#201
Posted: 8/9/05 at 3:43pm
mjlc's words...please!
Marc Shaiman responds to Michael John La Chiusa — Page 9
#202
Posted: 8/9/05 at 3:52pm
Intriguing. But again, I think people are misreading LC's opening paragraph. The article was specifically to discuss what's on Broadway and why one might not find "art" there.
That's all.
Robbiej, I agree with you re: the definition of faux theatre. Given his examples, though, I think he means it as defined by self-referential shows. It's more a postmodern thing, I suppose. Self-referential shows toss that knowing wink of "hey kids, we're in a show!" Rodgers et al used to do shows about kids putting on a show (Babes in Arms anyone?) but it was never with that knowing of a wink.
And I think LaChiusa's correct when he suggests it is sort of a dead end row to hoe in pushing musical theatre forward. I don't necessarily agree it's automatically bad theatre, though.
That's all.
Robbiej, I agree with you re: the definition of faux theatre. Given his examples, though, I think he means it as defined by self-referential shows. It's more a postmodern thing, I suppose. Self-referential shows toss that knowing wink of "hey kids, we're in a show!" Rodgers et al used to do shows about kids putting on a show (Babes in Arms anyone?) but it was never with that knowing of a wink.
And I think LaChiusa's correct when he suggests it is sort of a dead end row to hoe in pushing musical theatre forward. I don't necessarily agree it's automatically bad theatre, though.
#203
Posted: 8/9/05 at 4:29pm
I read the article in its entirety and it's not as bad as I expected, though I didn't like his use of the term faux musical. I don't necessarily see the support of Marc Shaiman on this thread as a** kissing in comparison to the other board where someone came right out and asked for a job!! Now, that's a different story.
#204
Posted: 8/9/05 at 4:35pm
Wow. Someone actually did that? And they actually, somewhere in their mind, thought that was a good idea?
#205
Posted: 8/9/05 at 4:40pm
bwaysinger, this is for you (taken from one of the posts at ATC):
"If you ever need an adoring drummer to play a show for you, call me, at this point I'll do it for free"
"If you ever need an adoring drummer to play a show for you, call me, at this point I'll do it for free"
#206
Posted: 8/9/05 at 4:42pm
Hmm, well, that could just be silliness at play. I mean, god knows I'd sing for Shaiman or LaChiusa for free if they ever, you know, do a concert at Joe's Pub. But I know there are people who really, truly, sincerely contact people like that and attempt to get some job out of their previous brown-nosing. And it's disturbing.
*the offer to sing for you guys for free stands, though*
*the offer to sing for you guys for free stands, though*
#207
Posted: 8/9/05 at 4:42pm
i just threw up in my mouth, a little.
Mind is Mantra.
#208
Posted: 8/9/05 at 4:50pm
Oh, I've seen far worse. I've seen people introduce themselves to composers and such, resume or business card in hand, and start working it.
I swear, this profession is worse than prostitution.
I swear, this profession is worse than prostitution.
#209
Posted: 8/9/05 at 4:54pm
I almost feel sorry for La Chiusa. With two new musicals headed to the NY theater scene this winter, he's managed to insult more than half of NY's theater world. I wouldn't be surprised if both closed early due to a lack of ticket sales.
However, there are classy individuals who will still go to see these shows because they ARE theatrical pieces.
What a shameful display, Mr. La Chiusa. And to think I was about to pop in one of your scores onto my CD player. And to, dare I even say it, I had JUST been listening to HAIRSPRAY!!!!!!
Off to the firing squads, I go, I presume?
However, there are classy individuals who will still go to see these shows because they ARE theatrical pieces.
What a shameful display, Mr. La Chiusa. And to think I was about to pop in one of your scores onto my CD player. And to, dare I even say it, I had JUST been listening to HAIRSPRAY!!!!!!
Off to the firing squads, I go, I presume?
"I know now that theatre saved my life." - Susan Stroman
#210
Posted: 8/9/05 at 4:56pm
That HONESTLY is what you think the article is saying...about you?
Then you completely misread it.
Then you completely misread it.
"I'm so looking forward to a time when all the Reagan Democrats are dead."
#211
Posted: 8/9/05 at 4:58pm
robbie, who is that directed to? Mr. Shaiman?
"I know now that theatre saved my life." - Susan Stroman
#212
Posted: 8/9/05 at 4:59pm
i haven't given a thought to HAIRSPRAY since i saw it. i think that musicals are evolving, not dead. look at what we've been through in the last 4 years since 9/11. i think the happy/escapism is fulfilling a need.
Mind is Mantra.
Updated On: 8/9/05 at 04:59 PM
#213
Posted: 8/9/05 at 4:59pm
Something to ponder...
Broadway musicals, as we know them now, are still very much a young and emerging art form. People have been painting vases and playing symphonies FAR longer than anyone's been strutting a kick-line to an upbeat tune in Act II. How can anyone say Broadway is fading, or dying? It's still so young! I think that the next several decades will see much innovation from composers as varied as the Jelly Bellys in the every-flavor bin. (Sorry, just got off work from the candy shoppe...) Just looking through the variety in my CD wallet - from Songs for a New World to Mame to Song and Dance to Nine to Pippin to Tick, tick... BOOM! to Li'l Abner to The Secret Garden to Myths and Hymns... there is SO much variety and growth happening that there's no way the "artistry" could be dying, it's only just budding. To say that art is dying on Broadway is to look at the buds on a new rosebush and say that the bush is dying. No... the flowers just haven't fully blossomed yet.
And, say I'm kissing @ss all you want, I fully agree about the wrestling - be it in mud, jello or banana cream pudding... of course, do the pudding and I'd not so much be kissing @ss as lick... wait... this is getting inappropriate...
*goes off to a fantasyland that includes butterscotch pudding*
Broadway musicals, as we know them now, are still very much a young and emerging art form. People have been painting vases and playing symphonies FAR longer than anyone's been strutting a kick-line to an upbeat tune in Act II. How can anyone say Broadway is fading, or dying? It's still so young! I think that the next several decades will see much innovation from composers as varied as the Jelly Bellys in the every-flavor bin. (Sorry, just got off work from the candy shoppe...) Just looking through the variety in my CD wallet - from Songs for a New World to Mame to Song and Dance to Nine to Pippin to Tick, tick... BOOM! to Li'l Abner to The Secret Garden to Myths and Hymns... there is SO much variety and growth happening that there's no way the "artistry" could be dying, it's only just budding. To say that art is dying on Broadway is to look at the buds on a new rosebush and say that the bush is dying. No... the flowers just haven't fully blossomed yet.
And, say I'm kissing @ss all you want, I fully agree about the wrestling - be it in mud, jello or banana cream pudding... of course, do the pudding and I'd not so much be kissing @ss as lick... wait... this is getting inappropriate...
*goes off to a fantasyland that includes butterscotch pudding*
Avatar - Isaac, my blue-fronted Amazon parrot. Adopted 9/7/07. Age 30 (my pet is older than me!)
#214
Posted: 8/9/05 at 5:03pm
But you're just using the wrong terminology here, Mistress, because some of the shows you mentioned weren't on Broadway and never will be.
SO musical theatre is evolving yes, but Broadway is, I think, stagnating. Look at the spate of movies-to-musicals we have forthcoming (even the Color Purple, which apparently first attempted to shake the spectre of the film, is now embracing that connection). There's a uniformity of product that exists in commercial theatre on Broadway for the most part.
SO musical theatre is evolving yes, but Broadway is, I think, stagnating. Look at the spate of movies-to-musicals we have forthcoming (even the Color Purple, which apparently first attempted to shake the spectre of the film, is now embracing that connection). There's a uniformity of product that exists in commercial theatre on Broadway for the most part.
#215
Posted: 8/9/05 at 5:06pm
You, iluv. I can comprehend Marc's reaction. MJL criticized his work. But if you're taking away that he's trying to make you feel bad for liking HAIRSPRAY, then you're wrong about this article.
Look...calling something 'faux' without explaining what 'real theatre' is (at least in his opinion) does his article no service. Perhaps it is as bdwysinger said and it's referencing all the knowing irony that is contained in many of the shows cited. Or perhaps he meant something else. It's tough to really have an argument about it because I'm not on 100% solid ground regarding his thesis.
But nowhere in his article did I get the feeling that he was saying that YOU have a deficiency for liking HAIRSPRAY. It has nothing to do with you...or me. It has to do with the state of Broadway (not theatre...which people confuse regularly and shouldn't).
Look...calling something 'faux' without explaining what 'real theatre' is (at least in his opinion) does his article no service. Perhaps it is as bdwysinger said and it's referencing all the knowing irony that is contained in many of the shows cited. Or perhaps he meant something else. It's tough to really have an argument about it because I'm not on 100% solid ground regarding his thesis.
But nowhere in his article did I get the feeling that he was saying that YOU have a deficiency for liking HAIRSPRAY. It has nothing to do with you...or me. It has to do with the state of Broadway (not theatre...which people confuse regularly and shouldn't).
"I'm so looking forward to a time when all the Reagan Democrats are dead."
#216
Posted: 8/9/05 at 5:06pm
I love Marc's rebuttal! Makes me even more determined to enjoy Hairspray tonight. 
My avatar is a reminder to myself. I need lots of reminders...
#217
Posted: 8/9/05 at 5:08pm
Granted, I mixed some B-way in with some Non-B-way...
But is Broadway REALLY so separate from the "rest" of the theatre world that it doesn't reflect what's happening elsewhere???
But is Broadway REALLY so separate from the "rest" of the theatre world that it doesn't reflect what's happening elsewhere???
Avatar - Isaac, my blue-fronted Amazon parrot. Adopted 9/7/07. Age 30 (my pet is older than me!)
#219
Posted: 8/9/05 at 5:12pm
WAIT!
The mud wrestling is the ASS kissing part?
Well, damn! I didn't know.
The mud wrestling is the ASS kissing part?
Well, damn! I didn't know.
#220
Posted: 8/9/05 at 5:17pm
OK, my last post was too terse, I admit it. Hit a regional theater some night, then go to a plays-in-progress series, then visit a dinner theater in your community, then go to a cabaret, then visit on off-off-Broadway space. There is a wider variety going on in the "theatre" than Broadway can possibly encompass. That's the nature of having limited space for productions, and it's exacerbated by the high financial stakes of mounting a Broadway production, especially a for-profit musical.
#221
Posted: 8/9/05 at 5:23pm
The only thing that pissed me off was putting DRS with BKLYN.
But I'm over it cause I just finished listening to SEE WHAT I WANNA SEE for the umpteenth time.
But I'm over it cause I just finished listening to SEE WHAT I WANNA SEE for the umpteenth time.
#222
Posted: 8/9/05 at 5:24pm
I have to argue with your take that "Wicked" isn't a "serious" musical. Though couched in very typical musical comedy language, the show touches on some very serious issues. At the onset very funny and melodic, the score becomess politically pointed and at times very dramatically charged. The lead roles are very complex women. As Glinda sings in Act II "There's a sort of a kind of cost/A couple of things get lost/There are bridges you've crossed/You don't even know you've crossed/Until you've crossed." That is an exceptionally character specific lyric, very layered, not light. More so, it shows such a growth in character from Act One's Glinda! This is the best kind of serious musical theatre. The kind that acknowledges traditional musical idioms and transcends them. Though I still would label "Wicked" a "musical comedy" the "laughs" eventually give way to actual unironic "thoughts" and deepen the comedy as well as the drama.
#223
Posted: 8/9/05 at 5:27pm
Wow, this is a hot topic! Anyway, I read the article a few days ago before all of this started and was so glad to see that people were responding to it, especially people who are in the industry as heavily as Marc. My two cents on the article is that it had absolutely nothing to say. I am with RobbieJ in saying that the thesis is never clear and his idea of "real" theatre is never defined. The entire article seemed to go in circles without ever making a clear point. Now, I'm not claiming to be the smartest person on these boards at all, but by the end of it, I was thoroughly confused on why he was writing this article, and moreover, why he continues to write and produce his work for broadway if it is a lost cause. I actually have a better grasp on what he was trying to say from reading people on here trying to defend it.
And an interesting line I couldn't quite make sense of was his comment on Idina Menzel "hollering an incomprehensible pop-ballad" in reference to Defying Gravity. I know for many this is a valid definition of the song, but I somehow couldn't tell if this was a jab at Schwartz or Menzel, both, or neither. I think I would feel ill-at-ease if such a thing was said about my performance in my last show before I started working on a show by the article's author. I could very well be misinterpreting, but I just thought it was an interesting situation.
And an interesting line I couldn't quite make sense of was his comment on Idina Menzel "hollering an incomprehensible pop-ballad" in reference to Defying Gravity. I know for many this is a valid definition of the song, but I somehow couldn't tell if this was a jab at Schwartz or Menzel, both, or neither. I think I would feel ill-at-ease if such a thing was said about my performance in my last show before I started working on a show by the article's author. I could very well be misinterpreting, but I just thought it was an interesting situation.
#224
Posted: 8/9/05 at 5:30pm
It's "There's a kind of a sort of cost"
And besides, the book is layered. The musical is fun. It lightly touches in the political arena, without going all the way.
"There's a cry
In the distance
It's a voice
That comes from deep within
There's a cry
Asking why
I pray the answer's up ahead
'Cause I know where I've been
There's a road
We've been travelin'
Lost so many on the way
But the riches
Will be plenty
Worth the price
We had to pay
There's a dream
In the future
There's a struggle
We have yet to win
And there's pride
In my heart
'Cause I know
Where I'm going
And I know where i've been"
And then...
"'Cause just to sit still
Would be a sin"
That song is much deeper than any rhyme in "Wicked" and perhaps stands out more from the purple fluff.
And besides, the book is layered. The musical is fun. It lightly touches in the political arena, without going all the way.
"There's a cry
In the distance
It's a voice
That comes from deep within
There's a cry
Asking why
I pray the answer's up ahead
'Cause I know where I've been
There's a road
We've been travelin'
Lost so many on the way
But the riches
Will be plenty
Worth the price
We had to pay
There's a dream
In the future
There's a struggle
We have yet to win
And there's pride
In my heart
'Cause I know
Where I'm going
And I know where i've been"
And then...
"'Cause just to sit still
Would be a sin"
That song is much deeper than any rhyme in "Wicked" and perhaps stands out more from the purple fluff.
Updated On: 8/9/05 at 05:30 PM
#225
Posted: 8/9/05 at 5:32pm
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