Les Mis vs. Sweeney

[Thenardier]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 12:40am

Which do you think is better?

And, if you wanna say why, please go ahead...

(Yeah, I dared to go there -)

[edenespinosalover]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 12:41am

Are you serious?! Sweeney is.

[StickToPriest]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 12:41am

Is there really any competition?
I mean, seriously.

[Thenardier]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 12:41am

"Are you serious?"

What do you think?

[FOAnatic]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 12:43am

Sweeney...without a doubt. Score...book...all leaps and bounds better than Les Miz.

[Gothampc]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 12:44am

Sweeney is dark and gruesome. Les Miz has an uplifting ending.

[FinishingTheHat]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 12:45am

Sweeney Todd is probably the most incredible and complex score/book ever written for the broadway stage. As my director likes to say "It's THE BEAST!" You can't compare a musical like Les Mis and Sweeney together. Sweeney is so over the top and Les Mis as far as music goes is at the bottom of the chain.

[chinkie azn jai]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 12:47am

They're both equally amazing.

sweeney is great in context with the show, but it took some time before I fell in love with it. But once you get into it, you find out that it is very creepy, beautiful, and enchanting.

les mis is very likeable from the get-go. The songs are very moving and intense. In my opinion, there is no bad song in Les Miserables.

Updated On: 4/3/05 at 12:47 AM

[BlueWizard]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 12:55am

I'm a big Sondheim fan, but I've never understood the adoration for SWEENEY TODD. Certainly it's a grand work, musically, but I don't see why it's considered Sondheim's masterpiece. Isn't SUNDAY IN THE PARK better?

[Jazzysuite82]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 1:08am

I think you have to know scores. You have to look at both Sunday and Sweeney and you'll know why Sweeney's his masterpeice. Remember sondheim's only reponsible for music and lyrics. That's what's being judged. I mean Sweeney is soooo huge firstly it's his biggest musical work I think as far as musical scale (although Follies might rival it). The themes he uses and the way he bends them and turns them and gives you littel clues as to what will happen next is amazing. It is atmospheric as well as cohesive. His use of leitmotif and character discription are nothing short of amazing. Sunday was such a different show and that wasn't as necessary. Sweeney also has music aallll through out which holds the tension VERY well. It's epic, exciting and scary as hell and I haven't even mentioned the lyrics yet.

I mean I don't honestly see how you could try to compare Sweeney and Les Miz. I don't understand the comment about the happy ending either. I mean just musically this Sweeney is leagues better. Then there's the book (which Les Miz has very little of) and the performances ( I'll take Angela Lansbury and Len Cariou or George Hearn over Judy Kuhn and Colm any day).

[BlueWizard]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 1:14am

I really should learn something about music and scoring. I confess, I know a witty or well-crafted lyric when I hear one, but what makes a good theatrical score is beyond me. I'm still puzzled by CAROLINE OR CHANGE's score (though I'm drilling it into my brain through repetitious listening).

[Thenardier]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 1:16am

Jazzy, don't confuse book with words that are spoken.

Les Mis has a much more intricate book than Sweeney - it's juts all sung and may be harder to follow.

To me, Les Mis is, obviously, better. I mean, Sweeney has a great score. However, Les Mis' score is so much more complex than you think. Behind each note in Les mis, there is a whole other song from a whole other show that relates directly to what is happening when that note is played.

As far as stories go, I think Les Mis' is much better. Neither are original works made up by their respective composers.

While the end of Sweeney Todd causes this huge rush of "Poor Sweeney..." I think that that emotion is heightened in Les Mis.

As for the happy ending - I think it is that even though everyone is dead, everything kind of worked out...

[Thenardier]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 1:20am

Maybe it's just me, and I will probably be bashed for this...

I feel that Sondeihm takes work to listen to. I feel like I have to concentrate because there is this air for supremecy. But it isn't like being kept on your toes.

I honestly don't think he is all he's cracked up to be. Grant it, he wrote some great music and some great shows. But so did other composers.

That said, I still think he writes great stuff. It just feels like work when I want to listen to one of his recordings.

Sweeney, isn't one of them - which is why I posed this question.

And like chinkie said - there isn't a bad song in Les Mis. YEs, I skip some songs on the Cd because I can't concentrate while listening to The First Attack. Sweeney has songs that I skip because I can't stand it.

[Jazzysuite82]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 1:29am

My point was, Since when did a happy ending make a musical good. I'm well aware of what Les Miz's book is. It really isn't that substantial in my opinion. I'm also a little confused about the note from another song from another show and the layers involved in Les miz. I'm not sure what you mean there. I mean I honestly don't think the book or score is as nearly thought out and intricate as Sweeney. I've listened to both. I've played through both. You also say there isn't a bad song in Les Miz. I guess it also depends on what you mean by Bad song. Are you talking composition, structure,prose or just songs that people generally like. They are very different standards of judging. I'm fraknly glad that Sondheim makes people think. That's a good thing. There's enough out there to merely entertain, but Sondheim makes you listen, think and you get entertained if you listen. I think being an audience memeber shouldn't be like TV. One should be actively involved with the production, which means thinking, feeling, and reacting.

[munkustrap178]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 1:33am

SWEENEY, without a doubt.

[Thenardier]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 1:41am

I didn't mean that Sondheim made you think - I meant, I couldn't just listen to it.

It's late so I will try to explain my Les Mis comment.

I read a lot about Les Mis the show (not to mention the book). I don't remember the specifics, but the score of Les Mis has an underlying layer that is the same as other shows that came before Les mis.

For example, one song I can think of off the top of my head is In My Life. I don't remember the other song, but IML has a very subtle quality that is seen in other songs that has a similar theme as IML.

(sorry, this would be easier if I could remember the other songs...)

Now, this isn't stealing in the sense of Wildhorn or Webber...etc.

It is basically a musical allusion, if anything.

The thing that I love about Les Mis is you can listen to it to enjoy or to learn. For me, I can't listen to a Sondheim song to enjoy until I have already "learned." and by then, I have lost interest. (Sweeney being an exception)

As far as the book goes, it follows the story Victor Hugo wrote. There aren't any real plot holes in Les Mis. There really aren't that many untied ends (mainly because everyone dies).

Obviously liking shows and songs is a matter of personal taste (otherwise we wouldn't have this conversation...). I am speaking from myself and from the general public.

Not that this means anything, and perhaps this will hurt my point more than help it (in some ways), but there is a reason Les Mis has become so popular.

Yes, many shows are translated and open in other countries. How many shows can boast around 15 recordings....?

[EclipstHeart]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 1:44am

everyone is of course entitled to his/her opinion, but id have to agree that sweeney is far superior.
teh music in les miz is great, but, it doesnt always bear relevance to the show itself. the lyrics or book may be great, but i sometimes get the impression that teh music itself is decoration.
altho i dont think this wa steh case in the original french concept recording, which i listen to more. the music wa sin many parts very different, and mor effective.
however, while the music in sweeney may not stand alone well, as individual objects, collectively it contributes to the show, is informed by the show, and is more effective than les miz's score.
when that is factored in, sweeney becomes an obviously masterful work, and for taht reason is the better musical.


sry 'bout typos!

[Thenardier]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 1:46am

For everyone's info, I am not only referring to the scores...even though that plays a large part and probably doesn't change anyone's opinions.

[paradox_error]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 7:08am

Sweeney, of course.

One of the greatest scores in Musical Theatre history, matched with a fantastic book and, in the case of the OBC, top-notch performances.

Les Mis is not all it is cracked up to be. I like it, but it is just one of the better examples of the British Poperetta Spectacles that I am not a big fan of.

And with Les Mis, there is really nothing to direct. The people stand and sing, the set moves, they sing some more and the set moves again...Not very creative.

[stylinbohemian]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 8:20am

I do enjoy Sweeney an awful lot but i gotta say Les Mis i love the score

[phantom_tenor]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 8:47am

Sweeny Todd is like a new friend you need to spend a bit of time around to get used to, and appreciate.
Les Miserables is like an old friend you can have fun with.

Sweeny Todd has such a fantastically alien score. It doesn't sound like anything else. Les Mis feels like you've heard it all before, and i mean that in a good way. The tunes seem familiar, even if it's the first time you've heard them.

I don't think you can declare one show "better" than another. Each has its merits, and downfalls.

Les Mis is like beer. Good beer, but just beer.
Sweeny is like a fine wine

But they both get me drunk the same.

I appologise for the crappy similies :P

[sanda]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 9:16am

is it necessary to campare them? I don't see the point.

Anyway, Les Miz is the best. Sweeney is a wonderful show, but I feel it is too dark and depressing.

My point is the best works, no matter music, novel or theatre, should not be too dark and depressing. It should be noble and hopeful.
Updated On: 4/3/05 at 09:16 AM

[paradox_error]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 9:30am

"My point is the best works, no matter music, novel or theatre, should not be too dark and depressing. It should be noble and hopeful."

ummmm...

[magruder]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 9:46am

I agree with all those who said Sweeney. The English lyrics for Les Miz are quite often clunky, graceless or downright embarrassing. Plus, the authors use many of the same melodies from Act One again in Act Two for no discernible dramatic purpose that I've ever been able to figure out. The Les Miz score worked fine in the theatre, but after that, I was done with it. The scope and scale and accomplishment of Sweeney Todd as a score and a show is so far greater than all of Les Miz, it's just folly to compare the two.

[paradox_error]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 9:48am

Thanks Magruder!