JLP Controversy- Page 2

[bwayphreak234]

Posted: 4/13/21 at 4:28pm

Jordan Levinson said: "poisonivy2 said: "It's a jukebox musical. Has there ever been a jukebox musical that's had a good book?"

How wasGirl from the North Country?"

I loved Girl from the North Country - I saw it at both the Public and on Broadway. The book is pretty strong in my opinion.

[InTheBathroom1]

Posted: 4/13/21 at 5:57pm

Just saw that the social media page posted an apology which largely seems to be dismissed by those who found issue with it. I don’t think there’s a way to win with this one. But ultimately, angry teens and 20-somethings are not the ones buying tickets. I don’t think it’ll have much of an effect.

[KnewItWhenIWasInFron]

Posted: 4/13/21 at 7:13pm

bwayphreak234 said: "Jordan Levinson said: "poisonivy2 said: "It's a jukebox musical. Has there ever been a jukebox musical that's had a good book?"

How wasGirl from the North Country?"

I loved Girl from the North Country - I saw it at both the Public and on Broadway. The book is pretty strong in my opinion."

Agreed. The show is a stunner (technically, I guess "jukebox musical" is the right term but the songs aren't necessarily familiar and they're so re-contextualized that it doesn't feel like one at all). It's one of the finest shows I've seen in years.

[AC126748]

Posted: 4/13/21 at 7:35pm

So JLP set out to create the most self-consciously woke show in Broadway history, and it was ultimately undone for not being woke enough? As Alanis might say, Isn't it ironic...

[BroadwayGirl107]

Posted: 4/13/21 at 10:26pm

I wouldn't say the show is "undone". A couple dozen teenagers on Twitter weren't driving the success of the show anyway. 

Anyway, the "trans erasure" of the character of Jo literally happened because the nonbinary/trans understudy Ezra Menas complained to the creative team that if a cis person was playing the role, the character should be cis. That's the "involvement" they had in creating the role. I do believe THAT is irony. 

Updated On: 4/13/21 at 10:26 PM

[Sutton Ross]

Posted: 4/13/21 at 10:29pm

InTheBathroom1 said: "Just saw that the social media page posted an apology which largely seems to be dismissed by those who found issue with it. I don’t think there’s a way to win with this one. But ultimately, angry teens and 20-somethings are not the ones buying tickets. I don’t think it’ll have much of an effect."

Correct.

[gigi1234]

Posted: 4/14/21 at 1:18am

i believe the uproar is over the fact that the production originally cast a cis-gendered woman as a non-binary character, then changed the role to be cis-gendered in order to keep Lauren Patten in the role once they reached broadway, & then ultimately lied and said that the character was never non binary in the first place. i never saw the production at ART so it's difficult to say if the character truly was originally written as non-binary or if it was a misunderstanding that got blown out of proportion, but many people who saw it in boston are pretty adamant about it. Any one think there's a possibility of Lauren stepping down from the role? 

Updated On: 4/14/21 at 01:18 AM

[Lavieboheme3090]

Posted: 4/14/21 at 6:32am

So people are suggesting that an actor should be fired based solely on their sexual orientation in real life, and not an any other merit.

Am I missing something?

[bwayphreak234]

Posted: 4/14/21 at 6:35am

This is the same crowd of people who threw a tantrum over Tootsie. I think these people are just LOOKING for something to be offended by.

[AC126748]

Posted: 4/14/21 at 6:56am

gigi1234 said: "i believe the uproar is over the fact that the production originally cast a cis-gendered woman as a non-binary character, then changed the role to be cis-gendered in order to keep Lauren Patten in the role once they reached broadway, & then ultimately lied and said that the character was never non binary in the first place. i never saw the production at ART so it's difficult to say if the character truly was originally written as non-binary or if it was a misunderstanding that gotblown out of proportion, but many people who saw it in boston are pretty adamant about it. Any one think there's a possibility of Lauren stepping down from the role?"

Patten is the breakout star of the show. She's probably going to win the Tony. There is a 0% chance of her being replaced.

Although the Brooklyn Rail article comes across as an exercise in navel gazing, it does underscore what I think of as the show's fatal flaw. Paulus and Cody tried to do way too much and cover every hot-button social issue -- the opioid crisis, racism, sexuality, sexual assault, cross-racial adoption etc -- in a way that lacked nuance and understanding. Jo is an underwritten character and a lot of the controversy that people are ginning up could have been avoided if the character arc was clearer. At the end of the day, JLP is a mess of a show.

 

[dramamama611]

Posted: 4/14/21 at 8:30am

I "enjoyed" it in Boston, and yes the character was seemingly played as non-binary. But everything said here about the book is 100% spot on,a hot mess.   Ive never had any intention of seeing it again because of that.  But I enjoyed the musical numbers - even if totally over-choreographed.   The harmonies were pretty awesome, imo.

[Bettyboy72]

Posted: 4/14/21 at 9:07am

I’m comforted to know that Diablo wrote the script to Madonna’s biopic with Madonna Desmond breathing over her shoulder. Madonna would take the laptop from Cody and start typing. That should be interesting.

“What? Cut away from me? Put it back. Put it back!”

[gigi1234]

Posted: 4/14/21 at 10:13am

it’s about representation. there is not any non-binary representation on broadway, so to have a non binary role be played by a cis gendered woman is problematic. the main question i have is if the show actually lied about jo being non binary or not.

[Jordan Catalano]

Posted: 4/14/21 at 10:28am

You know how decades passed and basically every gay character was played by a straight person and while it’s not always done that way anymore, it’s still a thing and people don’t generally freak out because they’re actors and actors act as someone other than who they are?

Updated On: 4/14/21 at 10:28 AM

[BroadwayGirl107]

Posted: 4/14/21 at 10:38am

gigi1234 said: "it’s about representation. there is not any non-binary representation on broadway, so to have a non binary role be played by a cis gendered woman is problematic. the main question i have is if the show actually lied about jo being non binary or not."

The role didn't exist before Patten. She was the first person to play it from the very first draft, hell, they cast her before the draft was even finished.  And it's a fictional character. This isn't ScarJo coming in to play a real life trans person. 

[LarryD2]

Posted: 4/14/21 at 10:46am

dramamama611 said: "I "enjoyed" it in Boston, and yes the character was seemingly played as non-binary. But everything said here about the book is 100% spot on,a hot mess. Ive never had any intention of seeing it again because of that. But I enjoyed the musical numbers - even if totally over-choreographed. The harmonies were pretty awesome, imo."

Just out of curiosity, what elements of the production in Cambridge made it seem to you that Jo was conceived as a nonbinary character? On Broadway, I never imagined the character was anything other than a lesbian with a somewhat butch presentation, and some of the plot points raised in the article in question here are certainly not exclusive to trans and nonbinary people. The article also cites language from reviews, which is not always a perfect barometer for accuracy. 

Updated On: 4/14/21 at 10:46 AM

[Jordan Catalano]

Posted: 4/14/21 at 10:50am

In Boston, there was a thing where Jo and Frankie would get angry when she was called Joanne and then there was also a short scene where (if I remember correctly), Jo’s Mom and her talked about her not knowing if she was a girl or not. It’s been a few years so I don’t remember exactly but I think that was the point of the scene.

Updated On: 4/14/21 at 10:50 AM

[PipingHotPiccolo]

Posted: 4/14/21 at 11:02am

AC126748 said: "gigi1234 said: "i believe the uproar is over the fact that the production originally cast a cis-gendered woman as a non-binary character, then changed the role to be cis-gendered in order to keep Lauren Patten in the role once they reached broadway, & then ultimately lied and said that the character was never non binary in the first place. i never saw the production at ART so it's difficult to say if the character truly was originally written as non-binary or if it was a misunderstanding that gotblown out of proportion, but many people who saw it in boston are pretty adamant about it. Any one think there's a possibility of Lauren stepping down from the role?"

Patten is the breakout star of the show. She's probably going to win the Tony. There is a 0% chance of her being replaced.

Although the Brooklyn Rail article comes across as an exercise in navel gazing, it does underscore what I think of as the show's fatal flaw. Paulus and Cody tried to do way too much and cover every hot-button social issue -- the opioid crisis, racism, sexuality, sexual assault, cross-racial adoptionetc -- in a way that lacked nuance and understanding. Jo is an underwritten character and a lot of the controversy that people are ginning up could have been avoided if the character arc was clearer. At the end of the day, JLP is a mess of a show.

"

perfectly put. while this latest outrage is purely manufactured and faux, the only reason it has any legs at all is because these characters were so underdeveloped and the plot so desperate to MAKE A STATEMENT that it said absolutely nothing at all. I loved the music but 1500 New Yorkers nodding in earnest agreement that rape is bad, and feeling so proud of themselves for it. Shudder. A real disservice to the music.

if im following this right, though, the "controversy" is that the most lauded element of the show- Patten- isnt ENOUGH of whatever it is they want. no one-- ticket buyers, producers-- cares.

 

[JSquared2]

Posted: 4/14/21 at 11:11am

bwayphreak234 said: "This is the same crowd of people who threw a tantrum over Tootsie. I think these people are just LOOKING for something to be offended by."

Exactly.  They're even already "pre-offended" by Some Like it Hot!

[itsjustmejonhotmailcom]

Posted: 4/14/21 at 12:21pm

Thought this post from Dominique Morisseau was interesting.

https://www.facebook.com/dominique.morisseau/posts/10158718441726998

"I am NOT canceling my people. None of my people. Not for mistakes. For mis-steps. For art that doesn’t go the way that I wanted it to go...

...This does not mean that I don’t recognize lateral harm. This does not mean that when there is misogyny or anti-trans, anti-queer, anti-black, anti-aapi, anti-indigenous, anti-latinx, anti-mena harm, that I will stand for it or turn the other way or be gentler on the offenders because they are also marginalized.

But when I see artists attempting to make change. Take up space. Make art that shifts the paradigm, I will not cancel them for coming up short to my own scale. Who says my scale is not also broken? Who says my scale isn’t filtered through my own trauma? How can I lack grace for my own peoples and call myself anything other than another oppressor?"

[LarryD2]

Posted: 4/14/21 at 12:50pm

Thanks for the clarifications, Jordan. That's interesting. Some of those elements are still in the show but have been reframed in other ways that don't suggest a trans/nonbinary story line. I think AC126748 is right that the show tried to be all things to all people, and in doing so, they made a lot of sloppy mistakes that opened themselves up to criticism. And now they seem to be discussing that with a lack of transparency, which adds legitimacy to the claims. Oh well. 

[BroadwayGirl107]

Posted: 4/14/21 at 1:24pm

itsjustmejonhotmailcom said: "Thought this post from Dominique Morisseau was interesting.

https://www.facebook.com/dominique.morisseau/posts/10158718441726998

"I am NOT canceling my people. None of my people. Not for mistakes. For mis-steps. For art that doesn’t go the way that I wanted it to go...

...This does not mean that I don’t recognize lateral harm. This does not mean that when there is misogyny or anti-trans, anti-queer, anti-black, anti-aapi, anti-indigenous, anti-latinx, anti-mena harm, that I will stand for it or turn the other way or be gentler on the offenders because they are also marginalized.

But when I see artists attempting to make change. Take up space. Make art that shifts the paradigm, I will not cancel them for coming up short to my own scale. Who says my scale is not also broken? Who says my scale isn’t filtered through my own trauma? How can I lack grace for my own peoples and call myself anything other than another oppressor?""

This is a great post. 

PS, I vaguely remember Patten appearing on some queer podcast a while back and talking about how she likes to shop in the men's sections for clothes and her general exploration of gender nonconformity. She's also posted a bunch about wanting to play male roles. Has it occurred to any of these folks that perhaps she's on her own journey of understanding her identity similar to  the character isn't ready to talk about it for any number of reasons that are completely valid? Can't a queer person have space to figure themselves out? 

[fashionguru_23]

Posted: 4/14/21 at 2:27pm

When I hear this, my hope is that if Patten is on a journey with her identity, whether that be gender, sexual, emotional, etc. that we don't force her to come to a realization before she is ready over a character that she is playing. 

[Islander_fan]

Posted: 4/14/21 at 3:13pm

Between this and Tootsie, I feel that those who are trying to cause an issue are people who are stirring a pot that need not be stirred simply because they can. 

I agree with Jordan’s comment that, years ago, there were straight people who played characters who were gay, it is called acting for a reason. For example, I’m a fan of the  show Modern Family. It won the GLAAD media awards due to its wonderful depiction of a gay couple. But, while Jessie Tyler Ferguson is gay, Justin Mikita, who played his husband on the show is not. Yet, that didn’t stop the praise the show got for how those two characters were depicted. In fact, I remember watching an interview with the cast from the Paley Center. It was there where they said that the running joke on the set is that Justin is only “gay for pay.” 

[AC126748]

Posted: 4/14/21 at 3:38pm

The issue with Tootsie (and already with Some Like It Hot) is that they are trying to suggest that anything involving cross-dressing is inherently transphobic, which is ridiculous of course. I think the issue with JLP is a bit more nuanced, and there probably is some merit to having the discussion about how gender identity is portrayed in the show, but the Twitter mob has done themselves no favors by essentially stonewalling any viewpoint that doesn't affirm their foregone conclusions.