Les Mis vs. Sweeney- Page 4

[Thenardier]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 2:30pm

Yea, sanda.. Empty Chairs is great...esp. the staging.


Ok, this song isn't a great one but "Dog eats Dog"

I mean, talk about the human condition in one song....

[StickToPriest]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 2:33pm

Well.
'Empty Chairs' has a very nice melody to it.
I find the lyrics contrived and emotionally shallow/manipulative.

[sanda]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 2:33pm

And I don't think Les Miz theme is too repeative. The repeat theme reflex the charactor intentedly. If you don't like repeating, that is fine. I don't think it is a problem though.

[Jazzysuite82]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 2:33pm

well Thenardier I didn't want to bring this up but Sondheim's hardly finished. He has done work after work after work that is pretty brilliant after Sweeney. What came after Les miz? Miss Saigon is good but didn't match Les Miz and well matin Guerre...I won't comment upon. Then what...? Let's not personally attack composers.

Sandra, I don' think age has anything to do with it. After all Sondheim is 75 this year. He's he's still working on these dark tragic themes. Passion for example. I think he's had plenty of tragic experiences. He's in freakin show business.

[sanda]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 2:34pm

Priest.
That is because you DID not experience it in REAL LIFE.
It is always easy to judge something you didn't experience.
Updated On: 4/3/05 at 02:34 PM

[sanda]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 2:35pm

my "age"is referring to the audience, not creators.

[StickToPriest]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 2:37pm

"That is because you DID not experience it in REAL LIFE."

What??
And you think I've experienced having my daughter deported and murdering people and making people into pies??

Sorry. Your response makes no sense and I don't get your point.

[Thenardier]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 2:37pm

Jazzy, I was saying that Sondheim's working is losing its touch. And yeah, Schondberg's major it was Les Mis...so what? Sondheim is more related to his work than other composers...


Sanda -

Yeah...

I love the repeat in Valjean Soliliquy and Javert's Suicide...

As for Sondheim's lines:

"To seek revenge may lead to hell/But Everyone does it though seldom as well"

Please explain the genious of those lines?

[sanda]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 2:37pm

I hate "Dog eats dog". It is the only song I cannot stand in Les Miz.

[GovernorSlaton]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 2:39pm

Forgive me if I'm incorrect, but shouldn't experiencing something or having been through a situation that is similar to a character in a show help you to identify with the characters more? Finding something a part of you in a character can make you have a higher opinion of a piece of art. Isn't that why we think certain shows are good/great? I don't know, maybe it's my age, but I find that some of my favorite shows contain elements of myself or people I know (the main reason I love Spelling Bee so much).

Although the flip side of that is that identifying with characters may make us blind to a show's faults. Updated On: 4/3/05 at 02:39 PM

[sanda]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 2:40pm

what I refer to is your judgement about the lyrics of ECAET.

You think it is manipulative because you did not experience the feeling in real life.

I said this because I KNOW what it is like in real life. That thing in Les Miz happened in my life. I saw it in my own eyes.

[Thenardier]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 2:43pm

No, sanda, I wasn't saying the song is great (Turning is my least favorite).

I am saying that I love that song beacuse it is "so" Thenardier.

It is an ugly song but I think it fits the character so well....

[sanda]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 2:43pm

I agree you, Gavernor, that is why all this discussion is a personal thing. There is no end result.
Updated On: 4/3/05 at 02:43 PM

[Jazzysuite82]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 2:44pm

"Jazzy, I was saying that Sondheim's working is losing its touch. And yeah, Schondberg's major it was Les Mis...so what? Sondheim is more related to his work than other composers..."


i'm sorry Thenardier what? I might be missing something here but that doesn't make sense to me. please elaborate

Sandra, are you saying that an elderly audience won't enjoy sweeney?

[Thenardier]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 2:45pm

Obviously Sanda and I won't sway on our decisions, nor will Priest and Jazzy.

Just answer one question. do you like Les Mis? do you like Sweeney?

[Thenardier]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 2:46pm

Wow, work's getting to me and I can't type.

1) I meant Sonheim's work isn't up to par of what it once was.

2) Also, I feel sondheim is more directly related to his work than other composers.

[Jazzysuite82]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 2:47pm

i didn't think that was the point. I'm enjoying a nice debate. It's a good thing.

Yes that's what i mean. WHat do you mean more related to his work? You say Sondheim isn't up to par (which I don't think is ture) but Then you just brush off the fact that the same holds true for the creators of Les Miz, even more so. If you want to make the claim fine, but take it both ways. Updated On: 4/3/05 at 02:47 PM

[GovernorSlaton]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 2:48pm

I disagree that his work isn't up to par. In the last 15 years, he's given us Assassins, Passion, Bounce, and The Frogs. Not all of those are good shows, but I feel all have great scores.

[Thenardier]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 2:50pm

Jazzy, what I (?) meant where?


Gov - maybe good scores, but not his better shows...

Have you ever read the poem "An Athlete Dies Young?"

Updated On: 4/3/05 at 02:50 PM

[Jazzysuite82]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 2:52pm

Sondheim being more related to his works than other composers.


and Sondheim only has control over his scores. For a composer/lyricist his scores are his shows. He can hardly take responsiblity for the book or the over all production.
Updated On: 4/3/05 at 02:52 PM

[GovernorSlaton]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 2:53pm

The "not good shows" comment I made was mostly aimed at Bounce; I think Assassins and Passion are two of his greatest shows.

[Thenardier]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 2:55pm

Oh.

I feel like Sondheim puts more of himself in his music than other composers. Something I give him credit for.

I don't know, it's hard to explain. But I feel like when I talk about a Sondheim show, I end up talking about him. He is the main character of his shows. I think it's the fact that Sondeheim's music is like a novel. The author put his beliefs into the work - into every single word.

Evn if a sondheim show is based on real events or whatever it may be, he still put his ideas and ideals in his music.

I hope that makes sense - I have been writing an essay all day.

[sanda]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 2:57pm

I am not saying that.

Gee, it is complicated to explain my feeling. Let me give you an example.
I remebered a classic music fan once talking about "the best music is the joyful music" , kind like that. I didnot buy it when I first heard about it. I used to love the serious, deep tone at that time. But as I grew up, the more I experienced life, the more I like the joyful music. It is not that joyful music is more complicated or smarter than gloomy one. It is the tone or the color makes the difference.

Yes, life is hard. Theatre should reflect the life. The difference is : should you show the audience the dark, the miserable point only? Or even though life is a mess, you can still give people something to be joyful for? Remind you, not "candy stuff", but something more sublime.

Of course, you can always show life as it is. There are tons of works did it, just like tons of "candy stuff". And there are a lot good work.

But my idea is that the best, the greatest work, should be joyful.
Updated On: 4/3/05 at 02:57 PM

[GovernorSlaton]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 2:58pm

People have been saying that each main character in a Sondheim show is actually Sondheim for years, from Bobby in Company to Franklin in Merrily to even Giorgio in Passion. He claims the only consciously autobiographical song he's written is Opening Doors.

[Jazzysuite82]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 2:58pm

Yes it does. And that's every composer's job and it kind of proves my point about Les Miz if you think Boublil and Shoenberg don't do this.

Sondheim actually got that montre from Oscar Hammerstein, the grandfather of the musical. Oscar always said you have to write what you believe. Then the audience will believe it. I think every good composer struggles to achieve that. If you don't put your own beliefs into a show, why write it?