Lyrics you can't decide if you love or hate- Page 2

[Elfuhbuh]

Posted: 9/10/14 at 10:47am

The lyrics to "Braver Than We Are" from Dance of the Vampires leave me conflicted. On the one hand, I think they're simple and sweet, which fits in with the tone of the production as a whole, but on the other hand the entire meaning of the original German version is lost in that translation. (It also doesn't help that that entire scene was the only thing I liked about the Broadway version.)

[mjohnson2]

Posted: 9/10/14 at 11:57am

I will say that MY FAIR LADY is a pretty perfect show in all aspects of it, but I do think that Lerner's music is better than Loewe's lyrics, but the lyrics are still quite a bit better than anything new on Broadway for the past decade. There aren't any bad lyrics in the show, it has great lyrics that are often times amazing, whereas the music is always amazing and often even better than that.

[Elfuhbuh]

Posted: 9/10/14 at 1:15pm

My Fair Lady is genius for Henry Higgins' songs alone.


My favorite lyric of his ever:

"Why is thinking something women never do?
Why is logic never even tried?
Straightening up their hair is all they ever do.
Why don't they straighten up the mess that's inside?"

[Charley Kringas Inc]

Posted: 9/10/14 at 3:41pm

I can't believe I'm being called a "bad guy", like I'm Snidely Whiplash or somebody. After Eight, your post makes you sound like a raving lunatic. There is no cabal of "bad guys" launching attacks on all that is bright and beautiful, there is no lockstep march in the name of decrying everything you find loverly, there is merely the progress of time and shift of taste that occurs inexorably, in any century. Stephen Sondheim is not the leader of a musical-theater Illuminati, and his fans are not behooded cultists. In short, you worry me.

Anywho, before someone opens a vein: while I do think he's a bit of an old-guard lyricist, that was also just the way of the times, and if the only real fault I can find in his Fair Lady lyrics is that they're sorta generic, then that's not much of a fault anyways. In regards to his lyrics being lifted by better music, see also 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, though he did fit the musical-pageant theme pretty well. It's a shame the Bernstein estate is sitting forever on the original production, I'd love to see it given a second chance.

One lyric I really do have a love-hate with is "Rainbow High", from Evita. It's an eerie song (and I like it a lot more than "Rainbow Tour") but besides the fact that it took me forever to figure out what the heck she meant by "rainbow high" (and I'm still not sure), the "Christian Dior me" and "Machiavell me" lines are like, huh? On the one hand they're fun to hear, and I get the intent and the message, but I can't help rolling my eyes a little. At least Patti Lupone really sells them on the OBC.

[Mr. Nowack]

Posted: 9/10/14 at 3:49pm

^^^^^^
Don't forget "Lauren Bacall me!"

[Charley Kringas Inc]

Posted: 9/10/14 at 4:03pm

I mean, I'd probably say the Lauren Bacall and Christian Dior lines are almost believable - it's the Machiavelli line that really throws me. I get the connection, and it's a clever one, but it's the perfect example of a lyric being too clever by a half. All three are so absurd, they make me giggle.

[Someone in a Tree2]

Posted: 9/10/14 at 4:19pm

And speaking of the Lauren Bacall me line, it's always bugged me that Rice doesn't even succeed in actually rhyming that line-- he manages only an identity:

That's what they call me,
So Lauren Bacall me...

How much niftier it would have been had he actually written something like:

"Those bigots appall me,
So Lauren Bacall me"

That little click in the ear of a true rhyme would have landed the lyric so much better.
But that's a criticism I have with lots of early Tim Rice, along with 50% or more of today's reigning lyricists (like Lopez, Parker and Stone). Like Madame Armfelt, I bemoan "Where is craft?"

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 9/10/14 at 9:03pm

"Why is thinking something women never do?
Why is logic never even tried?
Straightening up their hair is all they ever do.
Why don't they straighten up the mess that's inside?"

And Ricky Ricardo could have sung that lyric on I LOVE LUCY!

I think the point of what I paraphrased from Sondheim was that Lerner, despite some well-crafted lyrics, isn't saying much beyond the usual cliches of gender and class.

I agree that Lerner and Loewe made excellent choices in musicalizing MY FAIR LADY; I just don't see any lyrics being sung that can't be reduced to common cliches of the 1950s. Loewe's music is, as always, sublime.

Here's the one Lerner lyric that gives me chills every time:

"In the dark, in the gloom
More than love met its doom.
In the dying and the scream
Came the sundown of a dream."

I don't know that it's terribly original, but it gives me chills even though it comes from what is basically a "filler" choral number in CAMELOT.

But look at that show's monster hit song: what is "If Ever I Would Leave You" but a trip through the calendar?

(ETA Sorry, Charlie. I now see you said much of what I say about MY FAIR LADY on the previous page. My bad.) Updated On: 9/10/14 at 09:03 PM

[Someone in a Tree2]

Posted: 9/10/14 at 9:30pm

Sorry to correct you, Gaveston, but Lerner's "Guenevere" lyric is even better when the couplet goes as he actually wrote it:

"In the dying EMBER'S GLEAM
Came the sundown of a dream."

I think what makes that lyric so satisfying is the weight of the word SUNDOWN that sits so beautifully on the musical phrase and is the most important word in the song.

Updated On: 9/10/14 at 09:30 PM

[After Eight]

Posted: 9/11/14 at 12:58am

"there is merely the progress of time and shift of taste that occurs inexorably, in any century."

Oh yeah, a real shift of taste. My Fair Lady ran 2717 performances and made God knows how much money. Those brilliant "character driven" musicals Follies, Merrily We Roll Along, Sunday in the Park With George and Passion, to which our audiences' taste "inexorably" shifted, all flopped like dead fish on a beach. Not to mention the likes of Parade, Marie Christine, The Wild Party, et al. Yep, audiences' taste sure drifted like a tidal wave to those.


"There is no cabal of "bad guys" launching attacks on all that is bright and beautiful,"

Where have you been for the last 40 years --- locked in your room listening to "character driven" delights like "Every Day a Little Death?" There most certainly has been: in deed, Mr. Kringas Inc, in deed. You need to wake up and smell the chrysanthemum tea: it's poisonous.

As for launching attacks on all that is bright and beautiful, there's really no need to. They've already destroyed everything bright and beautiful. Nevertheless, they still keep the hulking propaganda machine going full force 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. Gotta be vigilant, can't let down one's guard. After all, a flower bud might try to poke its head through the earth they've scorched. Can't allow THAT to happen! Updated On: 9/11/14 at 12:58 AM

[mjohnson2]

Posted: 9/11/14 at 1:42am

Just for the sake of misinformation, SUNDAY IN THE PARK WITH GEORGE did recoup its initial investment on Broadway, but all of those other shows flopped for a reason:
PASSION was terrible. Seriously though, it ranks amongst the worst shows ever written.
FOLLIES was boring and too expensive and cynical for audiences to actually enjoy, and the show is better in theory than in the theatre
MERRILY WE ROLL ALONG was presented on Broadway before the writing was finished, and the version that originally was on Broadway was admittedly terrible, though it has improved drastically since closing
PARADE is dull and uninteresting and had no reason to musicalized
MARIE CHRISTINE had a very clumsy book and a less than great score

THE WILD PARTY was given poor direction, though I still say that it is the only show since the 1970's that flopped not because it was bad but because the audience couldn't handle it, but obviously a show like this one will never be universally liked because of its subject matter and rather chaotic structure. I will always consider it a masterpiece, but I don't expect anybody else to like it.

Updated On: 9/11/14 at 01:42 AM

[dented146]

Posted: 9/11/14 at 2:21am

I see it a little differently. For the record, My Fair Lady is a favorite and I feel Loewe's lyrics are wonderful. I have a hard time understanding how anyone could read Pygmalion and find fault with him. He fleshes out the characters, sometimes using the direct wording from the play. He matures Eliza wonderfully.

Anyone who's ever been in love will tell you that, this is no time for a chat! It's perfect.

It seems to me that it is the definition of a song that has changed along with the type of person writing it, as well as the era and sensibility of the times.

Harberg's line: Words make you think a thought. Music makes you feel a feeling. A song makes you feel a thought. Doesn't the way you construct a musical place limitations on that simple idea?

I love what Sondheim can do with words. Sometimes it's magical. But sometimes, I think, the libretto and the lyrics driving it, places limitations on the music.

Not many go around humming Sondheim. But he certainly can lift a show intellectually.

I love both, but for different reasons. I feel when you compare Hart, Gershwin, Sondheim and all the greats, you are really just comparing style and personal taste.

Updated On: 9/11/14 at 02:21 AM

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 9/11/14 at 3:24am

Please don't apologize, Someone. I appreciate the correction.

I didn't think I had it quite right, but couldn't find the lyric quickly.

You are absolutely right: the correct lyric is MUCH better.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 9/11/14 at 3:38am

Oh, please. Theater people go around humming Sondheim all the time.

What has changed is popular music. If MY FAIR LADY were opening for the first time today, it wouldn't run for 2700+ performances, its cast albums wouldn't spend years on the charts, and nobody would be humming its songs. This is not a criticism of MFL, just a simple acknowledgment that much has changed in popular culture.

Commercial comparisons to Rodgers & Hart and the Gershwins are comparisons of apples to oranges, because they wrote in a period when Broadway music WAS the popular music of the nation (and much of the world).

Sondheim may draw smaller audiences, but he has dominated critical opinion for the past half-century; our best performers, directors and designers wait in line to do his musicals. He has long been the gold standard against which most of us compare our work, the shadow under which most of us toil.

PASSION is "terrible"? Many don't like it, but there's no question it is exactly what Sondheim and Lapine wanted it to be. I think it's astonishing simply because it refuses to pander to its audience.

FOLLIES is "boring"? Now we enter the Twilight Zone. Even if you aren't interested in the main characters, there is enough going on in FOLLIES for FIVE musicals. If you're bored, it's only because you are too lazy to pay attention.

[GlindatheGood22]

Posted: 9/11/14 at 10:22am

There's a line from Little Women that I always hated until someone on this board pointed out to me that it works perfectly. I'm still not convinced but here it is:

Turn around, go back to Concord
Leave New York behind unconquered

[dented146]

Posted: 9/11/14 at 7:18pm

Gaveston, I can't disagree with even one thing you said. And going to see regional musicals and seeing many that fall short of Broadway, it is clear that most young musicians try to emulate him AND HIS STYLE of lyric, music, and libretto.

So then, if he is the gold standard and indeed, he does get critical acclaim, why aren't his musicals more wildly popular?

[mjohnson2]

Posted: 9/11/14 at 7:33pm

Because most of them are bad.

[Charley Kringas Inc]

Posted: 9/11/14 at 8:18pm

Whether you think Sondheim's musicals are bad or not is a question of personal opinion (and, to After Eight, a personal affront), but they're hardly unpopular. They don't run two thousand performances, no, but I don't necessarily agree that that's a demerit (generally speaking, I'm against the idea of the monolithic megamusical that squats onstage for ten years to be ogled by tourists), and they're also frequently revived and re-imagined both in the major venues and in community theaters.

I also question the idea that all life and beauty has been steamrolled out by some kind of Evil People Group Of Bad Nasties Who Might Also Be Nazis Or Something but again, what's beautiful or not is a question of personal opinion. I think Sondheim is more than capable of beauty, as are most modern composers, just as much as any composer or lyricist of the past. Some of Tim Minchin's melodies in Matilda, as prickly a musical as that is, I think are just gorgeous.

[mjohnson2]

Posted: 9/11/14 at 8:32pm

I said most, not all. I have no problem with a sad show, but to me Sondheim shows aren't sad, they're just mean-spirited and don't connect emotionally and I don't need to see that in the theatre. I will say that he writes one or two amazing songs per show, and that MERRILY WE ROLL ALONG is a phenomenal score in all aspects.

[icecreambenjamin]

Posted: 9/11/14 at 8:54pm

Sondheim is the reason I fell in love with musical theatre and this is the same for many of my friends as well.
While I do agree that Passion is horribly miserable, I think that the score is an absolute triumph. I love his sad yet flowing melodies that somehow make me hear sheer beauty.
My favorite lyrics
"Anything you do
let it come from you
And it will be new.
Give us more to see." -Stephen Sondheim (Sunday in the park with george)

Updated On: 9/11/14 at 08:54 PM

[After Eight]

Posted: 9/11/14 at 8:57pm

"what's beautiful or not is a question of personal opinion."

No.

There are those who would have us believe that a toad is more beautiful than Marilyn Monroe, and that a pus-soaked bandage is more beautiful than a rose.

Well.........

No.

You may think that people are not on to the motivations of the petty, mean-spirited, and ill-willed.

Think again.

[icecreambenjamin]

Posted: 9/11/14 at 9:01pm

I think that After Eight has no place to be calling anything "mean-spirited" or "petty."

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 9/11/14 at 9:01pm

Turn around, go back to Concord
Leave New York behind unconquered

Trust your instincts, Glinda!

Not only is the couplet you quoted an attempt at an identity rather than a rhyme (weaker but not a crime), it isn't even an identity.

Unless there's some dialect employed in LITTLE WOMEN with which I am not familiar:

Con-KORD

is not an identity with

Con-KURD.

The lyricist would have done better to avoid a "rhymed" couplet altogether and used "unvanquished" instead of unconquered.

Note: the couplet in question would be perfectly acceptable in folk or rap music, but we usually hold Broadway lyrics to a higher standard.

Updated On: 9/11/14 at 09:01 PM

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 9/11/14 at 9:08pm

So then, if he is the gold standard and indeed, he does get critical acclaim, why aren't his musicals more wildly popular?

Why aren't Verdi and Puccini more wildly popular?

Without getting into an argument as to whether Sondheim belongs in their company, all three wrote/write music that is no longer "in style" and all three require a lot more work from the listener than the latest Miley Cyrus hit.

But even PASSION, which so many Sondheim fans abhor, managed to run for 8 months. Not too shabby for a show that refuses to pander in any way to an audience's desire for pretty scenery and happy delusions. I understand its detractors (my husband refuses to have it played in his presence), but I think it is brilliant!

(ETA and BTW, the Broadway run of PASSION would have been considered a hit in the 1930s, when Rodgers & Hart and the Gershwins were writing shows. Few shows--not even hits--lasted a full year back then.)



Updated On: 9/11/14 at 09:08 PM

[Someone in a Tree2]

Posted: 9/11/14 at 9:15pm

Sometimes in the evening, Gaveston, I feel you and I west-coasters are just posting to each other since everyone on the east coast has already quit the board by now.

Anyhooo-- growing up one town over from Concord Massachusetts, I can attest to the fact that the town in question IS pronounced identically to "conquered", at least within the state itself. What does that make of the rhyme then? An aural repetition, I guess. Like Hammerstein would always do to such beautiful effect:

"One girl for my dream,
One partner in paradise,
This promise of paradise,
This nearly was mine."

You know you and I are crying into the wilderness when it comes to rhymes that are only identities, don't you? We should meet for a drink some time and have a good cry in our beers over the diminution of the craft.