Is Mrs. Lovett the truly evil one?

[Urban]

Posted: 8/15/05 at 3:22am

I was having a debate with a friend a couple of days ago on who was the truly evil character in "Sweeney Todd". I had the opinion that Sweeney, while definately evil, was evil due to extra-ordinary circumstances and sort of was driven down that dark alley.

Mrs. Lovett on the other hand didn't have anybody to force her to go down there and she was just as bad as Sweeney. Heck! It was her idea to bake the pies!

So I have always been of the opinion that Mrs. Lovett was the truly evil one in the show, but that is just my opinion. What are other peoples opinions? I'd love to hear 'em.

[jam_man]

Posted: 8/15/05 at 3:28am

That's a very interesting point. I wish I had something to add to that. Maybe I will after I sleep (assuming I do).

[sabrelady]

Posted: 8/15/05 at 3:52am

You actually have to have a sense of morality to be conciously evil. She had none. She could just as easily protect you as dismember you.( TOTAL sociopath) Sweeney KNOWS what he does is wrong and evil and he conciously chooses it to revenge himself on the cruel and indifferent world which he perceives as causing his losses. So. IMO Sweeney is the evil one.

[RockabyeHamlet]

Posted: 8/15/05 at 4:17am

I always thought Lovett was the evil one...

[scooter38432]

Posted: 8/15/05 at 7:54am

I, too, think Mrs. Lovett was the (more) evil one.
She puts so many of those wicked ideas into Sweeney's head. Granted, he's filled with rage and a longing for revenge, but she sees those feelings and acts upon them accordingly, for her own benefit (financial and romantic).

Those two buns on the top of her head could certainly resemble devil horns... : )

[MisterRussell]

Posted: 8/15/05 at 10:53am

I blame society...the class system...and Mrs. Mooney.

[WickedGeek28]

Posted: 8/15/05 at 10:54am

I don't think so, she's just trying to get what she wants, Sweeney. She really loves him and is only evil with him so he could be truly happy.

[best12bars]

Posted: 8/15/05 at 11:05am

Damn that Mrs. Mooney! She's the real problem here after all, isn't she? I totally agree. LOL Too funny.

Keeping up with the Joneses CAN be hellish.

[BobbyBubby]

Posted: 8/15/05 at 11:07am

Depends how you play it.

[CastAlbumFan]

Posted: 8/15/05 at 11:28am

I consider Mrs. Lovett the evil one for the simple fact that she didn't tell Sweeney that his wife was still alive (No, I don't know why Sweeney didn't recognize her when he first saw her...).

[uncageg]

Posted: 8/15/05 at 12:04pm

I agree with WickedGeek28. She is doing it to get to him. She will do anything if she can have him.

[Calvin]

Posted: 8/15/05 at 12:06pm

I've always looked at it as a show full of evil people, with the exception of Tobias, Anthony, Lucy and Johanna. In fact, look at it from the perspective of the seven deadly sins (well, six of them):

Lust:
Judge Turpin. His lust for Lucy is what started everything; this develops into a more sinister, creepy lust for her daughter.

Greed:
The Beadle. A corrupt public official. "Beadle isn't bad till you smell it and notice how well it's been greased."

Wrath:
Todd. Umm, I think this goes without saying.

Envy:
Mrs. Lovett. Jealous of Lucy to the point that she'd lie to Todd about her being alive. Her name even rhymes with "covet."

Sloth:
Pirelli. Rather than try to make an honest living, he sells bogus elixirs and looks for get-rich-quick schemes. This is also his downfall when he tries to blackmail Todd.

Gluttony:
The townspeople, demanding "More hot pies."

If any one of the above had not committed his/her "sin," the overall horror of the show would've never happened. Of course, I don't know about vanity. Mr. Fogg?

[paradox_error]

Posted: 8/15/05 at 12:08pm

I don't think Mrs. Lovett is evil, she's simply capitalism gone crazy. All she cares about is the money, and is willing to do anything for it.

Her character is a brilliant example of the evils of capitalism. Mr. Bush, take heed...

[Chrismas42]

Posted: 8/15/05 at 12:25pm

Mr. Fogg could work as Vanity because he sells the hair and stuff from the people in the Asylum.


P.S.
Good Call on the sins thing.
Chris

[best12bars]

Posted: 8/15/05 at 12:58pm

Calvin - I'm taking my hat off to you and bowing humbly. Terrific analogy, and I love the idea of this story being allegorical. It's always seemed larger than the characters who are in it.

Well done!

[CurtainUp]

Posted: 8/15/05 at 1:09pm

I think Society's the evil one - I think the whole show is a brilliant social/political commentary. A Little Priest extends on teh phrase of it being a "dog eat dog world." "It's man devouring man, my dear!" IT's interesting how the priest, the one that's "too good", is the one who gets screwed over. This is a really interesting discussion and an absolute masterpiece.

Calvin, that is friggin brilliant.

Updated On: 8/15/05 at 01:09 PM

[GypsyRoseLee]

Posted: 8/15/05 at 1:59pm

I think it's impossible to condemn a character as being "pure evil." I don't believe that one person can be inherently evil. Everyone thinks that what they are doing is for the greater good even if their idea of that can be seriously skewed. Even though the reasons for her actions (getting Sweeney, money, etc..) are selfish and condemnable, to her, they are perfectly justifiable. Sure, her ACTIONS were evil, but by no means is she an evil PERSON.

[JayKid]

Posted: 8/15/05 at 2:16pm

I really liked the seven sin idea, each is very true.

I really think it's almost impossible to compare "evilness". How can you rate evilness? I don't think you can... the best way I heard to kind of see how evil someone is if you know what you are doing is wrong, but you do it anyway. In this case, you said that Sweeney was.

Well, I disagree completely with the evil statement, because someone who has gone completely insane can't be evil? There have been murderers in the past who have not thought what they did was truely wrong. Jeffery Domer I think was one to do weird experiments on his victims and like drill holes in their skulls and put acids in their to see if they could become zombie like. I doubt he really had a sense of morality... he just killed, as do others. And they, more so than someone killing for revenge IMO, are completely evil.

If anything, revenge makes him less evil, even if he knows it's wrong. He has a reason for it, and it's not a bad one IMO. His family was kind of taken away from him and he was left alone after being gone for 15 years. So now he's obviously going to want to kill, or get revenge in some way, those who did him wrong. However, it is still evil and with that small hint of evil, it grows and grows and engulfs him until he goes completely mad and *SPOILER (altho think msot have seen it it)*** realizes what he has done when he has killed his wife.

Mrs. Lovett, well she is evil, and I think she knows what she is doing is wrong, but has become evil over money as someone said, as well as trying to win over the love of Sweeney. She doesn't say anything about the wife, so she could have him... and she encourages and flames his rage to try and get him happy and so she stays on his side. It's something everyone does, you want to stay cool, so you allow bad things to happen around you or with friends that you want to like you. Now in this case it's with love and with revenge and death. The next step is to do it yourself, so like you and your friends throw rocks at cars, however, you are just watching, but finally you throw a rock or two and then don't care anymore and keep doing it, this is like the pies. She just goes overboard to try to win his affection with the pies and then they just go along with it because by this time, they have both gone past the line of no return.

I really don't think either of them are more or less evil than one another, and if anything they are evil WITH EACH OTHER. Each needs the other to be evil and if not for the other wouldn't have gotten so far.

It's like that for all the characters, each need each other to fuel the evil within for the most part. It just shows you how easily darkness inside someone can really spread, not only within one person, but to others as well.

I dunno, that's just my thoughts on it... I love the show though, and everything about it. It's more than entertainment sometimes because, it can make you think afterwards, this post is an example of that. Evil can really grab hold of any of us though, and I think this show depicts that.

[Carl Magnum]

Posted: 8/15/05 at 2:21pm

I gotta agree with Bobby on this one.

It's all in the way you play it. Lansbury played it a touch more insane and willing to do anything to be with the man she loved.

LuPone played in, in concert, with more evil undertones. It's tough to call her evil I think. Evil decisions, yes.

She can definitly be played with Evil intentions for her business to succeed(sp) The times can be blamed also. It's right in the lyrics. Desperate times call for desperate measures.

Lots and lots of factors to consider......

[jasonf]

Posted: 8/15/05 at 2:27pm

There's a single line in the play that convinces me that Mrs. Lovett is the evil one. Sweeney, I believe, is completely blinded by rage and insane. This cannot be considered evil.

Mrs. Lovett, on the other hand, is motivated by two things: greed (money) and lust (for Sweeney). Here's where it gets interesting. Think about the song "By The Sea." This is a culmination of her getting everything she wants - money and Sweeney. BUT - there's a line in it: "Every now and then you can do a guest in." If everything has been accomplished, and she STILL sees nothing wrong in doing these things (Sweeney doesn't acknowledge this line in any production I've ever seen), doesn't that itself mean that her views on morality, on the fact that these horrible acts are OK, even desirable, make her evil?

[best12bars]

Posted: 8/15/05 at 2:32pm

ANYONE who grinds people up into meat pies... ? Repeatedly. For whatever reason you want to give me...

Yep, you can call them evil.

[jasonf]

Posted: 8/15/05 at 2:35pm

Are cannibals, who believe it to be culturally acceptable, evil? Not saying yes or no, just asking...

[best12bars]

Posted: 8/15/05 at 3:55pm

I'll go you one better... Manson and his "Family" thought their own behavior was completely acceptible within their own private "culture." They saw nothing wrong with it in practice or philosphy.

...Are they evil?

[Calvin]

Posted: 8/15/05 at 4:05pm

Ugh. I read Montaigne in college, but you're asking me to remember something from, like, five years ago.

[James C]

Posted: 8/15/05 at 4:06pm

I think we are all forgeting that Judge Turpin is the REAL evil character... along with his henchman, the Beadle. The Judge is the one who rapes Lucy, kidnapps Barker's (Sweeney's) baby girl, and trumps up the fake charges against him, sending him to Botany Bay for the rest of his life. There are no redeeming qualities in a person like that.