#226
Posted: 8/9/05 at 5:34pm
melynee - I don't believe it was a jab at Idina. I can't speak for Schwartz.
Marc Shaiman responds to Michael John La Chiusa — Page 10
#227
Posted: 8/9/05 at 5:37pm
I doubted it would be. I didn't want to get any of those "you don't know what you're talking about posts" some people leave when discussions get heated, but just thought it was interesting because it's a comment that, like most of his article, seemed somewhat vague and like a disguised jab at someone.
#228
Posted: 8/9/05 at 5:40pm
These comments about the meaning of shows or songs from shows are exactly why La Chiusa should have rethought his statements. The purpose of art is to provoke. To say that you PERSONALLY aren't provoked by a piece of art doesn't make it NOT art. Thenardier is very moved by the lyrics of "I know where I've been." Maybe it hits a personal note for him that it doesn't for others. Holbee is moved by the journey that Glinda goes through in Wicked, how she changes from Act I (Popular) to Act II (Thank Goodness). And that's what art is supposed to do. And while works of La Chiusa and Sondheim may make broader statements or are filled with more instances of "stating a point," that doesn't make these works better or worse -- it just makes them different. There are people out there (believe it or not) who have NEVER seen a musical. And if "Wicked" or "Hairspray" catch their interest and make them crave more, then we all are better for it.
". . . POP . . ."
Updated On: 8/9/05 at 05:40 PM
#229
Posted: 8/9/05 at 5:40pm
Yeah, I'm not quite sure about that point - especially since the lyrics are probably some of the few that tie the show together with the Wizard of Oz (not to mention repeating the Wizard's "A Sentimental Man").
So, I dunno.
So, I dunno.
#230
Posted: 8/9/05 at 5:45pm
" I think it's a HUGE misconception (or fallacy or somesuch) that Broadway is the home of the advancing art form of musical theatre.
I'd have to counter that it's never really been."
That is absurd. Since day one, advances in the form, from whatever source, gain acceptance and become incorporated into the genre ONLY when they are embraced by a Broadway or Off-Broadway paying audience. They don't spontaneously appear in a vacuum or a writer's garret or in a community theater in Podunk. The amazing development of American musical theater from its inception to its present incarnation evolved before a Broadway audience's very eyes.
TheEnchantedHunter
Ted Hunter, Cane, NH
I'd have to counter that it's never really been."
That is absurd. Since day one, advances in the form, from whatever source, gain acceptance and become incorporated into the genre ONLY when they are embraced by a Broadway or Off-Broadway paying audience. They don't spontaneously appear in a vacuum or a writer's garret or in a community theater in Podunk. The amazing development of American musical theater from its inception to its present incarnation evolved before a Broadway audience's very eyes.
TheEnchantedHunter
Ted Hunter, Cane, NH
#231
Posted: 8/9/05 at 5:48pm
To believe that, Enchanted, is what makes it a misconception.
Look at it this way. How many people here love Piazza? Well, after the arts festival, before Seattle, it laid dormant. Imagine if they decided never to go on with it...There's a great piece of theatre that never made it.
Same with many shows. They get heavily recognized after making it to Broadway. This is different than "the advancing art form of musical theatre."
Consider Hollywood and Independant films.
Look at it this way. How many people here love Piazza? Well, after the arts festival, before Seattle, it laid dormant. Imagine if they decided never to go on with it...There's a great piece of theatre that never made it.
Same with many shows. They get heavily recognized after making it to Broadway. This is different than "the advancing art form of musical theatre."
Consider Hollywood and Independant films.
Updated On: 8/9/05 at 05:48 PM
#232
Posted: 8/9/05 at 5:56pm
Yeah, gotta go with you being wrong, Enchanted. The development, the NURTURING, of musical theatre does not and never happened here on Broadway.
Avenue Q? Got its start at BMI, a little refuge, if you will, of nurturing (sometimes) in the New York City theatre scene.
It's not designed to make Broadway shows, though.
Same thing with NYU's graduate writing program.
Even shows where the primary goal was Broadway in the Golden Age did their refining and went through their shaping process out of town.
Theatre is nurtured and created outside the Broadway scene. It comes here to turn a hefty profit.
I'm not saying it's bad. I love, love, love being able to go see a show with a splashy $10 million budget and huge casts and (sometimes) large orchestras.
I love more, though, those little theatres across this country that take chances on shows such as Avenue Q (thanks, Vineyard), Das Barbecu (was it 5th Avenue?), and places like La Jolla Playhouse, or the Alley for taking a chance on some new guy who might be the next SHaiman or LaChiusa.
Avenue Q? Got its start at BMI, a little refuge, if you will, of nurturing (sometimes) in the New York City theatre scene.
It's not designed to make Broadway shows, though.
Same thing with NYU's graduate writing program.
Even shows where the primary goal was Broadway in the Golden Age did their refining and went through their shaping process out of town.
Theatre is nurtured and created outside the Broadway scene. It comes here to turn a hefty profit.
I'm not saying it's bad. I love, love, love being able to go see a show with a splashy $10 million budget and huge casts and (sometimes) large orchestras.
I love more, though, those little theatres across this country that take chances on shows such as Avenue Q (thanks, Vineyard), Das Barbecu (was it 5th Avenue?), and places like La Jolla Playhouse, or the Alley for taking a chance on some new guy who might be the next SHaiman or LaChiusa.
#233
Posted: 8/9/05 at 6:38pm
Indeed, bwaysinger! The two best musicals I've seen this year weren't on Broadway, but at the Connelly Theater (Prospect Theater Company) on E 4th street (THE PUSUIT OF PERSEPHONE) and the New York Theater Workshop a few blocks away (SONGS FROM AN UNMADE BED). And ---someone refresh my memory - what festival did ALTAR BOYZ start at? Thanks!
"Christ, Bette Davis?!?!"
#234
Posted: 8/9/05 at 6:43pm
Variety Weighs In
http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117927224?categoryid=15&cs=1&s=h&p=0
http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117927224?categoryid=15&cs=1&s=h&p=0
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men" - Willy Wonka
#235
Posted: 8/9/05 at 6:56pm
LaChiusa then draws stage blood when he surmises, "A philosopher might consider them simulacra: Plato's 'copy of a copy,' a fake that seems more real than the real thing."
Wasn't that comment referring to Spamalot? Which is one of the worst musicals on Broadway, IMO.
Anyway, wow. This thing really did BLOW up.
Wasn't that comment referring to Spamalot? Which is one of the worst musicals on Broadway, IMO.
Anyway, wow. This thing really did BLOW up.
Updated On: 8/9/05 at 06:56 PM
#236
Posted: 8/9/05 at 7:04pm
La Chiusa's just a bitter queen because his work doesn't fly off like others' work has.
"I know now that theatre saved my life." - Susan Stroman
#237
Posted: 8/9/05 at 7:30pm
"My one big problem with the article is not the word 'faux', but the word 'theatre'. MJL doesn't ever define theatre for us. Now...that may seem unnecessary, but it's actually not. I remember getting in an argument with someone in college over a production of THE BALD SOPRANO. I thought it was thrilling; my friend thought it was decidedly not theatre. We simply had different ideas of what theatre is or could be. Knowing MJL's personal definition of theatre, I would then understand his use of the word 'faux'."
Well said as usual Robbie, I did read the entire article and after a bit I started losing focus because a)I'm a dummy and b) I couldn't embrace the idea of one definition of what Broadway theater is, or should be...right, wrong or CARRIE (which parts of I loved!).
All I know is I want me some joy, and musical theater gives it to me like nothin' else, well expect for maybe my beloved star wars action figures or VH1's Strip Search...oops, off topic again, um where was I?, oh YEAH, the death of "Broadway" well the way I see it whether it's the AMAZING Cheyenne Jackson shakin' it out in ALL SHOOK UP, or that pesky Phantom haunting the Opera House, when those house lights dim and the overture starts up I don't care if it's Sweeney Todd slicing or Tracy Turnblad dancing, YES DANCING..I feel very much alive,happy in the fact that Broadway ain't anywhere near dead yet.....well, not to this dummy anyway.
Well said as usual Robbie, I did read the entire article and after a bit I started losing focus because a)I'm a dummy and b) I couldn't embrace the idea of one definition of what Broadway theater is, or should be...right, wrong or CARRIE (which parts of I loved!).
All I know is I want me some joy, and musical theater gives it to me like nothin' else, well expect for maybe my beloved star wars action figures or VH1's Strip Search...oops, off topic again, um where was I?, oh YEAH, the death of "Broadway" well the way I see it whether it's the AMAZING Cheyenne Jackson shakin' it out in ALL SHOOK UP, or that pesky Phantom haunting the Opera House, when those house lights dim and the overture starts up I don't care if it's Sweeney Todd slicing or Tracy Turnblad dancing, YES DANCING..I feel very much alive,happy in the fact that Broadway ain't anywhere near dead yet.....well, not to this dummy anyway.
#238
Posted: 8/9/05 at 7:34pm
You're no dummy. Not if you appreciate that the same composer who wrote "Show Boat" also wrote "Very Good Eddie."
It's all good. Unless it's boring.
It's all good. Unless it's boring.
#239
Posted: 8/9/05 at 7:44pm
#240
Posted: 8/9/05 at 8:06pm
Let's take this to the Off Topic Board!
Let's cast BROADWAY BITCHSLAP, THE MUSICAL COMEDY!
Let's Cast BROADWAY BITCHSLAP, THE MUSICAL COMEDY
Let's cast BROADWAY BITCHSLAP, THE MUSICAL COMEDY!
Let's Cast BROADWAY BITCHSLAP, THE MUSICAL COMEDY
#241
Posted: 8/9/05 at 8:09pm
Immaturity knows no bounds.
#242
Posted: 8/9/05 at 9:19pm
I agree with you Mr. Michael John LaChiusa. That "Marie Christine" is a real hoot! You ain't been entertained until a real, live Greek Chorus starts a'singin' at ya. Makes a boy wanna kick his heels up and hoedown Broadway-style. Now, ya'll may prefer the traitorous race-mixing of "Hairspray" but I likes my musicals to be pedantic. Now, don't start callin' me a racist or a pedophile or a racist pedophile. I am just an American. A real American who likes his women compliant and his musicals real highbrow and smart-like. Like one of those nerds that ya pick on in high school when you steal his lunch money and force him to perform certain acts in the locker room. It don't make you gay. He did it, he's the gay one. Ya'll see what I'm gettin' at?
#243
Posted: 8/9/05 at 9:32pm
FINALLY!! THe voice of reason!!
Welcome back RSR!
Welcome back RSR!
#244
Posted: 8/9/05 at 9:46pm
"Like one of those nerds that ya pick on in high school when you steal his lunch money and force him to perform certain acts in the locker room..."
So, THAT'S the cut scene from HAIRSPRAY!
So, THAT'S the cut scene from HAIRSPRAY!
"If you really loved me, you'd enjoy my cold, joyless gloom."
#245
Bwaysinger, your post concerned itself with "advancing the art form." I stand by my statements. The simple fact is, if Avenue Q and any other show did not succeed on Broadway, it wouldn't matter WHERE it was fostered, nurtured, developed, it wouldn't matter how good or bad or different it was--the only thing that ultimately matters is how it fares on commercial mainstream Broadway. Then and only then does it stand a chance to make any long-lasting impact on the form. It's the old philosophical conundrum: if a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound? If Avenue Q shuttered at the Vineyard after its initial run, there would not be a theater being built in Las Vegas to accommodate it.
The sung-through musical is another case in point. If it weren't for Lloyd Webber's SUCCESSFUL pioneering efforts on recordings, the West End and Broadway (no matter what you might think of them), it's very possible you NEVER would have had a Les Miserables. Without the success of MAMMA MIA!, for good or ill, you would not have the subsequent rash of jukebox musicals. And so goes the market: t'was thus and t'will ever be.
TheEnchantedHunter
Ted Hunter, Cane, NH
Posted: 8/9/05 at 10:49pm
Bwaysinger, your post concerned itself with "advancing the art form." I stand by my statements. The simple fact is, if Avenue Q and any other show did not succeed on Broadway, it wouldn't matter WHERE it was fostered, nurtured, developed, it wouldn't matter how good or bad or different it was--the only thing that ultimately matters is how it fares on commercial mainstream Broadway. Then and only then does it stand a chance to make any long-lasting impact on the form. It's the old philosophical conundrum: if a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound? If Avenue Q shuttered at the Vineyard after its initial run, there would not be a theater being built in Las Vegas to accommodate it.
The sung-through musical is another case in point. If it weren't for Lloyd Webber's SUCCESSFUL pioneering efforts on recordings, the West End and Broadway (no matter what you might think of them), it's very possible you NEVER would have had a Les Miserables. Without the success of MAMMA MIA!, for good or ill, you would not have the subsequent rash of jukebox musicals. And so goes the market: t'was thus and t'will ever be.
TheEnchantedHunter
Ted Hunter, Cane, NH
#246
Posted: 8/10/05 at 2:17am
I saw Hairspray tonight and wanted to try to give a bit of a review on how the show is holding up given the recent hullabaloo. Bear with me as this is my first review.
I went to dinner at Barrymore's with the friend I am staying with and three other friends. We also ran into someone else who I was really pleased to meet albeit very briefly but don't want to sound like a name dropper especially when I only briefly met him. From there, I went to the Neil Simon and got seated with about 5 minutes before curtain. I was seated in Row N Seat 7 (left side of the auditorium) but the seats were great. I didn't have any problem seeing anything, though I was a bit miffed because a few rows ahead there were some latecomers who were taking forever during the initial blackout but luckily they go out of the way in time for me to see Tracy (Shannon Durig) begin Good Morning Baltimore. Her energy from beginning to end was wonderful. Shannon had me convinced from moment one that she was Tracy. She was just a ball of energy.
Tracy Miller was hilarious as Penny. Great comedic timing. The pauses after she would say one of her obvious or random statements and the look on her face made me really laugh hard. Also loved how this huge voice comes out of nowhere in You Can't Stop the Beat.
Jonathan Dukowitz was great as Corny Collins. He played Corny very well. There is not too much to say about him since Corny actually doesn't talk too much in the show, but I especially loved how he pulled off the threat to Velma VonTussle while staying sugary sweet.
Becky Gulsvig did well as Amber Von Tussle. A very immature and childish personality that was well suited to the character.
Richard Blake did a great job with Link Larkin. He convincingly and comedically fell in love with Tracy which I did not feel was a very easy thing to pull off. It could have easily been very cheesy and unbelievable if played wrong.
Bruce Vilanch as Edna was comedic gold. He was amazing. He could sit there and not say a word for a good minute at least. Just by slowly moving after Velma insults Tracy in the record store had the entire audience going. Another golden moment was during Timeless to Me while he is sitting there absolutely silent with Wilbur cupping his breasts. He cracked three jokes in the pause and it had the audience laughing good and long. As I said before genius!
Barbara Walsh as Velma did well. I had pictured the part as less cartoonish than she played it. It wasn't overly cartoonish but it was more than I was expecting. (Serves me right for going in with preconceived notions.) It wasn't bad, just a little different than I expected. I enjoyed her.
Todd Susman was hilarious as Wilbur and he fit the part well. (I am pretty sure I own the same green belt he was wearing in one of the scenes but that is neither here nor there.)
I was sad to see that Jim Bullock wasn't in tonight as I had heard great things about him from my friend I am staying with, but Blake Hammond did not dissapoint. I especially loved him in the part of Mr. Pinky.
Loved Chester Gregory II as Seaweed. He had a great voice and his interaction with Penny was hilarious.
The Dynamites blew my socks off. So great! Can't even put into words how much I loved them! (Carla Hardgrove, CJay Hardy, Candice Woods)
Liz Larsen stood in tonight for Julie Halston and I loved her! The first thing that struck me was she had great stage presence but did not stick out when she wasn't supposed to at all. I loved her in all her roles. She was hilarious as Penny's mother. She was crazy and spot on for the gym teacher, and sexy, funny, and forceful as the matron. Each of her roles were very well played and I would have never guessed she played more than one role if I hadn't been paying attention to her listed roles. I didn't even realize she was playing Prudy until after the show. I have a few cds with her on it and have loved her singing so it was great to see her on stage.
Nia Soyemi was good as Little Inez and I absolutely loved Darlene Love as Motormouth! Her voice is amazing.
The cast was very strong overall and had great energy. Not once did the show drag or did I feel like the energy wasn't there. The show is clearly in very good shape right now.
One thing entered my mind as I watched Hairspray. What makes musicals so magical to me is how music tells what cannot be expressed in mere words. Musicals not only have that magic but that magic is an integral part of the plot which transcends it to a place where it could not reach using mere words. It isn't the lighting, or sets, or costumes that move me. They help point me in the right direction but it is the actors, the music, and the plot which provoke you to the point where the show is inside you rather being viewed on a stage 14 rows away. Where emotion and thought blend seamlessly. That is what I think makes a musical great and Hairspray definitely succeeded in that.
(It's late and I'm tired so I hope that this all is well thought out. I am scared I just started rambling and became nonsensical at the end, but tere you go.)
I went to dinner at Barrymore's with the friend I am staying with and three other friends. We also ran into someone else who I was really pleased to meet albeit very briefly but don't want to sound like a name dropper especially when I only briefly met him. From there, I went to the Neil Simon and got seated with about 5 minutes before curtain. I was seated in Row N Seat 7 (left side of the auditorium) but the seats were great. I didn't have any problem seeing anything, though I was a bit miffed because a few rows ahead there were some latecomers who were taking forever during the initial blackout but luckily they go out of the way in time for me to see Tracy (Shannon Durig) begin Good Morning Baltimore. Her energy from beginning to end was wonderful. Shannon had me convinced from moment one that she was Tracy. She was just a ball of energy.
Tracy Miller was hilarious as Penny. Great comedic timing. The pauses after she would say one of her obvious or random statements and the look on her face made me really laugh hard. Also loved how this huge voice comes out of nowhere in You Can't Stop the Beat.
Jonathan Dukowitz was great as Corny Collins. He played Corny very well. There is not too much to say about him since Corny actually doesn't talk too much in the show, but I especially loved how he pulled off the threat to Velma VonTussle while staying sugary sweet.
Becky Gulsvig did well as Amber Von Tussle. A very immature and childish personality that was well suited to the character.
Richard Blake did a great job with Link Larkin. He convincingly and comedically fell in love with Tracy which I did not feel was a very easy thing to pull off. It could have easily been very cheesy and unbelievable if played wrong.
Bruce Vilanch as Edna was comedic gold. He was amazing. He could sit there and not say a word for a good minute at least. Just by slowly moving after Velma insults Tracy in the record store had the entire audience going. Another golden moment was during Timeless to Me while he is sitting there absolutely silent with Wilbur cupping his breasts. He cracked three jokes in the pause and it had the audience laughing good and long. As I said before genius!
Barbara Walsh as Velma did well. I had pictured the part as less cartoonish than she played it. It wasn't overly cartoonish but it was more than I was expecting. (Serves me right for going in with preconceived notions.) It wasn't bad, just a little different than I expected. I enjoyed her.
Todd Susman was hilarious as Wilbur and he fit the part well. (I am pretty sure I own the same green belt he was wearing in one of the scenes but that is neither here nor there.)
I was sad to see that Jim Bullock wasn't in tonight as I had heard great things about him from my friend I am staying with, but Blake Hammond did not dissapoint. I especially loved him in the part of Mr. Pinky.
Loved Chester Gregory II as Seaweed. He had a great voice and his interaction with Penny was hilarious.
The Dynamites blew my socks off. So great! Can't even put into words how much I loved them! (Carla Hardgrove, CJay Hardy, Candice Woods)
Liz Larsen stood in tonight for Julie Halston and I loved her! The first thing that struck me was she had great stage presence but did not stick out when she wasn't supposed to at all. I loved her in all her roles. She was hilarious as Penny's mother. She was crazy and spot on for the gym teacher, and sexy, funny, and forceful as the matron. Each of her roles were very well played and I would have never guessed she played more than one role if I hadn't been paying attention to her listed roles. I didn't even realize she was playing Prudy until after the show. I have a few cds with her on it and have loved her singing so it was great to see her on stage.
Nia Soyemi was good as Little Inez and I absolutely loved Darlene Love as Motormouth! Her voice is amazing.
The cast was very strong overall and had great energy. Not once did the show drag or did I feel like the energy wasn't there. The show is clearly in very good shape right now.
One thing entered my mind as I watched Hairspray. What makes musicals so magical to me is how music tells what cannot be expressed in mere words. Musicals not only have that magic but that magic is an integral part of the plot which transcends it to a place where it could not reach using mere words. It isn't the lighting, or sets, or costumes that move me. They help point me in the right direction but it is the actors, the music, and the plot which provoke you to the point where the show is inside you rather being viewed on a stage 14 rows away. Where emotion and thought blend seamlessly. That is what I think makes a musical great and Hairspray definitely succeeded in that.
(It's late and I'm tired so I hope that this all is well thought out. I am scared I just started rambling and became nonsensical at the end, but tere you go.)
My avatar is a reminder to myself. I need lots of reminders...
Updated On: 8/10/05 at 02:17 AM
#247
Posted: 8/10/05 at 5:16am
"And so goes the market: t'was thus and t'will ever be."
Congrats, kid. You've managed to sound even MORE pretentious than Michael John LaChiusa.
Congrats, kid. You've managed to sound even MORE pretentious than Michael John LaChiusa.
#248
Posted: 8/10/05 at 6:19am
I do sometimes wonder why there isn't anything original on Broadway and when there is it flops, but as a poet I sometimes also wonder if it's possible that everything has been thought of already. I would rather pay $3.75 to rent a movie than $100 to see a broadway production of the same movie. But it seems like there are other show out there, other playwrights who are original ie Brian Lowdermilk and they are simply not produced because they don't have a the mass appeal of Disney or something else already famous.
It's become an industry, not an art form!
It's become an industry, not an art form!
#249
Posted: 8/10/05 at 7:43am
Broadway Musicals have always been an industry. The amount of money they generate for New York City is astonishing. To deny the commerical and industrial force that is the Broadway Musical is ignorance. Only recently in the past 25 years has the turn from commercial to artistic success been in full swing. The problem is not with the industry, the problem is with the focus of that industry.
BSoBW2: I punched Sondheim in the face after I saw Wicked and said, "Why couldn't you write like that!?"
#250
Posted: 8/10/05 at 9:03am
EnchantedHunter...
I see some of your points regarding Broadway and advancing the art form. However the flip side of that is shows like Avenue Q etc probably would have never made it to Broadway without establishing itself in a nuturing environment off broadway first. Like SOAT said...Broadway musicals are an industry and Producers are not usually willing to throw their money at a show that's considered a big risk.
Is this is a good thing? I don't think so. But it's also nothing new.
I read MJL's article and agree with some others on here that why he does have some valid points the article seems to go around in circles. I certainly don't think using Hairspray as an example is justified. Just because the music/lyrics from Hairspray is catchy and funny doesn't mean it's also not intellegent and clever. Since when have these two things become mutually exclusive?
I also don't agree that Hairspray is a send up of Broadway musicals. If anything it's a send up/tribute to a certain period of music. In fact, the only part of Hairspray that I DON'T like is when Edna stops and makes riffs on current pop culture (Harry Potter, Britney Spears, etc) during Timeless to Me. That makes sense in a show like Spamalot...but seems jarring and out of place in Hairspray.
I see some of your points regarding Broadway and advancing the art form. However the flip side of that is shows like Avenue Q etc probably would have never made it to Broadway without establishing itself in a nuturing environment off broadway first. Like SOAT said...Broadway musicals are an industry and Producers are not usually willing to throw their money at a show that's considered a big risk.
Is this is a good thing? I don't think so. But it's also nothing new.
I read MJL's article and agree with some others on here that why he does have some valid points the article seems to go around in circles. I certainly don't think using Hairspray as an example is justified. Just because the music/lyrics from Hairspray is catchy and funny doesn't mean it's also not intellegent and clever. Since when have these two things become mutually exclusive?
I also don't agree that Hairspray is a send up of Broadway musicals. If anything it's a send up/tribute to a certain period of music. In fact, the only part of Hairspray that I DON'T like is when Edna stops and makes riffs on current pop culture (Harry Potter, Britney Spears, etc) during Timeless to Me. That makes sense in a show like Spamalot...but seems jarring and out of place in Hairspray.
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