Lyrics you can't decide if you love or hate

[Mr. Nowack]

Posted: 9/7/14 at 6:48pm

I have so many, but these two especially:

From "Very, Very, Very" from ONE TOUCH OF VENUS (by Ogden Nash):

You huddled with your memoirs,
And boy what memoirs them was

And from "Saturday" from LOLITA, MY LOVE (by Alan Jay Lerner):

Nous etes, vous sommes
They are nothing short of gruesome
We can do some
When I have rested up my brain

Does anyone have any others?

[AKarp2013]

Posted: 9/7/14 at 6:52pm

It's a simple little gig,
You help me kill a pig
And then I've got some plans for the blood

Chop! Kill the pig, pig, pig!
Kill 'em! Kill 'em! And make him bleed!
Get the blood, blood, blood, ooo, blood!
Kill the pig, make him bleed!
Get the blood, that's all we need!
Out for blood!


From "CARRIE" - so bad, so god-awful and yet they are hysterical.

[mjohnson2]

Posted: 9/7/14 at 8:10pm

Mame! Mame! Mame! Mame! Mame!

"Mame" from MAME

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 9/7/14 at 8:21pm

Boy, Mr. Nowack, that lyric from LOLITA clearly illustrates Sondheim's judgment on Lerner: "there is no there there"!

[After Eight]

Posted: 9/8/14 at 1:43pm

"Boy, Mr. Nowack, that lyric from LOLITA clearly illustrates Sondheim's judgment on Lerner: "there is no there there"!"

If that's Sondheim's judgment on Lerner, it only illustrates Sondheim's own lack of judgment.

[henrikegerman]

Posted: 9/8/14 at 1:58pm

I'm feeling like the apple on top of William Tell
With this I cannot grapple because, because you're so adorable

-Harburg, If This Isn't Love, FINIAN'S RAINBOW

Does it jubilate or just jar? It jubilates, right? Maybe it jubilates because it jars.

[hannahrae2]

Posted: 9/8/14 at 2:04pm

People stop and stare. They don't bother me,
For there's nowhere else on earth that I would rather be.

-My Fair Lady

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 9/8/14 at 10:18pm

If that's Sondheim's judgment on Lerner, it only illustrates Sondheim's own lack of judgment.

You know, After Eight, since I read Sondheim's remark, I've been listing to Lerner scores and I have to say I see what Sondheim means. Lerner likes elevated diction and he can sometimes be clever with a rhyme ("vous sommes" being an exception), but I don't hear much content there.

To wit,

"I have often walked down this street before,
But the pavement always stayed beneath my feet before,
All at once am I
Several stories high
Knowing I'm on the street where you live."

Nothing wrong with the superficial craft of the above, but does the song really tell us anything new about the sensation of falling in love? (I realize we can't expect too much from poor, dim Freddy, but Lerner's other love songs aren't that much different.)

Even worse, the CLIMAX of ON A CLEAR DAY:

"Hear my voice, where you are
Take a train, steal a car
Hop a freight, grab a star
Come back to me

Catch a flame, catch a breeze
On your hands, on your knees
Swim or fly, only please
Come on back to me:

By the time we get to:

"If your date waits below
Let him wait for Godot"

we may laugh, but we KNOW Lerner has nothing to say about reunions, missing Daisy, finding a lost loved one or any of the many elements that are inherent to the situation including mental telepathy. FWIW, I LOVE that song, but not because it advances the dramatic action.

Finally,

"All I want is a room somewhere
Far away from the cold, night air
With one enormous chair,
Ah, wouldn't it be loverly?"

Now I get that Liza's experience is so limited her dreams are small and most of us will agree that "loverly" is a terrific expression. But having "small" dreams doesn't mean the character can't have dreams that are specific to her, something we don't hear that in the song.

Alan Jay Lerner is like a Lorenz Hart, writing generically and mostly in his own voice, but doing so without the genuine wit of Hart and long after the practice of musical theater had evolved into something more sophisticated.

Updated On: 9/9/14 at 10:18 PM

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 9/8/14 at 10:21pm

Hanna, I think that may be the best couplet in the song.

henrik, I think Yip Harburg got away with a lot of odd word choices because so many of his shows were set in magical settings (even Missitucky). I'm not bothered by "adora-bell" at all; not in that show.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 9/8/14 at 10:24pm

You will not ever discuss a point that AfterEight will concede. It would be easier to try to remove a hard candy that's been stuck inside a cut glass bowl on a doily on a sidebar in his gracious, velvet-draped drawing room since 1947.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 9/8/14 at 10:29pm

I know, Namo, but i'm often thinking aloud here. I felt a need to defend my view with something other than, "Well, Sondheim said it." I actually disagree with a lot of Sondheim's pronouncements, particularly when it comes to Brecht and to Sondheim's insistence that conventions (certain characters belong in opera; rhyming always implies intelligence) are natural law.

I was quite surprised by his verdict on Loewe, until I thought about it.

But back to After Eight; one would think he would bore himself after awhile.

Updated On: 9/8/14 at 10:29 PM

[Auggie27]

Posted: 9/8/14 at 10:59pm

"Sometimes I stand in the middle of the floor/not going left, not going right."

Back in the day, I thought these were satirical, a parody of torch, not deadly earnest. I still believe I'm right.

[Auggie27]

Posted: 9/8/14 at 10:59pm

"The earth will wave with corn
The gray-fly choir will mourn
And mares will neigh with
Stallions that they mate, foals they've borne
And all shall know the wonder of purple summer."

Updated On: 9/8/14 at 10:59 PM

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 9/9/14 at 2:55am

Back in the day, I thought these were satirical, a parody of torch, not deadly earnest. I still believe I'm right.

Did you not know the actual show? Sally is never ironic.

The lines you quote may be a metaphor for how she feels, but I doubt it. I think she literally means she walks across a room thinking of Ben, and then stops, frozen, not remembering where she is going. Like senile people do, only Sally's problem is obsession with the past, not senility.

No parody about it.

[After Eight]

Posted: 9/9/14 at 7:32am

"You know, After Eight, since I read Sondheim's remark, I've been listing to Lerner scores and I have to say I see what Sondheim means."

Well, surprise, surprise. Who'da ever thunk it?

"Lerner likes elevated diction and he can sometimes be clever with a rhyme ("vous sommes" being an exception), but I don't hear much content there. "

You're not listening.

"I have often walked down this street before,
But the pavement always stayed beneath my feet before,
All at once am I
Several stories high
Knowing I'm on the street where you live."

"Nothing wrong with the superficial craft of the above,"

There's nothing superficial about it. It's deft, poetic, beautiful, and profound. In short, perfect.


" but does the song really tell us anything new about the sensation of falling in love?"

It says it as well as any other song I can think of, if not better. Here's a news flash for you: The poster-person for love is not Fosca.

" FWIW,"

Which is nothing, I assure you, just like rhe rest of the drivel you've propounded here,

" I LOVE that song, but not because it advances the dramatic action."

Oh my, oh my! How could you EVER love a song that doesn't advance the dramatic action! Careful now, you're going to lose your street cred among the pedantic, egghead brigade. They may very well drum you right out of academia, not to mention the Sondheim Foreign-to-Feeling Legion!

"Finally, "

At last! Why are you adacemic, pedantic bores so long winded???

"Now I get that Liza's experience is so limited her dreams are small and most of us will agree that "loverly" is a terrific expression.. But having "small" dreams doesn't mean the character can't have dreams that are specific to her, something we don't hear that in the song. "

Bullcrap. You don't listen, you don't think, you don't feel, you don't know what the hell you're talking about. The references to chocolates and coal are not specific to Eliza? But why even bother reasoning with someone who doesn't care about the facts or the truth, and is incapable of recognizing either?

"Alan Jay Lerner is like a Lorenz Hart, writing generically"

Ridiculous, and an affront.





Updated On: 9/9/14 at 07:32 AM

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 9/9/14 at 7:59pm

After-Eight, your post is just as long as mine, so accusations on that score don't mean much.

I retired from academia years ago.

I don't see the profundity you find in Freddy's song. In fact we have an ancient cliche, "I'm walking on air", that expresses the same idea. Now, as I said, I realize that Freddy is not a character from whom one expects originality or erudition, but neither is FOLLIES' Sally--and yet Sondheim manages to give her:

"I should have worn green,
I wore green the last time,
The time I was happy."

Which has more actual content than anything Lerner ever wrote.

You are confusing glibness with wisdom and wit, something Grandmother cautioned me against.



Updated On: 9/9/14 at 07:59 PM

[Sally Durant Plummer]

Posted: 9/9/14 at 8:10pm

A favorite quote of mine:

"Oh, and or [sic] the record, I do not hate Sondheim's work"

- After Eight

[mjohnson2]

Posted: 9/9/14 at 8:21pm

Sally, we get it. You like After Eight and think that the hate on him is excessive; I like him too, but it doesn't need to be said all the time. He doesn't hate every single thing that Sondheim has written, but I do believe that he is not a fan of either the show or the score or the lyrics for every single Sondheim musical, or at least has major criticisms with every single one of them.

Updated On: 9/9/14 at 08:21 PM

[Miranda3]

Posted: 9/9/14 at 8:31pm

I hate the lyrics to "Fifty Percent" from Ballroom but can still be moved when Dorothy Loudon sings them. Not sure if true, but I heard that Sondheim's hearing Loudon sing "Fifty Percent" at the Tonys was what made him think she could and should replace Lansbury in Sweeney, which she then did.

[Sally Durant Plummer]

Posted: 9/9/14 at 8:44pm

Mjohnson, that wasn't the pint I was trying to make. Regardless of feelings on After Eight, I still find it funny to think of that quote after reading another one of his tirades. I thought I might share it with others. Obviously, it was misunderstood.

Besides, there is some behavior I don't condone. Attacking other posters (such as Whizzer) is against my personal tastes, but that is against the point.

Updated On: 9/9/14 at 08:44 PM

[Charley Kringas Inc]

Posted: 9/9/14 at 9:20pm

I've always had mixed feelings about My Fair Lady on the whole, so I guess I'm not surprised I sorta agree with the lyrical criticisms. "The Street Where You Live" is certainly a gorgeous song, as is "Wouldn't It Be Loverly" (both are shower standards in my house) but the lyrics aren't exactly exemplary in regards to character building or even general originality - they're nice lyrics, and the rhymes are pretty clever, but really the only quality I could assign them is "good". They're "good" lyrics lifted by really lovely music. In a way, it does befit the show, which is pretty much a direct copy of Pygmalion with musical numbers added, but I do wish they had a little more to them.

[After Eight]

Posted: 9/10/14 at 6:50am

"Which has more actual content than anything Lerner ever wrote. "

Yeah, like you know every word Lerner ever wrote.

You're so full of it.



Updated On: 9/10/14 at 06:50 AM

[tazber]

Posted: 9/10/14 at 7:02am

Takes one to know one.

[After Eight]

Posted: 9/10/14 at 7:46am

"I've always had mixed feelings about My Fair Lady on the whole, so I guess I'm not surprised I sorta agree with the lyrical criticisms. "

Do you sorta?

""The Street Where You Live" is certainly a gorgeous song, as is "Wouldn't It Be Loverly" (both are shower standards in my house) but the lyrics aren't exactly exemplary in regards to character building or even general originality -"

Get off it, already, you and all those like you. We're not fooled by this whole "character building" line. We know it's just
so much crap invented by the bad guys to somehow con us into thinking the crap that their heroes write is any good. But you see, we're not buying that line, nor the crap you're selling. We don't give a damn about "character building" songs. We give a damn about GOOD songs. And our ears suffice to tell us which are the beautiful ones, and which sound like the miauling of a sick cat. In other words, Charlie Kringas Inc, a song like On The Street Where You Live is a million times better than a dog like Fanklin Shepard Inc. Why? Quite simply because our ears tell us so.

"they're nice lyrics, and the rhymes are pretty clever, but really the only quality I could assign them is "good"."

Oh, is that so? All you can assign them is "good?" Wow, what a tough professor you are!

" They're "good" lyrics lifted by really lovely music. In a way, it does befit the show, which is pretty much a direct copy of Pygmalion with musical numbers added, but I do wish they had a little more to them."

Thank God they don't have the kind of "little more" you would visit upon them.

Why do the bad guys feel impelled to tear down all that is beautiful in this world? Is it because they themselves have an aversion to anything beautiful, and try to destroy it for everyone else? No doubt that's a good part of it. Or, maybe, quite simply, it's just because, well, they're the bad guys.

[tazber]

Posted: 9/10/14 at 8:01am

^^^^^^

Do you not realize that you are a "bad guy" yourself tearing down everything that was written in the last 35 years?

Your lack of self awareness is matched only by your blatant hypocrisy.

Both of which pale in comparison to your obnoxiousness.