Pacific Overtures- Page 10
Pacific Overtures
henrikegerman
Broadway Legend Joined: 4/29/05
#225Pacific Overtures
Posted: 2/6/15 at 2:21pm
I was of the opinion that this was one of those myriad score is light years ahead of the show Sondheim musicals. But once in a blue moon I find myself revisiting that position when I finally see a production of, e.g., Night Music or Company, that finally speaks to me, that intelligently refuses to emphasize the rarefied (let's the rarefied speak for itself) and finds the human not only in the concept but in the characters and the story.
For me, the National Theatre of Japan's production of Pacific Overtures did exactly that. It was one of the most memorable performances of a musical I've ever seen. It made my heart soar.
Updated On: 2/6/15 at 02:21 PM
#226Pacific Overtures
Posted: 2/6/15 at 4:45pmI'd listened to the score before, but I finally watched the full show a few days ago -- I was in a Mako mood because I've been rewatching Avatar: The Last Airbender -- and it keeps lingering in my mind. Really different and remarkable.
#227Pacific Overtures
Posted: 2/6/15 at 7:05pmFantod, it's very possible not to like Gilbert (and Sullivan). I find G&S twee, overwrought, and embarrassing.
Fantod
Broadway Legend Joined: 10/3/14
#228Pacific Overtures
Posted: 2/6/15 at 7:08pmWow. I always thought G&S were considered the indisputable masters of their genre like Victor Herbert. I personally adore everything they have ever written (of which there is a cast album; I can't speak for their unrecorded works)
#229Pacific Overtures
Posted: 2/6/15 at 7:37pmI think Sondheim was a little unfair to Alan Jay Lerner and Lorenz Hart in his book (though his points about them are valid, however much I may disagree with some of them), but not to W.S. Gilbert. At all.
#230Pacific Overtures
Posted: 2/6/15 at 7:39pm
I also thought they were the most highly regarded writers of operettas.
The Mikado is pretty near perfect.
....but the world goes 'round
Fantod
Broadway Legend Joined: 10/3/14
#231Pacific Overtures
Posted: 2/6/15 at 7:44pm
Yes it is.
And I think Hart was a better lyricist than Sondheim
#232Pacific Overtures
Posted: 2/6/15 at 7:55pm
^^^On what basis, Fantod? I love Hart, but I can't think of anything he could do that Sondheim can't do at least as well.
As for G&S, they didn't write "operettas", they wrote "comic operas". And the tone of the lyrics following accordingly. Just as they did in the best Yip Harburg scores.
#233Pacific Overtures
Posted: 2/6/15 at 8:04pm
Larry Hart, like most of the lyricists of his era (save perhaps for Hammerstein), wrote songs that were extensions of himself. I don't think he could have written SWEENEY TODD, PACIFIC OVERTURES, or INTO THE WOODS with their unique characters. Those shows don't take place in Turtle Bay, that's for sure. So that's why he's not a better lyricist.
Also, Hart, unfortunately, could be a sloppy craftsman when it came to scansion. There are misaccents galore in his lyrics-- even the best ones, and rhymes for a rhyme's sake in many, too. Of course, he was brilliant and witty and wrote wonderful songs, but there's no denying this. I'm sorry. So that's also why he's not a better lyricist.
#234Pacific Overtures
Posted: 2/6/15 at 8:12pm
Well put, jv92. I should confess I love Hart despite--or maybe because of--his faults.
But the real miracle-worker was Rodgers! That he could so perfectly set two such opposite lyricists as Hart and Hammerstein is the ultimate proof of what Sondheim called Rodgers' "infinite talent".
Fantod
Broadway Legend Joined: 10/3/14
#235Pacific Overtures
Posted: 2/6/15 at 8:13pmI should have phrased that differently, I personally like his lyrics more than Sondheim's. Sorry.
Showface
Broadway Legend Joined: 6/25/14
#236Pacific Overtures
Posted: 2/6/15 at 8:19pmThough I may not love *all* of his shows, I still think he is one of the msot if not the most ingenious lyricists. The way that he can get into a character's head and not shy away from human nature is brilliant. And many of them are just flat out clever just because: "while her withers wither with her"--just amazing!
Showface
Broadway Legend Joined: 6/25/14
Fantod
Broadway Legend Joined: 10/3/14
#239Pacific Overtures
Posted: 2/6/15 at 8:21pmI feel that some of Sondheim's lyrics are too self conscious, whereas Hart's seem more effortless. Just a personal opinion, like I said. I don't dislike Sondheim's lyrics usually, though.
Showface
Broadway Legend Joined: 6/25/14
#241Pacific Overtures
Posted: 2/6/15 at 8:25pm
Showface, you did. I was talking with Fantod. We both posted at the same time it seems.
Fantod, you can disagree of course, I think rhyming words like "company" and "bump a knee" is pretty damn self-conscious. "Ballroom" and "my chilly hall room"-- pushing for the rhyme. Lyrics aren't all about the rhyme. But Hart didn't do this nearly as much as George Gershwin's less talented brother, Ira.
(I know, I know. LADY BE GOOD is playing this weekend, and I'm really excited to see it, too.)
I don't want to seem like I'm quizzing you, but could you give an example of where you find Sondheim self-conscious.
#242Pacific Overtures
Posted: 2/6/15 at 8:33pm
As for G&S, they didn't write "operettas", they wrote "comic operas"
What's the difference?
....but the world goes 'round
#243Pacific Overtures
Posted: 2/6/15 at 9:02pm
"I personally adore everything they have ever written (of which there is a cast album; I can't speak for their unrecorded works)"
Even The Grand Duke?
#244Pacific Overtures
Posted: 2/6/15 at 9:05pmI assume, though I think the terms are up for debate, Gaveston means that G&S wrote their topsy/turvey comic operas. The lyrics then are meant to be heard and their cleverness a big part of the appeal/humour. This is not remotely as true of the more European (as in the continent) operetta tradition (that to some extent existed in 1920s Broadway shows like Rose Marie--where the lyrics certainly are not meant to compete with Gilbert.)
#245Pacific Overtures
Posted: 2/6/15 at 9:37pm
Ah, thank you for explaining that Eric.
....but the world goes 'round
After Eight
Broadway Legend Joined: 6/5/09
#246Pacific Overtures
Posted: 2/6/15 at 11:49pm
"How is it even possible to hold Gilbert in very low regard? "
Just consider the source.
After Eight
Broadway Legend Joined: 6/5/09
#247Pacific Overtures
Posted: 2/6/15 at 11:59pm
"And I think Hart was a better lyricist than Sondheim."
Unquestionably.
It's like comparing Secretariat to a pack mule.
"And I think Hart was a better lyricist than Sondheim."
Along with countless others.
Fantod
Broadway Legend Joined: 10/3/14
#248Pacific Overtures
Posted: 2/7/15 at 12:12am
jv92, sorry it took me so long to respond, but I actually wanted to think about my response before posting. I think Hart's lyrics just have a sense of silliness and fun that Sondheim's lyrics don't have that makes me find Sondheim's lyrics more self conscious than Hart's. However, neither is a bad lyricist and Sondheim's lyrics for Gypsy rival the best.
Updated On: 2/7/15 at 12:12 AM
#249Pacific Overtures
Posted: 2/7/15 at 12:28am
Sondheim doesn't have fun/silly lyrics? Have you not listened to the score of FORUM? Many of the pastiche numbers in FOLLIES? Parts of WHISTLE? Parts of MERRILY?
It's a hit, it's a hit
Will my folks have a fit
After all of that baloney they made me go through
All that "honey, not that he's a phony, but what does he do?"
Will their faces be stony
When they see on their Sony
Someone handing the phony
The Tony Award
Updated On: 2/7/15 at 12:28 AM
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