Is a white person playing a role "of color"* considered racist? — Page 5

"I don't know that China has a history of excluding Caucasians from its national theater."

Exactly. Because you don't care enough to consider the possibility. Which was my point.

" I should have realized that you... [bla bla bla]... were making a point about how it's more important to point out the hypocrisy of mostly American people who consider racial issues in American theatre without contemplating alleged racism in China and Ghana on a board where we primarily talk about theatre in the western world."

You're absolutely right; we should never, under any circumstances whatsoever, open up any discussion more broadly than within the confines of the New York theatre district. That would be confusing.

Condescending isn't pretty, and you're usually quite pretty, Phyl.

Don't get hysterical, Phyl. You're not yourself when you're hysterical.

If you don't want to discuss anyone else's thoughts, just say so. A lengthy diatribe (is that redundant?) isn't necessary.

And let's be clear: people can make inadvertently racist comments without actually being racists. The difference is whether they can be called out on it and go, oh, I understand, or whether they make excuses for it.

Well said, Taryn. Thank you and I agree.

I do wish we had a separate term for thoughtless stereotyping as opposed to an actual hostility toward people based on immutable characteristics. Assuming that all African-Americans have great musical ability may be ignorant, but it isn't malicious.

You may not intend it, Phyl, but by wildly exaggerating and misrepresenting my post, you don't "discuss" it. You feel that this is, excuse the expression, a black and white issue. You believe that what you value in the specific time and place which you inhabit is a universal moral imperative, ignoring or belittling parts of the issue that don't matter to you, because it doesn't support a black and white point of view.

Asking questions that you don't like isn't trolling. Clearly you don't want to have a discussion. It seems you'd rather pontificate from what you feel is an unassailable moral promontory. I didn't expect that.

You may not intend it, Phyl, but by wildly exaggerating and misrepresenting my post, you don't "discuss" it.

This from the person who suggested people were saying Olivier was evil when he did blackface 60 years ago and later suggested that we were only talking about New York Theatre district theatre. As you were told, no one said anyone was evil, and since the OP was talking about a college production, I figured it was understood that weren't just talking about theatre in New York.

Clearly you don't want to have a discussion.

And your comment about China and Ghana was meant to add to the discussion? How? You've yet to say a single thing about it.

As pointed out when I was not having a discussion, the roots of racism in China are going to wildly different that the roots and manifestation of racism in the West, so someone's going to have contextualize it to have this discussion, which was ostensibly about doing shows about race in America when you don't have actors of the race you need.

So fine, I snarked my first few comments about you talking about China and Ghana but again, though your point seems to be A) Because we primarily talk about western theatre, your first non sequitur about China and Ghana means no one cares about an issue in Eastern theatre that we've to receive a single shred of actual information about and that B) Because you dared to talk about something other than New York theatre you're being shut down. So to point a, I say that without a single example of this theatrical conundrum in China or Ghana, I'm not sure what to say about it, and with point b, we already established this discussion was never strictly about theatre in New York. You brought China and Ghana up, and have offered zero insight into what you think, expect to imply that there's some onus on the people in this thread to have a concrete opinion about an abstract you've barely touched upon. Is it because you don't care if Caucasian people play minorities in this country?

Asking questions that others don't like is not trolling, you're right. But the statement you made about China and Ghana was, because it very little to do with the thread and you've made no effort since you brought it up to actually discuss it. Also trolling - calling out others for misrepresenting you while you've been misrepresenting others.

Updated On: 12/1/12 at 09:12 PM

Taryn, we don't have to pretend ignorance doesn't matter. But using the word "Hispanic" instead of "Latino" or "Chicano" (a sticking point among some Chicanos in the Southwest) is not the same thing as chaining a black man to your bumper and dragging him to death behind your car because of the color of his skin.

I don't see the benefit in pretending these are the same actions or that they arise from the same motivation. What we end up doing is trivializing the idea of "political incorrectness" by grouping it with actual hate crimes.

And we can't even have this conversation if everyone who thinks casting issues are overemphasized is to be lumped in with David Duke.

JMO, obviously.

Well said, Kad and Taryn. Sure, there are degrees of racism and there are levels of intent, but I don't think anyone is served by trying to parse the exact level of racism out of each and every individual act, especially since, like Kad said, no one is suggesting that a racist joke or miscasting a role that should be played by someone of color is tantamount to a hate crime.

I really like the tree analogy a lot, Kad.

Updated On: 12/1/12 at 11:29 PM

I think Kad and Phyllis have already eloquently answered on my behalf, but -- yeah, I definitely was not suggesting that these actions are the same. At all. I was saying that it's important to recognize all forms of racism for what they are, from the more "harmless" missteps born of ignorance or thoughtlessness to truly heinous actions, because generally, the latter eventually winds its way from the former. The reason people are eventually able to act out in violent acts of racism is that they were never taught earlier to thoughtfully consider how they speak about other people. Words shape ideas, very much in the vein of the tree metaphor Kad was using. It doesn't mean that everyone who makes an off-color joke is a racist about to commit a hate crime. But it does mean that everything starts somewhere, and that there's real reason to be thoughtful of how we treat subjects even in passing, or else people are trained not to care on a small level, which can in some cases grow to not caring on a big level.

"When a black tenor with the vocal and dramatic chops to sing the role emerges, then we'll talk"

That is some seriously f-ed up stuff right there, and that's only a sample of the, misguided, arrogrant, ethnocentric, willfully ignorant stuff I've seen in this thread.

To think that there is simply no minority actor/singer/whatever out there to fill the demands of a role rather than to admit that there is a systemic exclusion of minorities which creates this dearth of racially-appropriate performers is to be WILLFULLY ignorant to the issue of racism. One would rather make excuses for it than admit it.

This is, in my humble opinion, disgusting, naive or both.

Grow up. Look around you, stop being so f-ing privileged and try to understand the experience of others.

Are you trying out your After Eight impression or something?

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I too like Kad's tree analogy. It is quite eloquent, as a matter of fact.

But having separate words for leaves, twigs, branches, limbs, trunks and roots doesn't keep us from understanding they are all part of a tree.

Certain urban and academic communities are very sensitive to changes in language and the preferences of minority groups when it comes to nomenclature. I'm sorry, but I don't see what we accomplish by lumping all people outside those communities with hatemongers.

To make the example personal: this board once exploded when I used the direct object with a disability ("the autistic"). I just didn't know any better and was happy to be corrected. That is NOT the same impulse as insisting that ramps are a waste of public funds or that some people should be kept out of public view. It simply is not.

(ETA, Kad, if I'm using hyperbolic examples, it's only for clarity. No, I don't think anyone in this thread has exaggerated claims of racism.)

Updated On: 12/2/12 at 07:40 PM