Jessica Vosk- Anita Video- Page 4

[NOWaWarning]

Posted: 12/8/18 at 2:52am

I agree that racial divides are at the crux of WSS, but apparently in the casting of the movie the creators didn’t emphasize it as much as some on this board would have preferred it to be. Maria and her brother were played by actors who were the children of Russian immigrants to the United States. It didn’t impact the intensity of the racial divide for me when seeing the movie. In other words, this comparison of casting WSS to POTO is pretty ineffective.

I would hope we’ve come a long way since 1961, but maybe that’s an overly optimistic worldview.

 

[Elfuhbuh]

Posted: 12/8/18 at 7:28am

1961 was also only a few years after there was an all-white cast playing Egyptians and ancient Hebrews in The Ten Commandments, so maybe we shouldn’t hold the WSS film to the same standards we hold things to today.

[Sondheimite]

Posted: 12/8/18 at 1:51pm

Jumping back into this conversation:

Race DOES matter in casting... sometimes.

There are some roles where race is a defining factor in the character/story.  Ragtime, Hairspray, Driving Ms Daisy, West Side Story.... these are shows where race is a very important story factor.  You don't want to see a white Coalhouse Walker Jr or a black Maria because it would be a disservice to the story the show is trying to tell.  Roles such as the characters in Phantom, Les Miserables, Jesus Christ Superstar, and most other musicals where race is NOT an important story telling factor in casting should be 100% open to the most talented person of any face who fits the director's vision for the part.

BUT... this was one song from a concert.  This wasn't a performance of West Side Story.  Even the album she performs Anita on is a symphonic recording of the score, not a production of the show (though, I'd argue there's more of a case for being salty as Vosks casting on the album than there is in this discussed concert).

Let's say that I, a white man, sing Make Them Hear You at a friends funeral.  Is that racist because it comes from a show where, in the context of the show, the song is sung by a black man?  No, it is not racist.  Because it's singing a song out of the shows context at a concert/event where one isn't telling a broader story or playing a character.   

Should she had done the dialect in A Boy Like That?  Probably not.  But the director allowed this and possibly even told her too.  She is just a working actress doing what she is told.  This is a complex issue but sadly, like MOST of the social justice movement, it's turned into a totally binary "this is wrong, this is right" thing so that the internet lynch mob can feel validated by their "moral superiority."  Who would have ever thought that the progressive left in this country would be the next to bring in a form of aggressive McCarthyism?

Updated On: 12/8/18 at 01:51 PM

[natashalost]

Posted: 12/8/18 at 2:30pm

After reading the posts on here I've changed my opinion. I completely agree with Sondheimite's last post. The biggest problem I have with this situation is her response to the fans. Race is a sensitive issue and she should have been more sensitive to the people who found issue with her performance/post and were polite about it. 

[WickedFan1615]

Posted: 12/8/18 at 3:02pm

natashalost said: "After reading the posts on here I've changed my opinion. I completely agree with Sondheimite's last post. The biggest problem I have with this situation is her response to the fans. Race is a sensitive issue and she should have been more sensitive to the people who found issue with her performance/post and were polite about it."

Just curious.  What about her response did you find insensitive or rude?  

Updated On: 12/8/18 at 03:02 PM

[empalace]

Posted: 12/9/18 at 8:23am

CindersGolightly said: "Why am I not seeing the same reaction Sierra Boggess got? I guess when it’s an actress you like, it’s fine..? I don’t know, y’all. I gave up my regional theatre debut because they asked us to do redface. Obviously not the same thing, really, but my integrity isn’t for sale.

Also, she wasn’t just given this job. Do you people know how the business works at all? Jessica Vosk wasn’t called up out of the blue for this. She auditioned for the production in 2014, and because of that glaring mistake, she was brought back here. Am I saying her performance on the album is bad? No. But it did convince me she was Latina up until today. And THAT’S a big yikes."

 

Yeah no it’s not okay when ANY white person without Latin descent use this accent. 

[Dave28282]

Posted: 12/9/18 at 8:52am

Equality starts where racial separation ends.

People need to realize this more. There are tons of accents, from all over the world. Some of these accents were used by groups that have been oppressed in the last century, some that have not been oppressed at all and some in between.

When you make a list of accents that are allowed and accents that are not allowed, you are actually making a racial separation. By doing so, you create a bigger gap, which the world will never accept. No group in the world will ever accept this. So it's a wrong road.

This is not only for accents, but also for roles/characters in general. Because if you maintain this mindset, can a black person play Cosette in les Mis? In my opinion, of course she can. Actors should play with all colors and accents. And it is happening in about every show and movie I see. The problem here is maintaining a 1 way street, which is the opposite of equality. You can't demand for (for example) latino or black people to play roles of every race and accent, and at the same time forbid other races to do so. You can't demand privileges over others and you can't compromise others rights of equality because you feel harm has been done to you in the past. You are doing harm in return right now. This mindset of "victimizing yourself" when you see opportunity in combination with deciding to take rights away from other races as it suits you, is one of the most ugly things of this century. It is the core of racism.

Updated On: 12/9/18 at 08:52 AM

[Dave28282]

Posted: 12/9/18 at 8:58am

GreeneStreet said: "But you also have to realize that white puerto rican’s do exist."

Yep, and many white Puerto Rican's with that accent too. But I guess it's easier for some people to deny them, to show how "inclusive" their mindset really is.

Updated On: 12/9/18 at 08:58 AM

[ViniFromBrazil]

Posted: 12/9/18 at 10:28am

It took this subject four pages for the always warm and welcoming appearance of the argument "pointing out race issues is the core of racism", I guess this is a win for broadway world, congrats.

[BroadwayRox3588]

Posted: 12/9/18 at 10:52am

To answer a couple questions on here. No, Stan Twitter teens do not know how this business works. They have no idea. They just know how many likes & retweets their posts get, who gets cast in their high school's shows, and how to earn "woke" points (even if they have no idea what they're talking about).

[PattyO'Furniture]

Posted: 12/9/18 at 11:38am

Dave28282 said: "The problem here is maintaining a 2 way street, which is the opposite of equality. You can't demand for (for example) latino or black people to play roles of every race and accent, and at the same time forbid other races to do so [...] This mindset of "victimizing yourself" when you see opportunity in combination with deciding to take rights away from other races as it suits you, is one of the most ugly things of this century. It is the core of racism."

Exceptional clarity in this statement.

If Cynthia Errivo had played this concert part and posted this video, would this outrage exist in the first place?  The unrefutable answer says it all.    

This reminds me of how the word "diversity" is as misused as "equality".  "Diversity" used to mean including individuals of multiple backgrounds; today, it means excluding those appearing "white" in an effort to give those presenting "non-white/PoC" preferential treatment - slice it any way you want, but that initiative IS racism.  I'm not saying either is wrong or that either is right- both happen regularly: one is condemned; the other is promoted.  If you want an all-white/non-PoC cast, perfect!  If you want an all-black/non-white/PoC cast, bravo, and I love it!  Do what you want.  But own what you do.                 

Back to the topic: Is the outrage at the accent that it encourages a perception that a certain group of people is disposable/replaceable/imitable?  Is the position that it "minstrelizes" a culture?  I can't figure that out b/c I do not think the accent is poor or disrespectfully executed; I think it is well and thoughtfully done by an expert at her craft (singing, not accents).    

 

[NOWaWarning]

Posted: 12/9/18 at 3:36pm

Dave, I’m genuinely curious what your response is to the argument that shows where race is a central theme (like it is in West Side Story, Ragtime, etc) should be more conscious of race when casting than shows where it is not a theme (Les Mis, Phantom, etc). This question admittedly goes beyond this specific example since Vosk was just singing an Anita song in a concert, but I’m just trying to better understand your point of view.

Because, for me, seeing a white actor play Anita or Maria or Sarah or Coalhouse would completely take me out of the story. As would an actor of color playing Tony or Mother. It would contradict the story being told. However, seeing a black actress play Cosette, to borrow your example, wouldn’t phase me because Les Mis isn’t a story about race. Even though it might not necessarily be historically accurate, I can suspend my disbelief because the text isn’t calling attention to the character’s race. What are your thoughts on this?

[GreeneStreet]

Posted: 12/9/18 at 3:51pm

This will be my final comment on this issue, but like I said earlier White puerto ricans do exsist. Of course, the argument always is “well yeah, but the accent is offensive”.

Well, there are tons of mexican american actresses who fake an accent, so why shouldn’t a white person fake an accent since white puerto ricans are real.

The problem is, people are gonna bitch and moan over any casting that has to do with a white person.

If they casted lets say an asian american or an african american, it would be celebrated as a great example of colorblind casting, and that the show is being amazing at giving POC work in the theatre!

If a white woman doing a latino accent, (playing a white puerto rican) shouldn’t it be offensive when a POC is doing Eliza doolittle?

Theres only outrage when it’s a white person, and the public has a chance at getting “woke” points.

[ViniFromBrazil]

Posted: 12/9/18 at 4:15pm

GreeneStreet said: "This will be my final comment on this issue, but like I said earlier White puerto ricans do exsist. Of course, the argument always is “well yeah, but the accent is offensive”.

Well, there are tons of mexican american actresses who fake an accent, so why shouldn’t a white person fake an accent since white puerto ricans are real.

The problem is, people are gonna bitch and moan over any casting that has to do with a white person.

If they casted lets say an asian american or an african american, it would be celebrated as a great example of colorblind casting, and that the show is being amazing at giving POC work in the theatre!

If a white woman doing a latino accent, (playing a white puerto rican) shouldn’t it be offensive when a POC is doing Eliza doolittle?

Theres only outrage when it’s a white person, and the public has a chance at getting “woke” points."

 

Wow.

 

I really wish I could find a video of a black/asian actress faking other POC's accents on YT just to materialize how stupid your point is. But guess what, I couldn't find any. Where are they?

Funny.

And the only thing that is more ridiculous than teenagers posting online in search of validation is all the other ones around burping out arrogance while trying to dismiss simply everything that's brought up. Talk about generational issue.

If siding with "fake woke" adolescents means at least acknowledging a race issue and not sweeping it under the rug because "oh well this is the business I always recognized how dare it be criticized and how dare people having an outlet to criticize it and not me when I was younger and computers only did the math", then I side with fake woke adolescents thank you very much.

I can only give thanks you had no YT when you were younger.

[FactsAreFacts]

Posted: 12/9/18 at 4:23pm

GreeneStreet said: "If they casted (sic) lets say an asian american or an african american, it would be celebrated as a great example of colorblind casting, and that the show is being amazing at giving POC work in the theatre!

Theres only outrage when it’s a white person, and the public has a chance at getting “woke” points."

Obviously this is GreeneStreet's opinion and they are entitled to that opinion, I just disagree with it. While the level of "anger" might be different – mainly because Asian and African-Americans haven't benefitted from institutional prejudices for decades nearly as much as white people have –  I think that there would still be many of the same people opposed to casting a non-Latina WOC as Maria in a production of "West Side Story" (I do agree with many that this has been an unwarranted overreaction to a performance in a concert).

And of course there are white, black, and Asian-presenting Puerto Ricans (and Latinx in general), but Vosk is not one, which is why – again, in my opinion – that is the problem, as opposed to how they physically present. 

[Catsbroadwayfan]

Posted: 12/9/18 at 4:28pm

I agree with Greenestreet when it comes to the fact that, white puerto ricans are real. So for maria, are only certain shades allowed?

The argument can go both ways, what these people are arguring are flat out dumb.

Should every actor in frozen have norewigen decent?

Should evety actor in Anastasia have Russian decent?

So by saying only dark shades can play maria, you are eliminating and denying the existence of white latinos.

While Vosk, has no latino decent, the same could be said for almost all actors playing roles.

So with everyone's thought process, should there be ancestor.com dna kits at every audition to determine if their culture is deemed acceptable for the role?

Updated On: 12/9/18 at 04:28 PM

[Dave28282]

Posted: 12/9/18 at 6:37pm

ViniFromBrazil said: "It took this subject four pages for the always warm and welcoming appearance of the argument "pointing out race issues is the core of racism", I guess this is a win for broadway world, congrats."

Demanding that your race of choice must play roles of every race and accent, and at the same time forbid other races to do so, demanding privileges over others because of race and compromising others rights of equality, "victimizing yourself" when you see opportunity in combination with deciding to take rights away from other races as it suits you, is NOT "pointing out race issues". It is the issue.

[Dave28282]

Posted: 12/9/18 at 6:54pm

NOWaWarning, of course it differs per show. In Dreamgirls it's quite essential, but one could argue if a Russian Aristocrat in last century could have been a black woman, or that the daughter of a Swedish violinist would be equally believable in any color, or that a lion can supposedly only be black, etc, but given the fact that many people in africa are actually white (and animals don't even have any human race) and many Puerto Ricans are also actually white, it seems like a case of racial preference and looking for things to be able to create racial separation.

Updated On: 12/9/18 at 06:54 PM

[Dave28282]

Posted: 12/9/18 at 7:04pm

FactsAreFacts said: "mainly because Asian and African-Americans haven't benefitted from institutional prejudices for decades nearly as much as white people have "

So that is supposed to be an argument for racial separation and exclusion in return?

FactsAreFacts said: "And of course there are white, black, and Asian-presentingPuerto Ricans (and Latinx in general), but Vosk is not one, which is why – again, in my opinion – that is the problem, as opposed to how they physically present."

A white person does physically represent a white person of any descent. Especially in theatre.
If there's 2 white people for a role, and you deny 1 of them the role because of racial preference, that's wrong. Or should we now bring a DNA test to each casting, and what about a gay test? Or a proof that someone is a real rapist, or bipolar, or really in love with the co-star? You really need to learn what the words "human" and "acting" mean.
 

Updated On: 12/9/18 at 07:04 PM

[FactsAreFacts]

Posted: 12/9/18 at 7:15pm

Dave28282 said: "FactsAreFacts said: "mainly because Asian and African-Americans haven't benefitted from institutional prejudices for decades nearly as much as white people have"

So that is supposed to be an argument for racial separation and exclusionin return?
 

Huh? All I said is that I didn't think it would generate as much "anger" having a non-Latina, POC play Anita, but that it still would generate quite a bit. That made no statement on anything other than that. 


FactsAreFacts said: "And of course there are white, black, and Asian-presentingPuerto Ricans (and Latinx in general), but Vosk is not one, which is why – again, in my opinion – that is the problem, as opposed to how they physically present."

A white person does physically represent awhite person of any descent. Especially in theatre.
If there's 2 white people for a role, and you deny 1 of them the role because of racial preference, that's wrong.
"

You are using terms like "white" that are not complete or accurately applied in this situation, and I think you know it, but you (as usual) are choosing to try and twist them to get back to the same trite, illogical argument you always make.

Just as an example that we are all familiar with, Krysta Rodriguez is a Latina actress who can pass for white/caucasian/European/whatever term you want to use to describe it. But, she is Latina.

If she is up for a role against an actress who also appears to be white/caucasian/European/whatever term you want to use and has zero Latina heritage, AND the role is for a Latina character, it is not wrong for Krysta to get the role because she is actually as the character is described. 

That's why I used the term white-presenting, because there is a difference. But, again, I am fairly confident that you know that, but it doesn't fit your worldview, so you ignore it. 

[Dave28282]

Posted: 12/9/18 at 7:22pm

FactsAreFacts said: " All I said is that I didn't think it would generate as much "anger" having a non-Latina, POC play Anita, but that it still would generate quite a bit. That made no statement on anything other than that."

But the statement in itself is a very unhealthy racial separation. The mindset is what's wrong.



FactsAreFacts said: "
Just as an example that we are all familiar with, Krysta Rodriguez is a Latina actress who can pass for white/caucasian/European/whatever term you want to use to describe it. But, she is Latina.

If she is up for a role against an actress who also appears to be white/caucasian/European/whatever term you want to use and has zero Latina heritage, AND the role is for a Latina character, it is not wrong for Krysta to get the role because she is actually as the character is described."

They both look white. It's not wrong for either of them to get the role then. You can't demand privileges when it suits you and at the same time deny other races equality. Should she be denied a role too if she looks the same as another actress but the situation was the other way around? Or can we only think this way as a hypocritical 1 way street. Like I said, that is the core of the problem and will never lead to equality.

 

Updated On: 12/10/18 at 07:22 PM

[FactsAreFacts]

Posted: 12/9/18 at 7:41pm

Dave28282 said: "FactsAreFacts said: "All I said is that I didn't think it would generate as much "anger" having a non-Latina, POC play Anita, but that it still would generate quite a bit. That made no statement on anything other than that."

But the statement in itself is a very unhealthy racial separation. The mindset is what's wrong.

Why in the world is it wrong? If someone continually kicks you in the shin, and then does it again, would you not be more angry at that person than someone who did for the first time? Again, while I think you agree that all races are "equal," you seem to think that they have been treated equally for the entire history of the world, and the fact that that is not true should never play into the reality of life today. 

Also, with your bizarre quota system that you've pushed in the past, you seem to dismiss the value that different individuals bring to the roles that they play. Someone's life experiences always impacts how they play a part, but in things you've said before, you have made it seem like it should only be about acting, singing, and dancing (I apologize if I have misinterpreted). 

In my opinion, when solely discussing a show that does not address issues of race, if a director wants to cast a POC in a role traditionally played by a white person, that inherently adds another layer to the story being told, and, for the most part, I would be open to the idea of it (the execution is another topic).

You could, of course, make the same argument in reverse, but – for me personally – I wouldn't be as interested, because the vast majority of stories told today (and in the history of American theatre, TV, and movies) are from the white perspective, and seeing another one isn't as interesting to me. 

I think that there are also valuable artistic conversations to be had about casting people of other races in shows specifically about race, but I don't know that a message board is the place to do that, or, honestly, if doing it in the abstract (with no stated artistic vision) really does a service to topic. 

FactsAreFacts said: "
Just as an example that we are all familiar with, Krysta Rodriguez is a Latina actress who can pass for white/caucasian/European/whatever term you want to use to describe it. But, she is Latina.

If she is up for a role against an actress who also appears to be white/caucasian/European/whatever term you want to use and has zero Latina heritage, AND the role is for a Latina character, it is not wrong for Krysta to get the role because she is actually as the character is described."

They both look white. It's not wrong for either of them to get the role then. You can' (sic) demand privileges when it suits you and at the same time deny other races equality. Should she be denied a role too if she looks the same as another actress but the situation was the other way around? Or can we only think this way as a hypocritical 1 way street. Like I said, that is the core of the problem and will never lead to equality."

You seem to think that the road to equality is if everyone is treated the exact same from this point forward. And, sure, in a perfect world, that would be awesome, but that disregards and disrespects the centuries (and more) of advantages and disadvantages that certain people (races, genders, sexual orientations, socioeconomic statures, etc.) have had.

If you truly want the equality that you claim to be so concerned about, in my humble opinion, I think that you would be better served to address the systemic disadvantages that certain people have than to complain about white people not being cast as characters of color. 

[Dave28282]

Posted: 12/10/18 at 9:01pm

FactsAreFacts said: "I think you agree that all races are "equal," you seem to think that they have been treated equally for the entire history of the world, and the fact that that is not true should never play into the reality of life today."

Yes, I think all races are equal and No, I don't think they have been treated equally for the entire history of the world. But what definitely should not happen in life today is: Demanding that a race of choice must play roles of every race and accent, and at the same time forbid other races to do so, demanding privileges over others because of race and compromising others rights of equality, people "victimizing themselves" when they see opportunity in combination with deciding to take rights away from other races as it suits them. Like you said, that has happened in the past and has no place in current society. No matter how much you feel you deserve that behavior.

 

FactsAreFacts said: "You seem to think that the road to equality is if everyone is treated the exact same from this point forward."

Exactly. And anything else you say about this is not relevant.

(and with "everyone" I mean "every race". Because people can be treated differently based on many things and characteristics, anything but race). It means actually looking at people.

These left wing regressive people who display racism (it's the nicest, most neutral way I could put it), are doing harm, they place one race above another and create and insist on maintaining a huge gap. The behaviour I described above (and earlier in this thread) is a 1 way street that will never be accepted. Especially people who have experienced this, such as minority groups should understand this. Instead, they are doing the exact same thing in return.

 

[Dave28282]

Posted: 12/10/18 at 9:11pm

FactsAreFacts said: "
You seem to think that the road to equality is if everyone is treated the exact same from this point forward. And, sure, in a perfect world, that would be awesome, but that disregards and disrespects the centuries (and more) of advantages and disadvantages that certain people (races, genders, sexual orientations, socioeconomic statures, etc.) have had."

There is a contradiction in what you say. First you say that in a perfect world it would be awesome. Then you say if races are treated equally it disrespects their disadvantages from the past. So is pointing out disadvantages from the past a more perfect world than treating races equally in your opinion or a less perfect world?

And how is bringing that into every new situation helping to see people as equals? I think it works the opposite way. In fact, doing that is having disregard for the people, as you place them below others from the start and don't give them equal chances or equal treatment.