade them by tagging them with the repulsive name of their conquerors?"
Link to full text.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 9/21/09 at 11:08am

I know I am alone among Grey Gardens fans, but I found the Hominy Grits song offensive. Disgustingly offensive.

In the same way you found the Joan Rivers roast offensive? It's really hard to know what tone you are taking a lot of the time.

[best12bars]

Posted: 9/21/09 at 11:27am

I respectfully disagree, PJ.

That song and moment in Grey Gardens showed me more about Big Edie and how disconnected she was from not only the world around her but the world right in her own living room. A lesson in the sociology of "silly white rich women" who were teaching racism to the children all in the name of fun and entertainment. And a chance to perform in front of their friends and peers.

In many ways, the Edies WERE "silly white women." They weren't just victims. They weren't just rebels or visionaries. Or brilliantly tortured creatures. Or lessons in mental illness.

They were silly white women. Living a life of clueless privilege. They appeared to be aware of many of the injustices going on in the world, yet they couldn't see one going on in their own house.

And we as an audience needed to see that aspect of them as well. It makes them real, not just tragic muses for each other's passionate philosophies.

I absolutely LOVED that moment in Grey Gardens. And I think it was as effective to the story and the characters as You've Got To Be Carefully Taught was in South Pacific.

For many people, Grey Gardens is a big "who cares?" Who cares about these two rich white women who had everything and ended up in a flea-infested ramshackle mansion eating cat food? There are so many people in this country who start out that way in life and stay that way. If we just show their "romanticized tragedy" to the audience without pointing out their faults as women and as rich white ladies, I would find the whole show stilted and shallow. And far less interesting.

Updated On: 9/21/09 at 11:27 AM

Posted: 9/21/09 at 11:36am

What about the Geisha song? Can we assume that if the Hominy Grits song annoyed you, The Geisha song made you pull your hair out?

Frankly, I thought both songs illuminated a character. But don't get me started on the crap in Avenue Q.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 9/21/09 at 11:44am

I think he might have been joking.

[darquegk]

Posted: 9/21/09 at 11:55am

Then there's the question of David Henry Hwang and his peers, and the case of Flower Drum Song.

The original Flower Drum Song on Broadway was yellowface, plain and simple, chock full of white actors doing racial stereotypes. David Henry Hwang radically rewrote the book to be about the Asian experience, assimilation, and the kind of "yellowface" pop culture the original was firmly based in.

Did he do a good thing, or was it sacrilige to throw out the whole book of a musical we now consider "politically incorrect?"

(My answer? I think he did a good job, with a good intention, and I happen to personally like his book better, but it's telling that Rodgers and Hammerstein now licenses both versions.)

[TulitaPepsi]

Posted: 9/21/09 at 12:14pm

Yet Huang added a new character: a stereotypically mincing gay hairdresser-dancer who only served as comic relief, especially in a dance number where he was supposed to play "butch".

Yellow face = wrong. Gay minstrelry = perfectly fine.

[Borstalboy]

Posted: 9/21/09 at 12:17pm

Hwang wrote an eviscerating portrayal of himself in his fantastic play called....YELLOW FACE.


I truly cannot believe we have people defending "I'm An Indian, Too".

[PalJoey]

Posted: 9/21/09 at 12:22pm

Yellow face is a brilliant play. The idea behind his Flower Drum Song was exciting but onstage it just did did not work.

As far as the Geisha song, I found this in a Playbill.com interview with Michael Korie, but I don't think it really explains why those songs were necessary in the musical:

===

Playbill.com: The little ditties Edith sings about being a Geisha and "Hominy Grits," how did those come about?

MK: Those songs are a little bit different because they're both racist. One of them has a specific purpose. With "Hominy Grits," Edith might have thought that was an acceptable comic relief song for her rich white guests. But in rehearsal, we knew the grandfather had to squash this concert. She had to sing something that was particularly offensive to him. What was offensive to him was not so much the racism, though it is offensive, but the fact that she sang it in front of the servants. You never embarrass the servants, and you never reveal yourself to the servants.

Playbill.com: Did you do research when writing those songs by looking at similar songs in the past?

MK: Yes. I looked at all those horrible songs. There was a whole bunch of those kind of songs which were disgusting. There are dozens. The Geisha song was put in so "Hominy" didn't come out of left field. We had to establish that this was something she did.

Updated On: 9/21/09 at 12:22 PM

[best12bars]

Posted: 9/21/09 at 12:30pm

Yes, I left out the loud protesting reaction of Mr. Beale, which is also essential to the overall scene. He is completely disgusted with his daughter right then, but for all the wrong reasons. Because she is "revealing" her racism to the servants and embarrassing them in front of others. One just didn't DO that back then. It was considered ill-mannered. But he was not angry or incensed because it's morally wrong for her to sing such a song.

Love, love, love that scene and song!

... and for all the right reasons!

[TulitaPepsi]

Posted: 9/21/09 at 12:45pm

Personally, there are various shadings to this kind of material. I wasn't bothered by "Hominy Grits" or "Geisha" in GREY GARDENS for the reasons best12bars noted. I also think the "Geisha" song indirectly alludes to fact World War II never clouds the minds of the cosseted Beales.

And I don't mind "I'm An Indian Too". But "What Makes The Red Man Red" skeeves me out. And I Love the entire minstrel number in BABES ON BROADWAY for its performances and Berkeley's striking visual panache. But Berkeleys's even more lavishly staged "Goin' to Heaven on a Mule" from WONDER BAR (1934) is a monstrosity. But the worst example I'v seen is the Walter Lanz cartoon "Scrub Me Mama With A Boogie-Woogie Beat" which is unwatchable.

One of the greatest numbers in any MGM musical, "Pass That Peace Pipe" is thrilling cinema despite the lyrics. But I find this later version (despite mostly cleaned-up lyrics) to be pretty offensive and painfully unfunny.
Pass That Peace Pipe

[TulitaPepsi]

Posted: 9/21/09 at 1:00pm

b2b: David Zellnik (book writer and lyricist of my beloved YANK!) is re-writing Sammy Cahn's lyrics to "What Makes The Red Man Red?" for Disney preparatory to a possible stage adaption of PETER PAN. The new, cleaned-up version is "What Makes The Brave Man Brave?"

In the fascinating 1933 short RUFUS JONES FOR PRESIDENT, little Sammy Davis Jr. is elected the first African-American president. Singing before an all-black Congress his mother Ethel Waters transforms Mack Gordon's racist lyrics to "Underneath the Harlem Moon" into something akin to a Black Pride Anthem.

(Ms. Waters first sings the great "Am I Blue", which she introduced four years previously in the Warners musical ON WITH THE SHOW!)
First We Were Repubicans and now we're Democrats

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 9/21/09 at 1:05pm

I still think PJ was kidding. It reads like all the kvetching he did in the Joan Rivers thread (that he later deleted). I don't know why he doesn't just clarify his comments, though.