Les Mis vs. Sweeney- Page 5

[frontrowcentre2]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 2:59pm

Thenardier, as I read this thread it becoems clear that you posed the question hoping everyone would choose LES MIZ and when they didn'y you became angry and defensive. There's no need for that. You asked. We all replied. But turning it into a series of attacks on Sondheim is pointless. If you only want to hear from people who agree with you all you will end up with is a list of "me too" messages and god knows we don't want that!

[Thenardier]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 3:00pm

Really, Gov?

I never read that (because I never read about Sondheim...)


When I see a show, I feel that trying to "learn" is difficult - why? Because actors get in the way. SOmetimes they help. Somethimes they hurt. If you don't like an actor, or the actor does a bad job, it ruins the show.

[magruder]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 3:01pm

Sanda earlier described Sweeney Todd as a musical about hate...which is not what it's about. It's about obsession and loss. Everyone in Sweeney is obsessed with someone or something, which leads their emotions to boil over into revenge or insane acts, ending in tragedy. In the original production, Harold Prince coupled that aspect of the material with the set's conceptual depiction of the Industrial Revolution dwarfing and engulfing the common man, and leading to nihilistic behavior. It was a framing device, but the material is so strong, it works just as well boiled down to its very essence - the obsessions that drive these characters.

I admired Les Miz's sweep and scale in production, as well as its attempt to take on a monumental book in a mere three hours, 15 minutes. I always tended to lose interest in it after Fantine passes away, however, finding Cosette, Marius and the students to be much less compelling. And as I mentioned earlier in this thread, the recycling of much of the Act One music in Act Two, with characters sharing themes for no reason whatsoever drove me berserk. Sondheim's use of leitmotif in the Sweeney score (such as the minuet that underscores all of the Beggar Woman's material, or when Sweeney and Mrs. Lovett's music clashes violently in the Finale) is vastly more theatrical and sophisticated. Sweeney is the grander, more enduring achievement and the better piece of writing, no question in my mind.

[Thenardier]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 3:03pm

Frontrow, actually, I have been on bww long enough to know that most people would say Sondhiem.

I was only saying what I didn't like about Sondheim. I never said "I hate Sondheim because he is old." That's personally attacking.

We were discussing these two shows, that many people on BWW like (I thought).

[sanda]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 3:04pm

Jazz,

Sorry, I did not get your point. I did not see how I prove your correctness.

I use the music as an example,to explain my idea about theatre work. It is the theme makes the difference. I am not comparing the music of Sondheim and Schhonberg.

Updated On: 4/3/05 at 03:04 PM

[GovernorSlaton]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 3:07pm

This discussion seems to really be about Joyful and Uplifting vs. Not Uplifting and Dark.

Sweeney has been called depressing or dreary (Not just on this thread). The only shows I find depressing are shows that don't succeed in meeting what they set out to do.

[Thenardier]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 3:08pm

Well, Gov -

When Les Mis opened it was bashed for being too dark...

Updated On: 4/3/05 at 03:08 PM

[sanda]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 3:21pm

magruder,

I don't get this. Why my opinion about Sweeney as Hate is so wrong and your Obsession is so right? Is there such a big difference?

[magruder]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 3:35pm

Yes. Calling Sweeney Todd a musical about "hate" makes it sound simplistic and facile. The obsessions of the main characters in Sweeney Todd - for all of its Victorian era melodrama - are far more complex and deeply rooted than that. Sweeney, for example, is not driven to kill Judge Turpin merely because he "hates" him, but because he's driven mad for revenge after the Judge has destroyed his life, with Sweeney obsessing over his act of vengeance for 15 years. That's much more powerful than a mere act of hatred. Or consider Mrs Lovett, who keeps the barber's costly silver razors because of her obsessive love for him, and though merely dotty when we first meet her, is willing to go to extreme lengths of madness to be with a man she loves.

[sanda]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 3:38pm

OK, I get it.
The word "Hate" sounds simplic and "obsession" sounds complicated.

What a smart idea! If you want to praise something, just praise it BIG !
Updated On: 4/3/05 at 03:38 PM

[EponineThenardier]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 3:39pm

Take a wild guess. Without a doubt Les Miserables...

Sweeney is on my top ten, but still Les Miz will always be number 1!

[magruder]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 3:49pm

It has nothing to do with how the words sound. It's the complexity of the emotions they convey. Hate is a simple, very basic emotion. You toss it around every day. "I hate my job," "I hate that person," "I hate celery in tuna salad." But how many things can you say you truly obsess over, that drive and motivate your life, that get deep under your skin? There's a big difference.

[Johnnytoc]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 3:50pm

Sweeney Todd

It's just a bit better for me, but definitely better.

[sanda]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 3:54pm

Well, what does Romeo& Juliet deal with? "Hate "or " Obsession"?

[Thenardier]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 3:55pm

Love

[magruder]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 3:57pm

In a nutshell, it's blind hated that causes the Capulet and Montague families to war with each other, and obsessive love between Romeo and Juliet that leads to their tragedy.

[bially082]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 4:09pm

Another vote for Sweeney. No composer can even hope of ever equaling the greatness that is Sweeney Todd.

Updated On: 4/3/05 at 04:09 PM

[munkustrap178]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 4:24pm

Thenadier, I have a feeling you're saying a lot of sh*t on here without actually knowing anything. You say things like "Sondheim's last few show's weren't up to par" or something. I guarantee you that you did not see THE FROGS, BOUNCE, PASSION, or ASSASSINS, and probably haven't even heard them. Have you even seen SWEENEY TODD? I know you don't own the cast recording yet, it's being shipped to you as we speak. You don't even OWN one Sondheim CD, am I correct? How many Sondheim shows do you actually know? You've told me in the past that this answer is probably ZERO. So this is a pointless argument because you know NOTHING about musical complexity, Stephen Sondheim, and especially SWEENEY TODD.

[BlueWizard]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 5:03pm

I find this discussion rather silly. Why bother comparing LES MIS and SWEENEY? Other than their operatic influences, I don't see what they have in common to compare. They weren't even in direct competition for any awards.

Next, let's compare DREAMGIRLS and AVENUE Q, or FALSETTOS with THE ROCKY HORROR SHOW!

Updated On: 4/3/05 at 05:03 PM

[EponineThenardier]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 5:06pm

Also its completely up to matter of taste as well.

Tons of people swear by Sunday in the Park with George. I can barely sit through it. Everyone has their own reasons.

[The Distinctive Baritone]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 5:13pm

I'd say Sweeney Todd is the best musical ever written with Les Mis as a close second.

[redhotinnyc2]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 5:19pm

How can there be any question - Sondheim wins over the composers of Les Miz any day.

[BlueWizard]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 5:32pm

About the recurring melodies in LES MIZ: I believe there is a loose reasoning behind them (we did dissect the reprise of the "On My Own" melody on BWW a few months ago), but admittedly it's not nearly as tight as Sondheim. The reprises are certainly done on purpose, as Edward Behr's book on the making of Les Miz attests -- the creative team spent months working on the "On My Own" theme and were adamant it was used in those precise places of the book. For Boublil/Schonberg, the reprise of certain musical motifs is less intellectual than instinctive, showcasing how one melody can take on different tones in different places. And the purpose of some reprises is obvious -- Valjean and Javert's soliliquys, for example.

Boublil & Schonberg's musical style is better developed in MISS SAIGON, where the score takes on rock & roll, Broadway and Asian influences and reuses them more appropriately.

[La Nouba]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 5:47pm

I can't choose. They are 2 of my 3 top favorite shows (the other being RENT)

[munkustrap178]

Posted: 4/3/05 at 5:53pm

But this isn't even a valid comparison to begin with (like someone said above.) LES MIS looks like amateur drivel compared to SWEENEY. Compare LES MIS with MISS SAIGON or CATS, even, but definitely not SWEENEY. They're nothing alike.