Into The Woods: the Witch and Rapunzel

[BlueWizard]

Posted: 12/22/04 at 2:09am

Does anyone else find homoerotic overtones in the way the Witch keeps Rapunzel for herself, is threatened by the Prince, and wants to become young and beautiful again so that Rapunzel will love her? Their relationship feels less like a mother-daughter relationship and more like that of an older, scorned lover and a younger beloved.

Updated On: 12/22/04 at 02:09 AM

[paradox_error]

Posted: 12/22/04 at 2:18am

I never really looked at it that way, but I can definately see where you are coming from. And its not even incestuous...they aren't related.
Interesting theory!!!

[TheatreRatinBlue]

Posted: 12/22/04 at 2:24am

that's digging a little deep into the storyline.

[Love4Cheno]

Posted: 12/22/04 at 10:12am

It's Sondheim, so you NEVER know. "Johanna" from Sweeney is NOT about just his "love" for her, and "sweetly buried in your yellow hair" does NOT refer to the hair on her head.

Also- he wrote a new song for the witch and Rapunzel for the London staging called "Our Little World." "Our little world is perfect..."

[Rathnait62]

Posted: 12/22/04 at 10:16am

Blue, I've always felt that way.

[BlueWizard]

Posted: 12/22/04 at 2:14pm

The Witch and Rapunzel reminds me of the relationship in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon between the ingenue and her master Jade Fox. The only thing that makes it a mother-daughter relationship is their difference in age; otherwise, I find that there are very strong lesbian undercurrents that inform the older lover's frustration and anger.

One more question about Into The Woods: how does the Witch still have the power to disappear after "Last Midnight"?

Updated On: 12/22/04 at 02:14 PM

[VIETgrlTerifa]

Posted: 12/22/04 at 2:18pm

Plot hole.

I heard that in the revival, she gave up her beauty to get her powers. But then if she had no powers, how can she give up her beauty?

[redhotinnyc2]

Posted: 12/22/04 at 2:21pm

I don't want to sound rude - but that incest angle is just the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. It may be Sondheim, but its a children's fairy-tale, for chrissakes...

[robbiej]

Posted: 12/22/04 at 2:27pm

I don't think it's so ridiculous...and it was actually kinda what I was getting from the revival.

It's an interesting thought, but certainly a squeamish one. Though not blood relatives, the witch certainly did raise Rapunzel from infancy. To explore a sexual relationship between the two would be a bit too Woody/Soon Yee for me.

However...there is no plot hole with her disappearing at the end of LAST MIDNIGHT.

She throws the beans away and becomes an old powerful crone, just like she explains in the opening.

"Alright, mother, when?
Punish me again.
Give me claws and a hunch,
Just away from this bunch
And the gloom.
And the doom.
And the boom.
Crunch."

[BlueWizard]

Posted: 12/22/04 at 2:28pm

It's not incest if they were never related.

Besides, the Grimm brothers' fairy-tales are actually quite gory and perverse (before their Disneyfication), and I believe a few of them actually do have incest in them.

[robbiej]

Posted: 12/22/04 at 2:30pm

Tell that to Mia Farrow!

[VIETgrlTerifa]

Posted: 12/22/04 at 2:30pm

Oh right! But then the original production ever actually showed her getting old. She just did a funny cape dance and disappeared.

[Love4Cheno]

Posted: 12/22/04 at 2:27pm

I don't think it's ridiculous AT ALL. Into the Woods is NOT a children's fairytale. It's very much grown up. The Baker's Wife has sex with a prince in the middle of the woods, etc.

And if you read any of the original Grimm's Fairytales that Sondheim used as a basis, you'll find they're very dark, sexual, and violent.

[robbiej]

Posted: 12/22/04 at 2:32pm

Exactly, Viet.

The original did employ the funny cape dance.

The revival actually had VW turning old before our eyes before she disappeared.

[Love4Cheno]

Posted: 12/22/04 at 2:29pm

One more thing-

Many people consider the Giant that comes down the beanstalk to be an allegory for the AIDS epidemic. It was just surfacing as Sondheim was writing the show, and I think it's an interesting association to parallel the havoc and death caused by AIDS, and the same caused by the Giant(ess) when she touches ground.

What do you guys think?

[redhotinnyc2]

Posted: 12/22/04 at 2:36pm

I know all about the sexual aspects of childrens fairy tales - I've read many of the Grimms tales and loved Into the Woods. I just don't think THAT'S what they were going for in that aspect of the show - It definitely plays like a loving mothe/daughter relationship as opposed to an incestous/homosexual one.

[BlueWizard]

Posted: 12/22/04 at 2:38pm

Yeah, I heard about the AIDS allegory too. Some of the Witch's comments definitely support it. Do we know for sure, however, if Sondheim/Lapine had that in mind when they were writing?

[Rathnait62]

Posted: 12/22/04 at 2:43pm

redhot, I've been in both a mother/daughter relationship and a couple (!) of homosexual relationships. The relationship between Rapunzel and the Witch - the jealousy and possessiveness - definitely echoes the latter more than the former.

[PleaseChangeMe]

Posted: 12/22/04 at 2:46pm

"It's Sondheim, so you NEVER know. "Johanna" from Sweeney is NOT about just his "love" for her, and "sweetly buried in your yellow hair" does NOT refer to the hair on her head."

Where in the world did you read this? Can anyone else back this up? I find that a little wrong even for Anthony.

And Sondheim has said that the Giant's landing has nothing to do with the AIDS problem.

[Love4Cheno]

Posted: 12/22/04 at 2:46pm

Regarding the Anthony/Joanna sexual lyric, it came from the mouth of a B'way Musical Director. Not Paul Gemignani, but nonetheless...and I'm not saying who.

[StickToPriest]

Posted: 12/22/04 at 2:51pm

Though I do not think it is what Sondheim/Lapine intended, the idea is not far-fetched.

But Into the Woods has its fair share of sexual undertone.
One could write a book studying the sexual undertone and metaphorical language hidden in the laguage of Sondheim and Lapine.


A fascinating book that I recommend to anyone is a book by Bettelheim called The Uses of Enchantment: The Meaning and Importance of Fairy Tales

It is a very scholarly and well-educated work on the hidden meanings of children's stories and an incredible study of what they mean to kids who read them. Into the Woods got started by Sondheim falling in love with the book.

Though Bettelheim never suggests that the relationship between Rapunzel and the Witch is an incestuous one, there are many insights he takes with the story.

The one aspect of the story that Bettelheim spends the most time on is Rapunzel's use and need of her own body to protect her and how she uses her body to help those she loves.

This is most evident in her hair that she needs to let people reach her, and she lets those she loves use her hair (re: body) to reach her tower, and also Rapunzel's use of her tears to restore the eyesight of her love.

To summarize nearly ten pages of the book, Bettelheim asserts that the story was primarily to teach young girls on the brink of sexual maturity the value of their body.

Updated On: 12/22/04 at 02:51 PM

[robbiej]

Posted: 12/22/04 at 2:52pm

re: Johanna.

That's what I always assumed it was...he's a sailor, for pete's sake. And he's been at sea for a good long time.

What I got from the ITW revival was that the Witch certainly had more than a motherly interest in Rapunzel, though I don't think it ever really came to fruition.

[musicalfandukie]

Posted: 12/22/04 at 3:07pm

i've never really thought anything more than a mother daughter type thing.

[BroadwayBound06]

Posted: 12/22/04 at 3:09pm

Just becasue the Witch raised Rapunzel from infantcy doesn't mean that they can't have a sexaul relationship later. Look at the Judge and Johanna in Sweeney, the Judge wants to marry her.

[robbiej]

Posted: 12/22/04 at 3:39pm

And it's CREEPY in that too!!!

It's not like we're rooting for the Judge to get with Johanna!