Jason Robert Brown Battles Music Copyright Infringment- Page 5

[SporkGoddess]

Posted: 7/1/10 at 12:38pm

Lately JRB seems to like writing shows about his personal issues, so maybe we'll get a musical about this eventually.

[newintown]

Posted: 7/1/10 at 12:46pm

I've been musing the last few days on JRB, since the concepts of success and failure fascinate me.

He's 40. It's unlikely he'll ever be more successful than he is now. Not impossible, just unlikely.

How successful is he now? He's had two shows on Broadway; one in a non-profit house which won a Tony for Best Musical and Best Score but closed very quickly, the other an utter financial disaster. He had some music inserted into the score of a third Broadway show which was also a financial disaster. He's written two Off-Broadway shows; one ran 12 performances, one ran 2 months. He has never had a song on the Top 100 pop charts. Some of his work receives regional and amateur productions.

He has done some incidental music for a few plays, and has worked as a musician and arranger on a few shows.

In spite of this lack of financial success, he has received good press, and has admirers.

But how many people outside his fan base know his name? And how many people can we say are fans? His Facebook fan page has 8,942 names. Maybe we can round up to 10,000?

I find it interesting that he, with David Yazbeck, Michael Jon LaChiusa, Adam Guettel, Ricky Ian Gordon, Frank Wildhorn (others?) are the most prolific of music theatre writers in the 30-50 age range. And yet none of them has achieved the financial success in the theatre of Kander & Ebb, Sondheim, Porter, Berlin, Bock & Harnick, Jerry Herman, etc. (Wildhorn has money from a handful of pop songs, right?)

I'm not sure where this musing leads, except I can understand how he could be unhappy enough to focus on teenagers who copy his songs without giving him the $4. I wonder if Sondheim would care about stray copies of "Losing My Mind" being passed around? If Fred Ebb asked people not to Xerox "Don't Tell Mama?" It's probably easier to overlook these things when your work has bought you two homes and lifetime security.

And then there are the even lesser known writers (Lowdermilk & Kerrigan, for instance) who happily give their work away for free, knowing that it's the best way to build a wider reputation. But is Brown beyond that stage, trapped in a limbo of being not famous and not unknown at the same time?

That must be rough.
Updated On: 7/1/10 at 12:46 PM

[sondhead]

Posted: 7/1/10 at 12:52pm

"Obviously, for a single song's sheet music (which is what the original exchange was about)it would be hard to use a "portion". However, if the song is one of many in a song book, I imagine that clause would rightfully be in effect. Thus I would think the teacher/coach handing copies of sheet music would prove to be legal."

I'm not sure of the exact legal wording, but I do know that copying an entire song out of an anthology and calling it fair educational use because its an excerpt from said anthology is not correct. The educational fair use clause was meant to allow for excerpts (a page... selected measures, etc) not entire works / songs.

[Eris0303]

Posted: 7/1/10 at 1:00pm

But...are we agreeing that photocopies of songs for an audition book ARE covered under fair use?

I think part of it is intent. To go back to my example about the cross-stitch patterns. I make a copy because I intend to write all over it. If I write all over the pattern in the book I'll never be able to use it again. But if I make a copy and write on the copy I can reuse the same pattern.

I've never been on a professional audition so my knowledge is limited. But I have to think that many of the photocopies in a performer's audition books probably have some sort of notes he/she has made. Notes that don't want to damage the copy they purchased with. Or that it is simply easier to hand an accompanist a photocopy as opposed to a whole book.

[SporkGoddess]

Posted: 7/1/10 at 1:09pm

newintown, could you PM me your reasons for disliking JRB's work? I'm asking because I've heard criticism of his music before and I'd like to hear what your specific thoughts are.

[DeNada]

Posted: 7/1/10 at 1:11pm

Some of his work receives regional and amateur productions.

Some of his work receives HUNDREDS of regional and amateur productions all over the world. The recording of THE LAST FIVE YEARS sold enough copies to really get Sh-K-Boom Records going - it's pretty much what the label was founded for. His songs are completely overdone at auditions and cabarets - which will mostly be done by people who've bought his vocal selections. I'm guessing he's a lot more successful and well known than the LaChiusas and Ricky Ian Gordons of this generation.

Don't underestimate the income a composer/lyricist can make from a show's future life on the international and amateur circuit. 13 seems conceived entirely to make pots of money from middle schools around the world, for instance - who cares how big a success it was on Broadway?

And then there are the even lesser known writers (Lowdermilk & Kerrigan, for instance) who happily give their work away for free, knowing that it's the best way to build a wider reputation. But is Brown beyond that stage, trapped in a limbo of being not famous and not unknown at the same time?

Aren't Kerrigan and Lowdermilk part of that newmusicaltheatre.com website that now sells their sheet music, along with Pasek & Paul, Adam Gwon et al? Doesn't sound like they're giving away their sheet music any more, at least.

I do agree that JRB, more than any of the other modern MT writers, is stuck in a kind of "fame" limbo - but maybe a more prolific output would help that? It's not like all of Sondheim's shows were massive successes, but there are so many of them that all the amateur/foreign productions generate lots and lots of moolah.

The other "problem" with JRB, more so than with Sondheim, is that his work has been embraced by a much younger audience in an age when copyright infringement is so much EASIER and seen as almost consequence free; a world where cast recordings are on Megaupload before they've even made it into the shops. Copyright infringement is a much bigger threat to modern authors than it ever was for people whose heyday was the 20th century.

(also JRB has always been a bit of an angry man, so his reaction and stance is hardly a massive surprise!)

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 7/1/10 at 3:00pm

He's had two shows on Broadway; one in a non-profit house which won a Tony for Best Musical and Best Score but closed very quickly, the other an utter financial disaster.

Parade was nominated for Best Musical, but didn't win. It won for Book and Score. Fosse won Best Musical, though I never really understood why. Especially Orchestrations. That one made no sense to me at all.

Wildhorn has money from a handful of pop songs, right?

He was making buckets of money from J&H before and after the financial failure of the Broadway production and the show is endlessly produced in regional, community and international productions. Plus, he's quite popular in Europe and Japan as well as on the concert circuit. While Wildhorn has yet to have a hit on Broadway, it doesn't mean he hasn't been financially successful.

[My Oh My]

Posted: 7/1/10 at 6:05pm

I remember this one bootleg site I came across a while back, where a bootlegger posted in a fury, basically scolding another bootlegger for having the nerve to distribute some bootleg after he had clearly told him not to.

Distribution of said bootleg ceased immediately.

Not condemning bootleggers. Just thought that was interesting.

Updated On: 7/1/10 at 06:05 PM

[philly03]

Posted: 7/1/10 at 7:27pm

" (Wildhorn has money from a handful of pop songs, right?) "

Frank did an interview a few years back and I believe he said he gets half of the writer royalties of the song. He wrote it with Chuck Jackson, but Chuck only came up with the title / concept. Frank generally doesn't write the lyrics for his shows (or not full songs anyway), but even in his concerts he jokes that his accountant isn't happy he only got half! He also credits the song for giving him the "freedom to write for the theatre."

Wildhorn made it big off of Linda Eder's music, a few other pop singles, European productions (as mentioned above), as well as cast album sales of his albums, as well as he has been head of the Atlantic Records Theatrical version and now is part of the Masterworks Broadway division team at Sony.

Shockingly, Wildhorn's definitely got one of the worst cases of things being leaked. While I know him & his team aren't happy about it, it amazes me they haven't cracked down more.


I almost agree that Brown may be past his success. I'm a big fan of one of his "muses" Lauren Kennedy, and especially her "Songs of Jason Robert Brown" album, and like "Songs of a New World" & "The Last 5 Years" enough, but the rest of his works don't necessarily make me any more excited (Although I can't say I know Parade enough). "13" almost made me feel embarrassed while sitting there watching it.


I think Frank Wildhorn (since he was brought up and in the "trading" community his stuff is posted all over) and Jason Robert Brown couldn't be different in the way they handle this. It seems that Frank/co. wants to have a control on it, but notice that it is undeniably a way to build a big fanbase for a piece. JRB clearly wants to gain profit off his stuff. I think that it's also interesting to note that someone like Frank in which a little demo of a show can either really excite some people or turn them off to it... it works both ways and it's a gamble, but it's a way to gain already Broadway fan base interest.

I don't think that sheet music & all that should go unpunished, but it does do some free advertising. Atleast, I would think that the composer/etc would make more money off of a Song than piece of sheet music... and the majority of people after hearing a song would want to more than likely BUY the song since most un-Broadway folk don't even know a trading community exist!

[LuminousBeing]

Posted: 7/1/10 at 7:34pm

Updated On: 7/1/10 at 07:34 PM

[asafermusic]

Posted: 7/2/10 at 3:13pm

When first reading about the blog my sister is featured in, I was stuck… As her brother I should take her side but as a composer I should be completely against what she is doing. It made me sit down and think about both sides of the argument. My conclusion is quite simple: Both are correct and both are wrong.

I agree with JRB about copyright laws prohibiting it, protecting one’s own work, etc. but some do not have a choice. The problem lies in that many composers think of this as an insult when really it is a compliment. Because music has evolved to be harder, and more impressive, it is also harder to obtain as there is more of it. Yes, it is very wrong to download it and only use it for personal gain, such as a concert that makes money, or a public performance.

Although…
I do recall that copyright laws are a bit grey in the area that is education. From what I understand with “fair use” and all that, is if it is for educational purposes… then it is not illegal. In that light, Brenna (Eleanor is her middle name, for some reason she does not like to go by her first name) is not wrong in HER use of it. She was wrong sharing it with those who might not have used it for education, but she always does.

Some forget that even though copyright laws protect the composer there are certain instances that do not need the expressed permission of the rights holder.

As a composer, educator, business owner, and performer, I always agree that copyright laws should be followed, but do not think that everyone who seems to be breaking them are actually breaking them. I do agree something has to be done with websites that make it easy for those who are not in school, using the copies for personal gain, to access them. Shutting down these websites though will only make things worse and make the culprits try even harder to access said works of art/literature. Maybe instead, people that are against such acts of illegality should push to have a username and password instituted so that the website must confirm the individual IS actually a student such as how Facebook did back when it first started up (you had to have a “.edu” email to sign up).

That’s just my view though.
-Aaron Safer

Oh and PS, Eris, don't ever say a little girl should be slapped for her views on something.

[Eris0303]

Posted: 7/2/10 at 3:17pm

Her views? You can't really have "views" on the law. She was in the wrong and treated an elder with disrespect when it was pointed out to her. Those aren't "views".

JRB was attempting to educate her and she didn't want to listen. If she were to address her teachers in this manner when they tried to educate her I have to imagine school would be quite difficult for her.

And if you'll read through the whole thread quite a number of people suggested she needed a good slapping. Would any of those people across slap her? Probably not. It's a a turn of phrase that is often used in reference to people who come off as bullheaded or speak as if they are right when they are wrong.

Edited because the site had a hiccup before I could finish my thoughts

Updated On: 7/2/10 at 03:17 PM

[SporkGoddess]

Posted: 7/2/10 at 4:02pm

Seriously, philly, I actually think JRB should be worshipping Breanna/Eleanor for saying that 13 was brilliant. I am a huge fan of his work and I think it was awful.

You should check out Parade, though--it's his best, IMO.

[sweeneytodd2]

Posted: 7/2/10 at 5:20pm

JRB also recently tried to lead a crusade against NYMF's 2010 festival contracts. However, he failed to realize that NYMF is a non-profit organization struggling to stay afloat in an economic recession. I think that JRB is aware (perhaps subconsciously) that he is past his prime, and is now distracting himself by painting himself as a vigilante of the musical theater world. It's kind of sad. He should at least try to write another show.

[algy]

Posted: 7/2/10 at 5:33pm

Someone mentioned a few pages back about how much you're allowed to photocopy of something. As I remember it (and I'm in the UK so it's probably different in the states, but I thought it might still be of interest) if you (or your educational establishment) has the right licence, you're permitted to copy ten percent or 1 chapter of a book, or 1 article from a journal. I can't remember what the percentages are for magazines/newspapers. So it'd imagine that for a music book it'd be 1 song or 10 percent of the book?

[Taryn]

Posted: 7/2/10 at 5:33pm

I agree with JRB about copyright laws prohibiting it, protecting one’s own work, etc. but some do not have a choice.

I'm sorry. Are you saying that, if you cannot afford something, you should be able to have it anyways? Because you have no other way of getting it except through theft?

People are not entitled to have everything they want.

[philly03]

Posted: 7/2/10 at 5:34pm

"Seriously, philly, I actually think JRB should be worshipping Breanna/Eleanor for saying that 13 was brilliant. I am a huge fan of his work and I think it was awful.

You should check out Parade, though--it's his best, IMO."

Haha I agree. It was so atrocious, although I remember enjoying one of the sngs they cut (sung by the bad girl) and "Lamest Place in the World." The rest... ouch. I have the Parade Cast Recording and love Carmello, so I've listened to a hunk of it, just not in a long while. I will forever always love his song "I'd Give It All for You"! What a wonderful song and then several songs from 13 make me go, please tell me someone else wrote the lyrics... but then again a lot of his songs have similar musical structures to my naked ear... ("And I Will Follow" and "Goodbye Until Tomorrow" both from Kennedy's solo album sound alike)


I think JRB is also a leader in that whole "raw" pop scores too. I happen to love the way he generally orchestrates his shows (with a heavy emphasis on the piano but still plenty of other instruments) although I'm not sure if he orchestrates them.

And I do agree about him being past his prime... which is an interesting point sweeneytodd2. I think there's two ways to keep going: trudge ahead and keep making music/shows "for the fans" or by doing something like this, prove that you are out for money, which is what I generally got from this. He didn't have to bring up the him making a profit thing as much as he did...

[AEA AGMA SM]

Posted: 7/2/10 at 5:35pm

I know several composers who were upset about the changes to NYMF's contract this year for the very same reasons that he articulated.

[sweeneytodd2]

Posted: 7/2/10 at 6:04pm

The NYMF contract sucks and internet piracy sucks, but Jason Robert Brown is a composer. He should be writing shows instead of obsessively updating his twitter and being an agitator for the sake of it.

[iflip4musicals]

Posted: 7/2/10 at 6:13pm

Georgia Stitt adds to the conversation...
Link

[Taryn]

Posted: 7/2/10 at 6:37pm

The NYMF contract sucks and internet piracy sucks, but Jason Robert Brown is a composer. He should be writing shows instead of obsessively updating his twitter and being an agitator for the sake of it.

Yes. People should never be allowed to have opinions about things that directly relate to their livelihood. They should just sit down, shut up, and do their jobs.

[sweeneytodd2]

Posted: 7/2/10 at 6:43pm

They should at least do their jobs. JRB has not been performing his duties lately as self appointed "showtune messiah."

[Taryn]

Posted: 7/2/10 at 6:57pm

I'm sorry, do you have some sort of contract with him? If he doesn't need the money and he's not under contract with someone to work, it's not as if he's required to spit out song after song for general consumption. And that's assuming he isn't working on composing.

[sweeneytodd2]

Posted: 7/2/10 at 7:10pm

This is the point I'm trying to make: JRB seems to be past the creatively fecund period of his life. Standing on a soapbox and spouting about these issues is his way of distracting himself from this fact and maintaining a sense of purpose. Of course this is just bitchy speculation on my part, but I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.

[ghostlight2]

Posted: 7/2/10 at 11:19pm

Sure. You're saying you like to indulge in bitchy speculation. Why - and why is he past his "creatively fecund period"?