"Just Stop Oil" protestors jumped on stage at Les Miz West End- Page 2

[Seb28]

Posted: 10/6/23 at 2:56am

Zeppie2022 said: "I did not think it was against the rules of this board to post opinions no matter how wrong some people think those opinions are."

Thanks Zeppie, I agree. Unfortunately some people live by the idea that everyone can do what they want, that breaking the law is ok, as long as it suits their opinion, without paying attention to others, and if they don't like another opinion, remove them. That is also the message they are giving off to the oil companies and government. I hope they're happy when they follow that attitude.

Updated On: 10/6/23 at 02:56 AM

[Scarywarhol]

Posted: 10/6/23 at 7:37am

I shudder to think how things would go if the oil industry and government together were comfortable with behaving how they pleased. Do you even hear yourself? Have you been made aware of any world events of the past century? 

Updated On: 10/6/23 at 07:37 AM

[Jumpin_J]

Posted: 10/6/23 at 8:29am

Trying desperately to steer the conversation back to the matter at hand, there are ways to protest and make positive movement to get people on your side. Civil disobedience has always been essential in change. That being said, there's better ways than others. I do not believe this group ever think their protests through. By stopping a show, did they change anyone's minds? I'd say certainly not. Not only did they fail to do that, they were endangering lives of the company and the audience who did not agree to participate. They sowed anger, not positive change. That's how they'll be remembered. Instead of being people who's trying to wake people up to an environmental emergency, they'll be seen as anarchists. You will never get people on your side as long as people perceive you as the enemy. 

[Scarywarhol]

Posted: 10/6/23 at 8:43am

You are talking about it. That is the goal. Exxon has known for at least half a century what they are doing and has led the most powerful disinformation campaign in history. Millions of human beings dead in our oil wars. Nearly all mobility options in America beyond personal cars have been systematically destroyed for benefit of the auto industry and oil companies, often with their direct involvement. The planet is boiling. 

But those young people are impolite!

 

[Seb28]

Posted: 10/6/23 at 3:01pm

Scarywarhol said: "I shudder to think how things would go if the oil industry and government together were comfortable with behaving how they pleased.Do you even hear yourself? Have you been made aware of any world events of the past century?"

Definitely. That's why copying the behaviour that they say they are protesting against is so misplaced. 

[Seb28]

Posted: 10/6/23 at 3:05pm

Scarywarhol said: "But those young people are impolite!"

They are breaking the law, they commit crimes. 

They also need to be protected against themselves. Stopping right away would ruin their future.

 

[Call_me_jorge]

Posted: 10/6/23 at 4:11pm

Stop liking your own replies. You’re looking desperate

[Seb28]

Posted: 10/6/23 at 5:37pm

Stop insulting and name-calling on a personal level, looks weak and insecure. People who are certain about their standpoint usually don't need that.

Updated On: 10/6/23 at 05:37 PM

[Call_me_jorge]

Posted: 10/7/23 at 8:38am

You are a bad faith actor and I will call you out on your bull****e, now shut your conspiracy/climate change lies 

PART 1:

Seb28 said: "I think these people have no idea what they are doing. Without oil they could never afford a phone or blue hair dye or anything at all any longer.” 

While it's true that oil and its byproducts have shaped modern consumerism, suggesting that young people are ungrateful or unaware is an overgeneralization. Gen Z, born between the mid-1990s and early 2010s, contributes significantly to the economy. In the U.S. alone, Gen Z holds an estimated $143 billion in spending power as of 2020, and this number is only growing as they age and enter the workforce.

“The people who really make changes are studying and working very hard to develop alternatives.”

The assertion that only those working directly in alternative energy fields make a difference is narrow. Activism, raising awareness, and driving consumer choices towards sustainable products are also vital. Many among Gen Z are part of the drive towards renewable energy, with the renewable energy sector growing 10.3% globally in 2020, contributing to nearly 12% of the world's energy consumption.

“My theory is that there is a generation "Gen Z", who desperately wants to feel special, feel like the they are the promised oracle, which comes from the way they were raised. Were told they were mommy and daddy's special prince or princess and they were going to make all the difference in the world. Then they hit puberty and needed to get a job and found out that they are nothing. That a boss tells hem what they did wrong on their job (normal course of events), and therefore you see more teenagers than ever with a burnout after 2 weeks working in a side job.”

It's crucial not to confuse awareness of mental health with a lack of work ethic. While it's true that younger generations are more vocal about issues like workplace burnout, it doesn't necessarily mean they are lazier or less resilient. In fact, studies suggest Gen Z is on track to be the best-educated generation yet, with the percentage of high school dropouts decreasing and college enrollment rates increasing.

“Now they found a way to riot, feel like the promised oracle, AND not having to do anything for it, seems like the only way to go.

The problem is that it will not help, not gain any respect, only lead to more damage to nature (blocking roads),”

While some protests can result in short-term disruptions, they often aim to spotlight longer-term issues and drive systemic change. Furthermore, asserting that protests like blocking roads are the leading cause of environmental damage overlooks larger contributors like industrial pollution and deforestation.

“and without alternatives the costs will be so high that it will be impossible for them to have or raise any kids at all. But of course anyone concerned with the climate will not have kids anyway.”

The notion that those concerned with climate change shouldn't have children is a personal choice, not a universally accepted solution. Population growth, while a challenge, can be managed through policies promoting education, women's rights, and access to birth control. Blaming a generation for a population boom that began long before their existence is misplaced.

“The world population has gone from 1 to 8 bilion in 200 years.”

It's essential to remember that Gen Z, like any other generation, is diverse. Painting an entire generation with a broad brush can lead to misleading generalizations. Every generation has its activists, innovators, hard workers, and those that follow alternative paths. Judging an entire cohort by the actions of a few is an oversimplification.

To conclude, while oil and its byproducts have undoubtedly shaped modern life, Gen Z is actively engaging in creating a sustainable future. Instead of minimizing their efforts, it might be more productive to support and collaborate with them for a better tomorrow.

[Call_me_jorge]

Posted: 10/7/23 at 8:42am

PART 2: 

Seb28 said: "Scarywarhol, you do realize that the temperature on earth since the beginning (after stabilization) until right before mankind has raised by 49%.”

While Earth's temperature has fluctuated throughout its history, comparing ancient conditions to present-day ones can be misleading. The current rate of temperature increase is unprecedented in the context of the past 2000 years. The last five years have been the warmest five-year period on record, with global temperatures roughly 1.2°C above pre-industrial levels.

“There are 10 different natural factors that cause this and this will continue. Mankind will disappear eventually. Periods like the ice age, and the "little ice age" which only ended in 1850,”

The role of human-caused emissions in today's climate change is well-established. The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) states that it's "extremely likely" that more than half of the observed increase in global average surface temperature from 1951-2010 was caused by human influence.

“therefore a little increase in warmth was predicted since then, are merely "bleeps", that are not of a big importance on the general increase. For example, in the time of the Romans, it was about 3 degrees warmer than now.”

The assertion that temperatures during Roman times were 3 degrees warmer than now is not universally accepted. This regional warming, experienced mainly in the North Atlantic, is different from the global phenomenon we're witnessing now. Furthermore, regional warm periods do not invalidate current global trends.

“It is true that overpopulation speeds up this increase. Not having children is the only measure that contributes something significant.” 

While overpopulation contributes to resource strain and increased emissions, focusing solely on population control overlooks other impactful solutions. Transitioning to renewable energy, preserving forests, and sustainable agriculture are just as significant, if not more so.

“Less significant, but still helpful is the ongoing science and people working very hard to find alternatives so that we can (hopefully in the future) actually stay alive without oil. And being able to feed our families. Which is not the case yet. Alternatives are in development. People work night and day for that.”

Agreed, research and development of alternative energies are vital. As of 2020, renewables made up 29% of global electricity generation, reflecting ongoing efforts in this direction.

“The only convenient thing I see is people keep getting babies and plant their butt on a highway or some other forbidden place and let those things feed their ego and identity,”

While any form of protest should be peaceful and respectful, the essence of many climate protests is to raise awareness and prompt action. Some may not approach advocacy effectively, but it's important to not dismiss the broader movement based on the actions of a few.

“leaving behind a complete mess of plastic waste, while all buying Iphones and tomato soup to throw at ancient paintings and blue hair dye, while it is still affordable, while actually being the problem themselves.”

While it's true that excessive consumerism can contribute to environmental degradation, generalizing protesters as hypocrites may not be fair. Moreover, many among the younger generation are pushing for sustainable consumer choices, promoting recycling, and reducing waste.

“Someone like my brother, who is at university, who was studying very hard at the night of the attack on the theatre, and decides not to have children, and definitely will not ruin other people's properties is someone who deserves respect.”

The assertion that only individuals like your brother, who decide not to have children, deserve respect might be too narrow a view. Respect should be given to those making efforts in various ways, be it through research, sustainable living, or policy-making.

In conclusion, while Earth's climate has indeed varied over the millennia, the current rate of change and the role of human activity are distinct. Addressing these challenges requires a combination of policy, technological innovation, and individual responsibility. Oversimplifying the issue or pointing fingers might not be the most productive approach.

Updated On: 10/7/23 at 08:42 AM

[Alex Kulak2]

Posted: 10/7/23 at 10:17am

PipingHotPiccolo said: "im increasingly convinced these people-- disrupting shows, throwing soup at works of art, blocking highways-- are being funded by Exxon Mobil or something. Its so thoroughly ignorant and counterproductive."

The soup thing never really added up for me. You're telling me the security guards of this museum with billions of dollars of irreplaceable works of art isn't checking people's bags?

[Scarywarhol]

Posted: 10/7/23 at 10:28am

Sure, but they're like "bag checks" at Broadway theaters or New York libraries--completely rote and pointless, they just care that you unzipped the top of the bag. 

[Call_me_jorge]

Posted: 10/7/23 at 11:19am

Can’t say I’ve ever been to the Van Gogh museum, but unless it’s the Louvre I can’t imagine security is that heightened. I haven’t been the Chicago Art Institute since early 2022, but I don’t seem to recall any bag checks there and they have some pretty noteworthy pieces.

Updated On: 10/7/23 at 11:19 AM

[binau]

Posted: 10/7/23 at 12:10pm

"While it's true that excessive consumerism can contribute to environmental degradation, generalizing protesters as hypocrites may not be fair"

But we are all hypocrites necessarily because it is very difficult for us to stop our carbon footprint - we can talk about evil oil companies and I'm sure they have done a lot of wrong to continue demand for their product, but ultimately, these oil companies are rich and powerful not JUST because there is some conspiracy to maintain this in my opinion but because what they are selling is one of the most valuable resources on earth given the value of what it provides and at what cost - and we need it to live, travel, survive  etc. Again, I'm sure a lot of wrongs have happened so I don't want to dismiss them, but ultimately there are practical/technological challenges around cost, efficiency of energy etc. that make alternatives difficult. If there was an easy solution, we'd have one. I am sick of hearing hypocrites who are looking for a dopamine rush of feeling like they are doing something good wasting my time and theirs talk about this issue without any practical reason for doing so. This protest being yet another stupid example. 

The best thing people can do in my opinion is vote governments who have climate-friendly policies, such as the UK Labour Party. Or study/research Science and join an organisation that will help us move to alternative energy sources (many of the big oil companies are actually a great place to do this!).

One of the people who fund this protest group really said they are going to stop funding it as it's 'pointless', might actually be counterproductive and helping the conservative narrative, and is instead re-directing his money into a cause to get people to vote Labour. I couldn't agree more. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67031062

Just because people WANT to help the world does not mean they actually can or are - I think in reality we are doing this so it doesn't matter but we should be giving time, energy, investment and focus in people that can truly help us. Not people looking for social media attention so they can feel good about themselves. 

[Call_me_jorge]

Posted: 10/7/23 at 12:34pm

It's true that individuals alone can't solve the climate crisis; systemic change is crucial. However, dismissing individual efforts or labeling them as hypocritical oversimplifies the issue. Many people strive to reduce their carbon footprints while also pushing for broader systemic changes.

Protests, even if they sometimes seem counterproductive, have historically played pivotal roles in catalyzing change. For example, the 1960s civil rights movements or the anti-apartheid protests in South Africa. Protests bring attention, shape public discourse, and force those in power to respond.

While oil companies do sell a product we've become reliant on, it's also worth noting that they've invested heavily in disinformation campaigns to discredit climate science and delay policy action. A 2019 study found that the largest five stock-market-listed oil and gas companies spent nearly $200m lobbying to block, control, or delay climate-motivated policies.

It's a misconception that there aren't cost-effective, efficient alternatives to fossil fuels. For instance, the cost of solar energy has fallen by 89% in the last decade, making it cheaper than coal in many parts of the world. According to the International Renewable Energy Agency (IRENA), renewable power is consistently cheaper than any new electricity capacity based on fossil fuels.

When people choose to adopt more sustainable lifestyles, it creates a ripple effect. Market demands shift, nudging companies to produce more sustainable products, and governments to enact environmentally-friendly policies.

Different people contribute in different ways. While some may focus on voting for climate-friendly parties or engaging in scientific research, others raise awareness, lobby for change, or support grassroots movements. All these approaches are vital.

While voting for parties with strong environmental agendas is crucial, relying solely on political parties might be risky, given that political dynamics change. Continuous public pressure ensures that environmental concerns remain a top priority.

Labeling protestors as mere attention-seekers is a reductionist perspective. Many are genuinely concerned about the environment and believe in the power of collective action. Their passion is a testament to the urgency of the issue.

In conclusion, while it's essential to approach the issue of climate change with nuance and understand the role of systemic factors, individual actions and protests have an undeniable impact. Collaboration across various sectors and recognizing the value of diverse efforts can bring us closer to a sustainable future.

[Seb28]

Posted: 10/7/23 at 3:47pm

Call_me_jorge, thank you for your elaborate reply and the time you took to write it. Finally some nuance and content-related replies in the sea of people who don't understand the situation at all. Good to read that you are not one of those. In fact, we agree on many points. Not everything is fair and the solutions are not simple. What I would like to add is that it is not about me saying that Gen Z is ungrateful or how much they contribute to the economy, but that they are biting the hand that keeps them alive and they are oversimplifying the issue this way. Which is not nuanced enough. And disrespectful to innocent people by attacking theatres or ancient paintings. 

"Addressing these challenges requires a combination of policy, technological innovation, and individual responsibility. Oversimplifying the issue or pointing fingers might not be the most productive approach." Exactly. So these attacks and finger pointing to the companies and government needs to stop. I address the finger pointers.

Binau, thanks for your reply too, I agree and it is spot-on.

Updated On: 10/7/23 at 03:47 PM

[binau]

Posted: 10/8/23 at 8:14am

Call_me_jorge I think your points are all reasonable in a kind of utopia intellectual ideal world but I don't think in practice there is anything positive happening here as a consequence of this action. For example, if we turn the argument away from systemic/government change to individual change, realistically how many people if any do you think honestly were sitting in the audience or reading about this, saw these protests and are likely to change anything about their individual behaviour? In fact, even the message is unclear what exactly individuals can do ("Just Stop Oil"? It's hard for me to see a reasonable causal mechanism for a valuable outcome (it doesn't educate, it doesn't inform, it interrupts, it's not raising awareness because I doubt anyone has heard it for the first time). 

I think what has most likely actually happened in this case is it's just annoyed people lol. If we give these people the benefit of the doubt - they are passionate, concerned, have good intentions - it still doesn't mean they actually have done anything of value or actually helped anything. In fact, as a donor of this very group points out they might just be making it worse. 

Updated On: 10/8/23 at 08:14 AM

[Fetus]

Posted: 10/8/23 at 9:57am

Seb28 said: "Stop insulting and name-calling on a personal level, looks weak and insecure. People who are certain about their standpoint usually don't need that."

Nah, you are a little weasel and you deserve to hear it.

[Seb28]

Posted: 10/8/23 at 11:50am

Fetus, maybe it's nicer to take part in the discussion than to lower yourself to a childish personal attack and name calling. If you would have actually read the whole discussion you would have found out that we are actually already 10 steps ahead of that. And that very interesting things have been said. If that's too ambitious for you and you rather choose to stay silent that's ok too. But what you chose to do now, lowering yourself to personal attack, raising your middle finger to the forum moderators and rules is unnecessary. Have a wonderful sunday.

Updated On: 10/8/23 at 11:50 AM

[Seb28]

Posted: 10/8/23 at 12:04pm

binau said: "it doesn't educate, it doesn't inform, it interrupts, it's not raising awareness because I doubt anyone has heard it for the first time.

I think what has most likely actually happened in this case is it's just annoyed people lol. If we give these people the benefit of the doubt - they are passionate, concerned, have good intentions - it still doesn't mean they actually have done anything of value or actually helped anything. In fact, as a donor of this very group points out they might just be making it worse."

This is very true. Also, they say that they want it to stop "right now". Which would basically ruin their whole life and future. Because the consequences would be devastating and it is simply not possible. So what they think they want is not what they actually want. There is a form of confusion going on within them. So aside from the fact that they are making it worse, it indeed doesn't educate, it doesn't inform, it interrupts, it's not raising awareness, it is also completely useless and impossible. The idea that they think they are passionate or have good intentions or want to be the promised oracle has other causes, which we addressed before. The only 4 things that their behaviour creates are damage to innocent people, aversion, a false sense of identity and a criminal record.

 

Updated On: 10/8/23 at 12:04 PM