JLP Controversy- Page 5

[BroadwayGirl107]

Posted: 4/16/21 at 1:11pm

HenryTDobson said: "Jordan Catalano said: "dramamama611 said: "Who gets to make the rules about what needs to be authentic and what is acting?"

Twitter.

"

This. I never understood the argument that straight guys shouldn't play gay parts. By that standard, shouldn't gay men not be allowed to play straight parts? And for this scenario, are trans people only permitted to play trans characters? It feels like it's not safe to play any character anymore without the possibility of being cancelled. I just can't keep up."

Because we live in a heteronormative society and it's considered "daring" when a straight actor plays gay while gay actors don't get as many opportunities, especially if they "read" gay. There are instances when straight actors do it well and that's fine, and I don't think there should be a a hard and fast rule but there should at least be an effort. 

But Patten IS queer.

[gigi1234]

Posted: 4/16/21 at 2:57pm

dramamama611 said: "Who gets to make the rules about what needs to be authentic and what is acting? Sexual orientation must match, but not religion? Race but not age? Gender Identification but not athletic ability?



"

it's about representation. if a community has barely been represented in media at all and then the one time they are being represented, it's from someone who doesn't belong to the community, there is a problem. it's also extremely difficult to authentically tell the story of an under represented group from the eyes of someone who is not in that group. marginalized groups are dealing with things that others outside of that group don't understand. now, if we were all equal and had equal representation this wouldn't be as big of an issue and it wouldn't matter who plays who because we would all be on the same playing field. we are not all on the same playing field. it's no way comparable to an all female production of a show that once had men in it. Men aren't oppressed. Men are completely represented in all forms in media.

This isn't a dig at Patten cause i genuinely believe the problems from JLP all pretty much lie on the producers and creative team, and she just got caught up in it. I agree with a lot of the notions above that Patten was the clear choice for this role because she could do those songs justice, but the creative team DEFINITELY made some missteps in the process that could have easily been avoided if they were more educated or had guidance from those in the trans community.

[teatime2]

Posted: 4/16/21 at 3:43pm

I gave up reading this thread because it's been mind-numbing how some of you are reacting. Non-Binary roles need to be played by non-binary actors. It is not a cisgender person's story to tell. Yes, they changed Jo's identity in the Broadway production, and that in and of itself is erasure. Lauren got flack for doing it in Boston so they changed it. We need to lift up those marginalized voices and not those who are further hurting broadway and its chance of becoming a more equitable work environment. 

[BroadwayGirl107]

Posted: 4/16/21 at 4:07pm

teatime2 said: "I gave up reading this thread because it's been mind-numbing how some of you are reacting. Non-Binary roles need to be played by non-binary actors. It is not a cisgender person'sstory to tell. Yes, they changed Jo's identity in the Broadway production, and that in and of itself is erasure. Lauren got flack for doing it in Boston so they changed it. We need to lift up those marginalized voices and not those who are further hurting broadway and its chance of becoming a more equitable work environment."

I wish you had read the thread, because this kind of an inaccurate framing of the issue. It's more that a nonbinary role was written for a cis actor, not the other way around. 

[oughtaknow]

Posted: 4/16/21 at 7:59pm

For whatever record, I love the show. I can tell you all the reasons why I shouldn’t, but I grew up on Alanis, love the arrangements, and the cast knocks them out of the park. I basically treat it like a concert.

 

 “Tried to address a social issue and ended up doing so in a surface-level and clumsy way” is a summary of the entire show, so it’s fairly believable to me that they didn’t see an issue with Patten playing the role until they were in too deep. And, as others have hashed out, their options were re-cast or “clarify” and you can’t re-cast Patten.

 

It’s possible that they were were trying to have a character who didn’t affirmatively identify as anything but wasn’t sure about their gender identity. Patten has talked in interviews about reconciling her identity with her presentation (she appears to dress very similarly to how the character is costumed) so that explanation would have made sense and wouldn’t put them in the position they’re in now. So I'm not sure why they're not saying that instead of the line that the character was always meant to be cis.

 

Because it really doesn't seem like the character was meant to be cis. Disclaimer that I haven’t personally seen anything from ART - but from the Twitter chatter/screenshots, it does seem like the character was non-binary and Lauren was confirming it on social media at the time. The “do you want to be a boy or a girl . . . if I got to choose, I would be a koala” exchange lasted through previews and is in the slime tutorial. That’s a touch more than a cis woman experimenting with presentation. 

 

I had a bad breakup in late 2019. I started seeing the show repeatedly (rush/lottery) because seeing someone who looked like me, screaming out what I was feeling, and bringing down the house meant a lot. I’m not bothered that Patten is bisexual and has a long term boyfriend. I would be very bothered if they told me that I misunderstood, I was wrong to see myself in this, and she was singing about losing her platonic friendship with Frankie. Doing that to non-binary people who saw themselves in the role just seems really ****ty. 

 

I don’t know how much this would affect ticket sales (despite having seen it a bunch, I’m not sure who is actually buying full priced tickets to this show) and I’m not sure that they can fire Patten (I know you can cast based on gender but can you fire someone?). Per Telecharge, the show isn’t coming back until October so lots of time to see how it plays out.

 

TL;DR: the book and character development of this show is a complete mess. 

[treblemakerz]

Posted: 4/16/21 at 8:26pm

oughtaknow: Yes yes yes yes. You nailed it. I've avoided commenting on this thread because talking about anything more than fluff on BWW feels like talking in circles, but I felt the exact same way. As a lesbian who was going through something very similar to (the Broadway incarnation of) Jo, it was so cathartic to watch that all just be screamed out onstage.

But then I think about how incredible that made me feel, and I think about how it would feel to have that taken away and told I imagined the whole thing and it could never have been meant to reflect me at all despite textual evidence to the contrary. I can't say I wouldn't be devastated. And bottom line that's what happened to nonbinary fans...on top of a lot more of the mess (and there is a lot, including what seems to be a discriminatory work environment if Ezra's and Nora's quips are anything to go by).

Updated On: 4/16/21 at 08:26 PM

[oughtaknow]

Posted: 4/16/21 at 9:03pm

treblemakerz said: "oughtaknow: Yes yes yes yes. You nailed it. I've avoided commenting on this thread because talking about anything more than fluff on BWW feels like talking in circles, but I felt the exact same way. As a lesbian who was going through something very similar to (the Broadway incarnation of) Jo, it was so cathartic to watch that all just be screamed out onstage.

But then I think about how incredible that made me feel, and I think about how it would feel to have that taken away and told I imagined the whole thing and it could never have been meant to reflect me at all despite textual evidence to the contrary. I can't say I wouldn't be devastated. And bottom line that's what happened to nonbinary fans...on top of a lot more of the mess (and there is a lot, including what seems to be a discriminatory work environment if Ezra's and Nora's quipsare anything to go by)."

Yes, yes, exactly! The thing that made me fall in love with this complete mess of a show feels very tainted and I doubt I'll be able to enjoy it anymore. 

I don't want to dive into whether Patten should have been cast in the first place (it's not really my place), I can see how she and TPTB ended up in a very bad position. But saying "no you all were wrong and misinterpreted this" (where, from what I've seen, the non-binary people connecting with Jo did not misinterpret) is just bad.

Just to be clear - I'm a lesbian who came of age in the early 00s. I am very used to combing through a text for crumbs of representation and being told by the creator that I am wrong. If the non-binary fans were completely off-base and reading something into Jo that wasn't there, TPTB have no obligation to honor that interpretation. My issue is that, upon reading further, I don't think that they were wrong. 

Updated On: 4/16/21 at 09:03 PM

[PipingHotPiccolo]

Posted: 4/17/21 at 9:11pm

teatime2 said: " Non-Binary roles need to be played by non-binary actors. It is not a cisgender person's story to tell."

Without getting into the substance of this opinion/declaration, do you feel the same about actors of different religions/races/genders playing roles, or is this limited to binary/non-binary disconnect?

[WestEndGal]

Posted: 4/18/21 at 4:40am

JDonaghy4 said: "LarryD2 said: "If you spend all your time on Twitter you start to think it's the whole world, but seven loud people is not the entire trans and nonbinary community."

this on every single issue. Social media gives everyone a platform which is GREAT but it means the loudest/most passionate/extreme people find each other (also GREAT) and then sound like a mass much larger than they actually are (not as great). That anyone here thinks that the couple of hundred? maybe thousand? people worked up over Tootsie or Lauren Patten or whatever issue constitutes a mass that will move anything fwd- its an understandable delusion, because Twitter will do that to ya.

Id also add, forgive me I dont remember who said it above, but this is a touch more of a legit issue than Tootsie was, in that at least this implicates an underlying concern in society..."

This! The constant outrage over anything and everything by the musical theater community and fans on twitter has just become too much, and way too toxic. All it does is diminish the impact altogether when people scream loudly over the smallest things. For a community that claims to be all about inclusivity and love,  where’s the grace? Where’s the willingness to even listen? This is not to say that there are not issues with how JLP has dealt with the Jo characterisation - of course when the non-binary community are telling you there’s a problem you should listen - and JLP’s explanation does seem a little disingenuous, but it seems like no matter what they say it won’t be enough.
 

The ~twitter mob~ these days only cares about virtue signalling and performative action most of the time. No one is perfect and yet apparently no one is allowed to be human anymore and have missteps, or god forbid, have an opinion that isn’t EXACTLY the same as your own. It’s no wonder why I’ve seen so many people leaving twitter - it’s just become a moralizing self-important sh*t show 99% of the time. And it’s frustrating, because as someone who is gay and has struggled with identity and my place in the world, I know there so many important issues that need to be addressed, but nothing gets effectively addressed by screaming about it on twitter. Things are much more nuanced and need more than knee jerk reactions. Like a few people screaming on twitter that Lauren Patten should be replaced or should resign - is this really effectively addressing anything, or is it just a box ticked for people to show that they’re on the ‘right side’?! 
 

I’m sorry if I sound so cynical, but I find myself eye rolling a lot at the moment when I see all this disingenuous virtue signalling on social media knowing how hypocritical most (or at least a lot) of it is. 

 

 

Updated On: 4/18/21 at 04:40 AM