Im an Indian too ? — Page 2

Dolly, I think some people would consider 'spanish Rose' offensive. Im spanish and don't consider it offensive at all, I think it depends on the person, I guess. Well if they didn't cut 'spanish Rose' from bye bye birdie, then I think they should keep im an indian too, in Annie Get Your Gun.

Thanks, PJ. I wish BFB were still around, because she always had the most insightful things to say about racial issues. I only questioned what was acceptable and what was not because I always thought PJ was one of the ones who harped on others for being insensitive about stuff like this, but I guess I'm wrong. Anyway, I'm not anyone's mom and I'm usually in the minority in what I think about things, so who cares what I have to say?

I think some of alterego's examples are valid (Finnian's Rainbow), and others just straw men. Oklahoma? Really? Or was that just an example to say, "See, white people have it bad, too?" Give me a friggin' break.

As for Spanish Rose, I liked the lyrics they used in the tv movie better, but that's just what me. But again, what do I know?

I'm with alterego. Let's not examine any older texts from a more enlightened perspective. Let's Ugga Wugga Meatball and slap on blackface and .... well, I was going to try and excuse misogyny as well, but that seems to be the one thing on the board that gets everyone to swoop down on you, so moving on...
We'll have slantly-eyed Asians orientals singing about eating dogs and write it all off because, like alterego said, (almost) EVERY show has something offensive, especially to white people!

The mute in the Fantasticks? Really?

Updated On: 9/21/09 at 09:24 AM

I wish they'd bring back the woman with the Mammy voice in "Tom and Jerry." Sigh. The good old days.

Yep, they sure do.

What about The Mute? Don't forgot The Mute!!!!

Did you see the musical Grey Gardens on Broadway? There's a song called "Hominy Grits." It's a song meant to illustrate a point. The song itself is written in a period style of so many others popularized in the 1920s and '30s, like "Short'nin' Bread," etc. White people found them innocuous, quaint, and highly entertaining back then.

But in Grey Gardens, this song is sung by the young Big Edie (Ebersole). She's teaching this song and performing it with her two young nieces (Jackie and Lee). (They've got to be carefully taught. Especially while they're young.)

They're all having a grand time! But Brooks, their black butler, is also on stage watching them. And his face, completely relaxed, unflinching, yet focused on them, says everything. He doesn't roll his eyes in disgust. He doesn't shake his head. He doesn't laugh along with them. He just stares at them.

So the song "Hominy Grits" ... is it racist? In and of itself, yes. But as staged and performed in the show, it's a very powerful anti-racism moment. The best part for me was watching (and listening to) the audience, trying to decide if they should laugh or not. Many did. But it was a nervous, squirm-in-your-seat laughter. "I can't believe people used to do this!" "I can't believe Brooks is watching them make total asses out of themselves, and yet he stands there, dignified, doing his job as a butler."

A great moment in the show. But cut the song? And you lose a very valuable point.

Is this anything like the "I'm An Indian, Too" number in Annie Get Your Gun? Not remotely.

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Updated On: 9/21/09 at 10:43 AM

George Carlin on Indians vs. Native Americans:

" Now, the Indians. I call them Indians because that's what they are. They're Indians. There's nothing wrong with the word Indian. First of all, it's important to know that the word Indian does not derive from Columbus mistakenly believing he had reached "India." India was not even called by that name in 1492; it was known as Hindustan. More likely, the word Indian comes from Columbus' description of the people he found here. He was an Italian, and did not speak or write very good Spanish, so in his written accounts he called the Indians, "Una gente in Dios." A people in God. In God. In Dios. Indians. It's a perfectly noble and respectable word.
So let's look at this pussified, trendy bull**** phrase, Native Americans. First of all, they're not natives. They came over the Bering land bridge from Asia, so they're not natives. There are no natives anywhere in the world. Everyone is from somewhere else. All people are refugees, immigrants, or aliens. If there were natives anywhere, they would be people who still live in the Great Rift valley in Africa where the human species arose. Everyone else is just visiting. So much for the "native" part of Native American.
As far as calling them 'Americans' is concerned, do I even have to point out what an insult this is? Jesus Holy SH*T Christ!! We steal their hemisphere, kill twenty or so million of them, destroy five hundred separate cultures, herd the survivors onto the worst land we can find, and now we want to name them after ourselves? It's appalling. Haven't we done enough damage? Do we have to further degrade them by tagging them with the repulsive name of their conquerors?"
Link to full text.

I respectfully disagree, PJ.

That song and moment in Grey Gardens showed me more about Big Edie and how disconnected she was from not only the world around her but the world right in her own living room. A lesson in the sociology of "silly white rich women" who were teaching racism to the children all in the name of fun and entertainment. And a chance to perform in front of their friends and peers.

In many ways, the Edies WERE "silly white women." They weren't just victims. They weren't just rebels or visionaries. Or brilliantly tortured creatures. Or lessons in mental illness.

They were silly white women. Living a life of clueless privilege. They appeared to be aware of many of the injustices going on in the world, yet they couldn't see one going on in their own house.

And we as an audience needed to see that aspect of them as well. It makes them real, not just tragic muses for each other's passionate philosophies.

I absolutely LOVED that moment in Grey Gardens. And I think it was as effective to the story and the characters as You've Got To Be Carefully Taught was in South Pacific.

For many people, Grey Gardens is a big "who cares?" Who cares about these two rich white women who had everything and ended up in a flea-infested ramshackle mansion eating cat food? There are so many people in this country who start out that way in life and stay that way. If we just show their "romanticized tragedy" to the audience without pointing out their faults as women and as rich white ladies, I would find the whole show stilted and shallow. And far less interesting.

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Updated On: 9/21/09 at 11:27 AM

I think he might have been joking.

Yet Huang added a new character: a stereotypically mincing gay hairdresser-dancer who only served as comic relief, especially in a dance number where he was supposed to play "butch".

Yellow face = wrong. Gay minstrelry = perfectly fine.

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Yellow face is a brilliant play. The idea behind his Flower Drum Song was exciting but onstage it just did did not work.

As far as the Geisha song, I found this in a Playbill.com interview with Michael Korie, but I don't think it really explains why those songs were necessary in the musical:

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Playbill.com: The little ditties Edith sings about being a Geisha and "Hominy Grits," how did those come about?

MK: Those songs are a little bit different because they're both racist. One of them has a specific purpose. With "Hominy Grits," Edith might have thought that was an acceptable comic relief song for her rich white guests. But in rehearsal, we knew the grandfather had to squash this concert. She had to sing something that was particularly offensive to him. What was offensive to him was not so much the racism, though it is offensive, but the fact that she sang it in front of the servants. You never embarrass the servants, and you never reveal yourself to the servants.

Playbill.com: Did you do research when writing those songs by looking at similar songs in the past?

MK: Yes. I looked at all those horrible songs. There was a whole bunch of those kind of songs which were disgusting. There are dozens. The Geisha song was put in so "Hominy" didn't come out of left field. We had to establish that this was something she did.

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Updated On: 9/21/09 at 12:22 PM

Personally, there are various shadings to this kind of material. I wasn't bothered by "Hominy Grits" or "Geisha" in GREY GARDENS for the reasons best12bars noted. I also think the "Geisha" song indirectly alludes to fact World War II never clouds the minds of the cosseted Beales.

And I don't mind "I'm An Indian Too". But "What Makes The Red Man Red" skeeves me out. And I Love the entire minstrel number in BABES ON BROADWAY for its performances and Berkeley's striking visual panache. But Berkeleys's even more lavishly staged "Goin' to Heaven on a Mule" from WONDER BAR (1934) is a monstrosity. But the worst example I'v seen is the Walter Lanz cartoon "Scrub Me Mama With A Boogie-Woogie Beat" which is unwatchable.

One of the greatest numbers in any MGM musical, "Pass That Peace Pipe" is thrilling cinema despite the lyrics. But I find this later version (despite mostly cleaned-up lyrics) to be pretty offensive and painfully unfunny.
Pass That Peace Pipe

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I still think PJ was kidding. It reads like all the kvetching he did in the Joan Rivers thread (that he later deleted). I don't know why he doesn't just clarify his comments, though.